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n00b1n8R
Australia45 Posts
However, when I'm offracing on NA (my account is low silver). I can feel when I'm playing a bronze player, everything is so slow and clumsy and their decisions often make no sense. Just do whatever you were going to do a minute faster (like expanding) and you'll do much better  | ||
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
however i want to know, if you have that many games under your belt, you shouldn't really be in bronze league. just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout. | ||
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freakhill
Japan463 Posts
This is hard for many people. And it is unfunny to spam the same build for many others. | ||
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Shadowcloak
Netherlands194 Posts
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago. I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way". There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'. While true that Golds are getting better that means that Diamond are getting better as well. Essentially if everyone improves, the skill difference between a Diamond and a Gold is still huge. I've done some practice matches vs a few of my teams lowest members (Gold community members) because they insist to play someone higher to improve. Every game has been a landslide win. Gold players still have the same problems they had a year, their macro still needs a lot of work and unit comp is still God awful. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On March 08 2012 19:12 freakhill wrote: "just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout. " This is hard for many people. And it is unfunny to spam the same build for many others. Yeah, this is my problem. The idea of just doing the same build, particularly some kind of all-in, doesn't interest me. I just concentrate on spending my money, scouting, and playing as fast as possible. I'm sure if I all-in-ed more I can fluke my way up the ranks ... but it's just not my idea of fun.  | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Also people dropping down in league with leaving mess up the advancement system. | ||
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Vallz
41 Posts
On March 08 2012 19:24 FeyFey wrote: bronze got better, just like some here said, i enjoy going down there playing mouse only from time to time. I actual had great games in bronze when people played around with burrow and all the fun stuff, which you see rarely from gold to master. (there its more this one build macro stuff, which is really easy to beat as its easy to predict). Also people dropping down in league with leaving mess up the advancement system. Bro, I get burrowed almost all TvZ's in Master^^ | ||
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Metak
296 Posts
Now I slowly start playing more in general, my mechanics get better and I get a better sense for the game. I forget to scout alot which is a huge issue, as well as the usual 'macro better' problem. When I'm in a proper flow I get big winstreaks, when I overthink stuff I lose. I get the idea that the level of lower leagues has improved as the game aged, which isn't a strange development. Ofcourse we're still 'bad' compared to higher level players, our build execution sucks and we don't have any sense of timing, but back in bronze I barely encountered an opponent that had no clue at all. | ||
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be. No, they aren't. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
Some have mentioned that yes, Bronze level has improved, yet so have the others, but without numbers in front of me, I think it's safe to say that of the people who have stopped playing, most of them have been from Bronze league. If the %'s remain constant through the seasons, then the skill in Bronze league HAS to improve for that reason alone, not even considering the additional impact of simple player improvement over time. | ||
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ScienceNotBusiness
United States91 Posts
On March 08 2012 18:53 freakhill wrote: This is actually real skill. Starcraft is for a GIGANTIC part a game of execution. Let me be more specific... Learning how to hit 'c' before sending drones to extractors...or actually practicing using 2 - 3 control groups of units wouldn't be that hard. I, personally just dont try hard enough to practice it. Or, even using location hotkeys. I personally just focus on my own micro rather than "mastering" "better" "more pro" ways of doing things... I'm sure we can all relate. But, indeed if i wanted to truely improve my game, I would try to get used to using 3 - 4 control groups of units and better map movement via location hotkeys, possibly even incorporating my pinky into my play.... My point is I recognize a lot of things I learned by habbit, like many other players, and it would be quite an annoying hurdle to get over them. And since I switched to random, my former primary race 'Terran' has suffered a lot...I experiment every game, and I no longer hammer out builds over and over like I used to. This, combined with "hand mechanics" (outside of the game) makes it very difficult. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On March 08 2012 18:54 Vallz wrote: As a terran I really disagree with going full on macro. Honestly, terran in lower league suffers because we all know that terran needs more unit controls because they are alot more fragile. I think Terrans that are trying to get up should try to balance those 2 factors macro and micro to a good stable level. Although macro should always have an edge over micro. I got out of bronze only dropping a few games doing only macro marine marauder, never getting an upgrade besides conc shells and shield. I also improved more in a a few days than the last few months playing without knowing how to properly macro. Bronze league is still incredibly easy for anyone with basic macro. | ||
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Rockztar
Denmark210 Posts
