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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 14:43 Gr1dlock wrote:
I think this was all blown WAY out of proportion. It's so unfortunate that such a decent caster can have his dream silenced before it has a chance to even grow. Yes he should present himself in a more professional manner but is there no second chance? Really? This is just a very stupid event that ended horribly.
Well, I think he presented himself in a professional manner, he just got fired for what he did in his spare time.
This is actually rather simple for me, kids life got destroyed because sponsors got angry, and of couse EG choose the money.
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I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl.
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nice write up KP Chibsquad;)
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On March 09 2012 14:39 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:28 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. Modern here meaning extremely patronizing and over-reactive. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. It continues to amaze the hell out of me that the people at the front lines (e.g. Alex) are invariably white and seem to be under the impression that there are massive racial problems going on in language. You really care about racism (not just Alex, but people in this thread in general)? Go to Detroit or a poor inner-city area and start trying to fix the problems where they actually are. Stop the cycle of poverty that breeds division between races. Nobody is going to criticize you for that. But people do get mad when people who would otherwise probably not participate in any social activism whatsoever 'stand up against racism' (see: this situation) and act like some great moral victory has been won. To me, it's just condescending nonsense, and while Alex's post is academic (though I can't say his style is very endearing) it's still just 21st century post-modernism coming out in force and is basically the manifestation of an extreme desire to see no one ever offended for anything, regardless of whether they have much grounds to feel offense. Cute theory. Now go to Detroit and see if caucasians or african americans are more offended by your use of that epithet. Does it matter? Even a black person who takes offense to someone casually stating a racial slur (i.e. one that is not maliciously directed at them) is overreacting. It's a little more acceptable because of extenuating circumstances (e.g. they being black, if they're from a situation of having experienced racism etc. etc.) but they are nonetheless wrong to take offense, because what they should be opposed to is racism viz. racists, not terminology that reminds them of racism. Are you kidding me? A word that has been used in leiu of a whip for generations, a word that retains it's terrible power more than a century after the end of slavery , a word that still symbolizes the very real systematic racism present in our society, is something that people shouldn't be offended by, because it isn't racist? How should someone be able to tell the difference between a non-racist person who casually uses the words and tools of racists, and actual racists? Incredible to me that you find fault with the people who are taking offense, instead of at the person who has casually trodden across the sorest and most devastating sociological fault line in this country. We're not talking about some fantasy land. We're talking about real life; this planet in 2012, where that word is incredibly offensive, and with excellent reason, because the inequalities that it perpetuated are still in existence, just in different forms. Take your fairytale elsewhere.
Out comes the token condescension coupled with bafflingly hyperbolic imagery. Let's get real. Yeah, racism exists, but it definitely isn't because of the word "nigger." In fact, it has essentially nothing to do with the word "nigger."
I find fault with the people being offended because they're the ones making sure that "sociological fault line" never closes, instead allowing it to remain a scar. The inequalities that it perpetuated? What? See, this is what happens when you're needlessly melodramatic: you start saying stuff that doesn't make any sense. The word nigger never perpetuated anything. It's a word. Racists who used it were racists before using it and racists afterward.
The rest of your post is a generic assortment of moralizing, flowery prose, and flatly ridiculous analogies/metaphors. How would I tell the difference between a racist and a non-racist? Uh, definitely not by checking whether they use the N word. How about investigating their lifestyle and interactions with actual minorities? Is that too difficult? Oh, but I suppose we wouldn't be able to judge the shit out of as many people that way. Brb Orb is apparently perpetuating hatred of black people whilst metaphorically whipping them. Please.
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On March 09 2012 14:46 lucasfz wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl.
How do you even know the people Orb called "nigger" were all white? What if some of them were black? Does that change your view of the situation? Should it matter?
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On March 09 2012 14:42 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:36 iloveAthene wrote:On March 09 2012 14:35 Protosnake wrote:On March 09 2012 14:34 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:30 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:27 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist. Inherently racist, how interesting... Any part of that which you aren't getting sweetheart? Yeah, I don't understand how a word can be inherently racist.... The word has been used as a racial slur for centuries, was created as a racial slur and has no other accepted meaning. Thus it's inherently racist. Not very difficult to understand. No. The word was created to depict the color black. simply not true I'm sorry but it's simply is. Negra Negre Nigger have been used in Europe to depict the color black way before the discovery of Africa. Obviously this doesnt mean that the word doesnt have strong racial connotation today, but it mean that calling it "Inherently racist" is a proof of ignorance.
