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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
So guess what guys? If we're setting precedents(as many people in this thread have been saying) then HayprO & Dragon should be kicked off their teams for 'cheating' in the past.. right?
Grow some balls EG, you got your fame from this but there was absolutely no need to dismiss someone for something they did BEFORE they joined you. I swear the amount of shit coming out of the community and now finally EG is way off what should be acceptable. LoL has less drama then this shit of a community. Did you guys even bother to check Orbs background? Ohh right no, you guys could of been hiring an ex-con for rape and murder. It's just an excuse and your own fault. I think the amount of backlash you're getting is appropriate for the amount of bullshit you've done.
Sure the whole 'lieing' to EG could of set some contraversy but you didn't even put it in your statement. So now it makes you look like he was fired from saying a single word: Nigger.
And EG's statement on IdrA? Why didn't they instantly release him like they did with Orb? Faggot is just as offensive as Nigger and yet they let IdrA off with a slap on the wrist WHILE he was wearing THEIR tag and jersey. What a hypocritical two faced company.
I feel so sorry for Orb for having his dreams crushed by such an organization that is EG. All of this is just to cover their balls from their sponsors.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't just an EG hate post. What a dick move by the community itself to message the sponsors without even hearing both sides of the story. What was the point of even crushing this young lads dream before it even started anyways? Some kid who is sadistic and wants to see people crash and burn? Why'd the community even delve deeper to find more evidence that Orb used nigger and faggot more? Sure he used it, what relevance is it if it was before he was even contracted to EG? If someone is going to be judged and eventually acquitted for their past, I think everyone should be. Also, great way to grow E-sports by ostracising someone who is counted as one of the top analytical casters AND acted professionally when he was on the job. Who cares what he does in his free time? Even more, who cared what he did in his past.
The community has killed talent before it could bloom this very day. Good work everyone, pat yourselves on the shoulder.
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I don`t understand why people are getting mad at the people complaining to the sponsors. Lets not forget it would never have gotten to that point if EG did more research about the kind of character Orb is, as he was always a ladder rager for some time now. Obviously it isn`t wise to send your complaints to the sponsor before getting a response from EG, but not all the blame should be on the community.
Also to add, majority of people seem to think the "witchhunt" is hurting esports and in getting sponsors, but if we don`t wise up now, it would come back later. you think you can hide things like this from sponsors all the time?
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On March 09 2012 13:37 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:32 ZessiM wrote:On March 09 2012 13:27 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:On March 09 2012 13:15 EcksperT wrote:
I don't know what exactly caused the outrage... but I do not think it had anything to do with the community's "core values." Look no further than Destiny defending the fact that he says "nigger" and those who championed him for that or no one caring when HuK said it on twitter to his tens of thousands of followers. This is not a proud day. There was no comcomitance of morals amongst Starcraft Players. I believe this incident was nothing more than people creating drama for the sake of drama. This is an insightful post. Do you guys remember the SotG where Destiny and InControl spent 2 hours talking about how the term "nigger" became a generic insult? That was met with some controversy, but the fact is that nigger doesn't mean what it used to. Stop treating it like it does It's what people say when they rage, not when they want to insult a black guy. Same with faggot. Treating orb this way this just reinforces the stigma associated with the words, when it shouldn't even exist anymore. Orb lied. that should be the reason why you fired him, not because hes been calling people niggers and faggots since the beta. You lost a passionate caster today EG, and while you gained some fans, you lost quite a few as well. I'm not mad a EG, I understand that they needed to do this from a business standpoint to appease the masses. I find it hard to believe that nobody from EG had ever tuned into one of orbs streams before where he swears, because its rather frequent. Rather, I think that nobody from EG cared. I'm mad at the starcraft and reddit community. Nobody gives a fuck if orb calls someone a nigger on the stream. If they do, then why does destiny have free reign to do it whenever he wants to? Nobody gives a fuck if orb calls someone a faggot on his stream. If they do, then why does Idra have free reign to do it whenever he wants to? You guys helped ruin someone's life today, I hope you're happy with it. Words don't just change meanings. The word may have gained a new usage, and therefore perhaps a new meaning, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a very offensive word to a large majority of people. Until now, being in the public eye you wouldn't need to have consideration of this stuff. Orb has been made an example of. A precedent has been set. The funny thing about the word "nigger" is that it seems to offend white people more than black people. To all the people in support of Alex's view point (and to Alex himself), what are your opinions on black rappers/comedians/people using the word freely and without consequence?
I'd say they either have a different audience where the alternative usage is more common or they are trying to make a statement.