I have to agree
The French word "nègre" was also used by people opposing slavery or defending black and white equality in France.
You could also think of Senghor's concept of "negritude" to show a more modern reappropriation of the word.
Which still not means calling someone a nigger is ok.
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The stuff that passes for drama in this 'community' is absolutely pathetic.
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On March 09 2012 14:45 Soma Cruz wrote:
I agree with Destiny's post he made on Reddit about this. EG has gone way too far here.
Not surprising considering he pretty much falls under the same category of immaturity. He doesn`t care about the growth of the scene. It is one of the reasons Spanishiwa stated he dislikes about the scene, its because of guys who always need to talk shit and act like children.
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On March 09 2012 14:40 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:34 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:30 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:27 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist. Inherently racist, how interesting... Any part of that which you aren't getting sweetheart? Yeah, I don't understand how a word can be inherently racist.... The word has been used as a racial slur for centuries, was created as a racial slur and has no other accepted meaning. Thus it's inherently racist. Not very difficult to understand. Except language isn't that cut and dry. Contextually speaking there a number of factors that come into play that determine the meaning of a word to a recipient. Words are rarely if anything inherently anything.
In what context is the term 'nigger' not considered racist?
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On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there.
yeah he 'gives him a stern talking too!'
What a joke, ruin some kids career over some ladder rage. We act like esports is going to suffer if justice isn't done swiftly. News flash, nobody cares about this and nobody is covering it. You aren't going to see the MSN headline that 'starcraft caster used racial slur in a videogame match' anywhere and EG isn't going to lose sponsors. Way to ruin a kids career over something like I said earlier 99.9% of gamers online have done or said. Way to take the 'moral' high road that doesn't exist.
Orbs career didn't deserve such a harsh blow and then when people point out the obvious double standard with idra.
"@beesinyoface yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know."
Wow, bravo, well done. Now it's all so clear. I hope that all those fucking drama maniacs that poured over orb's posting history and vod saves do the same thing for idra. All the people that cried for orb's expulsion to EG's sponsors do the same thing but replace orb with idra. Because if you go digging you're going to find far worse stuff said in rage from idra then you ever have from orb. I hope the fervor is the same.
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Wonderful! Now every public figure in the SC2 community that's not self-employed will have to carefully control his language, not just in situations where's he's expected to act professionally, but also when he's just laddering for his own enjoyment. Soon enough being a public SC2 figure will be like being a politician, everything they do will be scrutinized for signs of immoral behavior.
Yes, racist and homophobic language is disgusting. No, firing someone over the use of said disgusting language outside of his job is not a good idea. Is this the SC2 scene you people really want to create?
Orb is obviously a lying little shit, and I personally wouldn't want to work with someone like him, and EG has obviously been subjected to enormous pressure to fire him, so I don't really blame them, but this era of enforced political correctness that's beginning to dawn upon SC2 professional gaming is just sickening.
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Can understand where Alex is coming from, EG's sponsors will in no way want their brand associated with this kind of negative pr and that word, especially, so I can understand him doing what he did for the good of the team. Celebrities learned this lesson awhile ago but for the common player turned progamer (or caster, writer, etc), they always need to have a positive light to themselves when they're in the public eye. Props to EG for taking a moral stand and best of luck to both sides.
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On March 09 2012 14:45 Soma Cruz wrote:
I agree with Destiny's post he made on Reddit about this. EG has gone way too far here.
Destiny has been a career, if not life-supporter of racial/sexual slurs and has no problem justifying his use by standing behind the current of context... yet, he simply doesn't care about the words actually being used and their implicit denotations... not to mention that most of his close black friends don't care either... all in all, he's probably the worst source for any logical argument on racism.
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did The Beatles create the 60s or did the 60s create The Beatles? =( you can argue either way, but just don't hate on The Beatles.
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On March 09 2012 14:35 Protosnake wrote:
No. The word was created to depict the color black.
The history of its usage - particularly in the United States is one tied to the literal ownership of people, and later their lynching in public square with the consent of law enforcement. It is a history of state sponsored terrorism. It is a blight on our history and to casually use the word now saying that its meaning is a general curse word is just plain ignorant of that history. It has become so normalized in the gaming community that maybe to some people it really is only a general curse word, but you don't get to use ignorance of the history as an excuse.