Still doesn't make it suitable for frequent, public usage
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On March 09 2012 14:28 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:26 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. Modern here meaning extremely patronizing and over-reactive. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. It continues to amaze the hell out of me that the people at the front lines (e.g. Alex) are invariably white and seem to be under the impression that there are massive racial problems going on in language. You really care about racism (not just Alex, but people in this thread in general)? Go to Detroit or a poor inner-city area and start trying to fix the problems where they actually are. Stop the cycle of poverty that breeds division between races. Nobody is going to criticize you for that. But people do get mad when people who would otherwise probably not participate in any social activism whatsoever 'stand up against racism' (see: this situation) and act like some great moral victory has been won. To me, it's just condescending nonsense, and while Alex's post is academic (though I can't say his style is very endearing) it's still just 21st century post-modernism coming out in force and is basically the manifestation of an extreme desire to see no one ever offended for anything, regardless of whether they have much grounds to feel offense. Cute theory. Now go to Detroit and see if caucasians or african americans are more offended by your use of that epithet. Does it matter? Even a black person who takes offense to someone casually stating a racial slur (i.e. one that is not maliciously directed at them) is overreacting. It's a little more acceptable because of extenuating circumstances (e.g. they being black, if they're from a situation of having experienced racism etc. etc.) but they are nonetheless wrong to take offense, because what they should be opposed to is racism viz. racists, not terminology that reminds them of racism.
If it doesn't matter, why did you say " You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people."? Do you still agree with that -- it seems like you don't because you didn't actually say what you thought the results would be, but I don't know.
Second, orb was not casually stating a racial slur as you define it -- he was maliciously directing it toward his opponent. Maybe you meant something else, but are you agreeing that it's okay for people to be offended by what orb did?
Last, why do you think it's wrong for people to be offended if you say "nigger" around them? "Nigger" isn't terminology that reminds people of racism -- "Klan member" is. "Nigger" is the strongest racial epithet in America. I don't think many people in this thread are claiming that people should be offended that someone types nigger like we are doing, or says it in similar context, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about calling people niggers.
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I think this was all blown WAY out of proportion. It's so unfortunate that such a decent caster can have his dream silenced before it has a chance to even grow. Yes he should present himself in a more professional manner but is there no second chance? Really? This is just a very stupid event that ended horribly.
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On March 09 2012 14:41 ozzy1346 wrote:
lol he rages in ladder and you people strip the man of his livlihood? so dumb, nigger hardly means shit these days, its the same as fag and gay. people dont use them offensively towards blacks and homosexuals, they use it when they rage. same thing if i get bunker rushed and i say ''go fuck yourself you fucking dildolicking douchebag''.
Nobody is throwing him in jail and he's not going to go starving on the streets. Also good luck getting a job at EG I guess?
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On March 09 2012 14:23 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. This is just... have you ever said the word "nigger" in the hearing of a group of black people? How did they react?
I might make a bigger post later on but I kinda have to add my experiences at this point:
I have met, multiple times, black people who got called "Black, oh, sorry, I meant afro-american", just to tell the person who pulled that off "Dude, I'm proud to be a fucking nigger - and those who ain't are white pussies."
I've also met jews who are fine when someone says "Wow, stop being so jewish" when they don't spend a lot of money or find ways to make some.
I have also met gay people who said "DID YOU ASK IF IM HOMOSEXUAL? I'M A GAY, FABULOUS FAGGOT. PROBLEM, BITCH?"
In ALL those cases the people who called out someone else for the original statement (whether it's nigger/jew/faggot) had nothing to do with them. They were random, politically correct bystanders. From my experiences most of the minorities who get called names by others embrace being called like that. It is, for those who I met and am friends with, a part of their personal identity.
In my opinion, if a random bystander decides to be offended while the person who COULD be offended is not that innocent bystander is the racist person. He forces his own personal believes as to how someone who is part of a different group should be called onto them. That's equivalent to trying to tell someone that he should be offended for your own personal reasons.
As an example if an American says "STOP BEING SO GODDAMN KRAUT" to me and an Italian points out that it's not politically correct to make such a statement, I'd tell the Italian that it's none of his business to tell me what I should be offended about and what not. Why? Because that plain statement implies that I am not capable of dealing with the situation myself and is therefore insulting me.
My point being: If black people are offended by such a statement, they have all the right in the world to complain and I'm PRETTY DAMN SURE that (since it was never intended to be racist and that's where the line should be drawn) that a person being called out for that would apologize and try better in the future. If he doesn't he is... well... kinda hard to not use a word that is not insulting to anyone if I'd like to be ABSOLUTELY politically correct. If I say "stupid" I could get called out for being stupidophobic.
PS: If you are able to find a single noun that would describe a person which does not possibly offend a single person on this planet... please tell me about it. There has to be a place where a line has to be drawn and I suggest that line to be context and intent. Not the plain usage of a word.
Words are tools. No tool is inherently good or bad. It's up to the people who use them that defines if it's being used in a malicious context or not.
(So much for "a bigger post later on" -.- ... gg.)
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On March 09 2012 14:43 Gr1dlock wrote:
I think this was all blown WAY out of proportion. It's so unfortunate that such a decent caster can have his dream silenced before it has a chance to even grow. Yes he should present himself in a more professional manner but is there no second chance? Really? This is just a very stupid event that ended horribly.
What do you mean second chance? Just because he isn't with EG doesn't mean he's never going to cast ever again. He's going to fit in fine if he decides to switch to fighting games.
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On March 09 2012 14:39 Karmablah wrote:
I wonder how this would have played out if he didn't lie when questioned and simply apologized.
If he right away came out and apologized and said how stupid he was to do it then I think he'd still have a job. An apology goes a long way. There have been athletes kicked out of leagues for similar things who have apologized and have gotten a second try. I think it would've changed everything. He straight up lied and tried to cover it up and that's the worst thing you could ever do in this situation.
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Hope you guys can move forward. Best of luck ~
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i understand the clueless europeans not understanding this decision, but lol at all the childish, racist orb fans from the south and midwest acting all outraged in this thread
User was temp banned for this post.
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I agree with Destiny's post he made on Reddit about this. EG has gone way too far here.
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On March 09 2012 14:45 Soma Cruz wrote:
I agree with Destiny's post he made on Reddit about this. EG has gone way too far here.
Mind linking or quoting it here?
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Anyone that is relevant in the SC2 scene that streams, or participates in shows, or interacts with the community in any way are walking on egg shells right now.
One wrong move and they will have their shit put on blast.
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Is this thread seriously 50 pages of people trying to argue that two wrongs make a right?
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On March 09 2012 14:40 kineticSYN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there. yes, i saw that, and that's exactly my point. give priority and special treatment to a profitable individual, while immediately terminating someone else off of something he's done while not in any relation to EG idra speaks his mind and blatantly uses the term 'faggot' in interviews while wearing the EG jersey, and then moments later give the whole "thanks to my 10 billion sponsors" see what im sayin?
Ive watched most, if not all of IdrA's interviews, Ive NEVER heard him use the word faggot in an interview. Prove me wrong or you should edit your post because its probably incorrect.
I actually haven't seen idra use any controversial terms in quite a long time. Sounds like Alex's talk with him worked.
Also if we really want to get political, I havent seen idra's word usage whip up a storm like Orb's did. Therefore, were not seeing immature and harmful messages directed at EG's sponsors regarding Idras outbursts like we are with Orb. Its really unfortunate but thats what happened.
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Also, if Orb was eloquent with his BM, he'd be tits up in paradise... simply replace your standard racial slur with rainbow donkey, such as:
"Oh my, sir, you have injected such a terrible amount of rage and fury into my person right now! You are a flaming rainbow donkey who buys shirts half-off at Goodwill... and you smell of rotten potatoes. Goodbye!"
See? Effective, but nicely mannered BM...
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Well this is unfortunate, I enjoyed ORB as a caster.
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On March 09 2012 14:40 Pasargadae wrote:
While this community may appear to be more mature and educated than others, this mob mentality is indicative of quite the contrary. This situation has clearly shown the extreme biases of both the community and EG; as many have already pointed out, pejorative terms embodying homophobic and sexist sentiment are overlooked, while expletives with sensitive (and mostly American) racist connotations are overly chastised in proportion. My opinion on EG's particular decision to release Orb is rather apathetic, but the prejudice demonstrated in this outcome clearly parallels deeper, intrinsic ones.
Many people may claim "justice" was served, but this is ludicrously ignorant. Despite justice being mostly an opinion, there is a strong harken to egalitarianism, a rather lofty ideal this community desperately lacks.
Have to agree. Just looking through some of the crap in the General forum really indicates the real level of "intellectualism" and "maturity" and "open mindedness" that the Starcraft community exhibits.
Starcraft is an intellectual game. Playing it and being good at it as well as typing "gg", however, in no way indicates SC players as being any different than other gamers who frankly deserve the poor reputations they have. Take Bobby Fischer as an example; great at chess, but he was also a crazy Anti-Semite.
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I read every word. I think this is exactly what we needed to hear from you. Hopefully, you, your team, and your sponsors don't have to pay the price for this. I'd also like to say thank you to orb for his heartfelt apology. I don't have anything against orb personally, but obviously an organization like EG can't really let this go. Hopefully people take his apology very seriously, and he finds the work he's qualified to do.
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EPT