I've seen just about every justification possible in this thread, but I am sorry, its just not acceptable to use this kind of language. I refuse to give Destiny any views. Orb has issues an apology which is acceptable to me for now, but EG absolutely had to let him go for this. Maybe this community is so cloistered that many people here really feel that it wasn't a serious issue. Maybe as gamers we take pride in not being mainstream in some cases, not having to be politically correct, and the history of anonymity on the internet probably adds to this. But we are real people and our words matter.
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On March 09 2012 14:46 tetsuo9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:43 Gr1dlock wrote:
I think this was all blown WAY out of proportion. It's so unfortunate that such a decent caster can have his dream silenced before it has a chance to even grow. Yes he should present himself in a more professional manner but is there no second chance? Really? This is just a very stupid event that ended horribly. Well, I think he presented himself in a professional manner, he just got fired for what he did in his spare time. This is actually rather simple for me, kids life got destroyed because sponsors got angry, and of couse EG choose the money.
Public figures these days are held accountable a lot of the time for what they do in their spare time. I can give you numerous examples from my own favourite sport. I sometimes don't agree with what they're held accountable for, but in this case I side with EG.
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thank you all for ruining the career of a great caster. be very proud of yourselves for making his life miserable. the standard has now been set, i expect to see no exception from this point on
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On March 09 2012 14:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:39 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:28 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. Modern here meaning extremely patronizing and over-reactive. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. It continues to amaze the hell out of me that the people at the front lines (e.g. Alex) are invariably white and seem to be under the impression that there are massive racial problems going on in language. You really care about racism (not just Alex, but people in this thread in general)? Go to Detroit or a poor inner-city area and start trying to fix the problems where they actually are. Stop the cycle of poverty that breeds division between races. Nobody is going to criticize you for that. But people do get mad when people who would otherwise probably not participate in any social activism whatsoever 'stand up against racism' (see: this situation) and act like some great moral victory has been won. To me, it's just condescending nonsense, and while Alex's post is academic (though I can't say his style is very endearing) it's still just 21st century post-modernism coming out in force and is basically the manifestation of an extreme desire to see no one ever offended for anything, regardless of whether they have much grounds to feel offense. Cute theory. Now go to Detroit and see if caucasians or african americans are more offended by your use of that epithet. Does it matter? Even a black person who takes offense to someone casually stating a racial slur (i.e. one that is not maliciously directed at them) is overreacting. It's a little more acceptable because of extenuating circumstances (e.g. they being black, if they're from a situation of having experienced racism etc. etc.) but they are nonetheless wrong to take offense, because what they should be opposed to is racism viz. racists, not terminology that reminds them of racism. Are you kidding me? A word that has been used in leiu of a whip for generations, a word that retains it's terrible power more than a century after the end of slavery , a word that still symbolizes the very real systematic racism present in our society, is something that people shouldn't be offended by, because it isn't racist? How should someone be able to tell the difference between a non-racist person who casually uses the words and tools of racists, and actual racists? Incredible to me that you find fault with the people who are taking offense, instead of at the person who has casually trodden across the sorest and most devastating sociological fault line in this country. We're not talking about some fantasy land. We're talking about real life; this planet in 2012, where that word is incredibly offensive, and with excellent reason, because the inequalities that it perpetuated are still in existence, just in different forms. Take your fairytale elsewhere. Out comes the token condescension coupled with bafflingly hyperbolic imagery. Let's get real. Yeah, racism exists, but it definitely isn't because of the word "nigger." In fact, it has essentially nothing to do with the word "nigger." I find fault with the people being offended because they're the ones making sure that "sociological fault line" never closes, instead allowing it to remain a scar. The inequalities that it perpetuated? What? See, this is what happens when you're needlessly melodramatic: you start saying stuff that doesn't make any sense. The word nigger never perpetuated anything. It's a word. Racists who used it were racists before using it and racists afterward. The rest of your post is a generic assortment of moralizing, flowery prose, and flatly ridiculous analogies/metaphors. How would I tell the difference between a racist and a non-racist? Uh, definitely not by checking whether they use the N word. How about investigating their lifestyle and interactions with actual minorities? Is that too difficult? Oh, but I suppose we wouldn't be able to judge the shit out of as many people that way. Brb Orb is apparently perpetuating hatred of black people whilst metaphorically whipping them. Please.
Somebody just got destroyed! Fantastic post.
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lol so ridiculous, alex is a joke
User was warned for this post
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Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant.
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EPT