Gotta say, I haven't lost a game out of the 20 or so I've played on it, but gold league players have definitely gotten better at executing 1 base attacks. Sometimes it's also hard to figure out what gold leaguers are doing due to wonky gas timings/BOs as well. :p When I've ended up playing a macro game against goldies they're almost still as bad as they used to be though. :p I fully understand that you can be "relatively hardcore", while still being bronze. The way I've progressed is to just put in effort to refining build orders, and making my builds "99% of them are macro builds" safe against cheese. I genuinely think that cheese is keeping a lot of players down in leagues as well. So the way I see it is that if you see yourself as a casual player that just enjoys the game you're not really gonna progress much imo., unless you start putting some effort into your refining your play, and reading the game better. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
On March 08 2012 19:36 Kaitlin wrote: Bronze is a mix of a whole lot of levels. You have bottom bronze which is full of portrait-farming win-traders. Then slightly above that is the group who can only beat those who voluntarily leave. Then you have the cheese, cheese, and more cheese please players. Then you have the true "bronze" level player, who actually belongs in what is supposed to be bronze league. Then you have the people from higher levels who come down and either troll the bronze league for giggles, or want many quick wins against easy competition for portrait farming, however not to the point of win trading, although most likely either cheese or all-in, sure to win stuff. Some have mentioned that yes, Bronze level has improved, yet so have the others, but without numbers in front of me, I think it's safe to say that of the people who have stopped playing, most of them have been from Bronze league. If the %'s remain constant through the seasons, then the skill in Bronze league HAS to improve for that reason alone, not even considering the additional impact of simple player improvement over time. No. Everyone in bronze sits on one base (sometimes 2 if they are a zerg), doesn't scout beyond an initial worker, and never moves out. The only time you ever get "cheesed" in bronze is a poorly executed 6 pool or a cannon rush. For the latter, they usually they have no idea how to actually cannon rush so they just walk in your base and try to build them right in front of you or something dumb like that. For the 6 pool, they generally just attack move (or whatever it is they do, since bronze players evidently don't know how to attack move) and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. If they were actually cheesing correctly they wouldn't be in bronze. Further, anyone who portrait farms and actually plays out the games must lose just as many games to stay in bronze. So, there is no reason to be "stuck in bronze." Period. The reason everyone says to just macro your way out is because IT'S TRUE. Bronze is just as bad as it ever was. People who try to justify their bronziness by arguing that "players have gotten better," are just trying to come up with excuses. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On March 08 2012 19:12 Shadowcloak wrote: Ok so am i the only one that thinks the leagues are easier by far? i leveld a troll from bronze to diamond last month since i have time to sc2 it up again. And i can swear it felt easier than it did in say 2010. Which seems to contradict everyone who thinks bronze silver gold are now harder because numerous people left. Not quite. The league rankings are arbitrary based on population size - the top percentile will be in Masters/GM; the mid percentiles will be Gold/Plat/Dia; the lowest percentile will be Silver/Bronze. Now let's say that the entire population has been playing for awhile (not true, but a lot of people are playing more and learning more) - overall skill levels either go up, or people that find themselves living in 75-100 bronze get fed up and quit. The population shrinks, but the remaining population as a whole are more "concentrated" with regard to skill - and the people leaving/starting the population don't all enter at bronze. As a whole, the entire league construct gains more skill, but a lot of that "skill" will probably wind up in the lower half of the rankings - there just is not a whole lot more improvement for the upper leagues, and improvement comes slower there. (Once they've got macro, micro down, and they begin forcing muscle memory and coordination, it's harder to improve if you have your basics down flat. And then game sense, situational decision making, and over all speed... faster faster faster.) It's not surprising that someone that can play Diamond or better will STILL roflstomp through bronze/silver/gold - but the overall skill levels in the bottom leagues is slowly creeping up. The overall skill spread may become smaller - somebody that was directly placed into silver in season 1, might be have been placed in bronze if he started now. It may be more noticeable in the lower leagues and possibly the upper leagues, but the middle leagues (where most players should wind up if they follow anything like a bell curve distribution - I know they probably don't) might be a bit "compressed". Or Blizzard could completely have ignored anything approaching a statistical system, and have meaningless arbitrary ranks which mean someday everyone could be diamond... but I'd like to think the MMR system isn't that crazy. I got out of Bronze using 3-rax. I stopped doing that and am now working on "standard" play. But I don't have the time (job, life, etc) to play 10-20 games a day so I imagine it'll be awhile before I move out of my current league, if I ever do. I don't mind - there's still a good 10 years in this game, if BW is any indication. (Of course, I'm older than White Ra now and I don't think my basic motor skills are really going to improve over time - but there's always hope, yes?) | ||
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Vallz
41 Posts
On March 08 2012 19:45 Rockztar wrote: I've been playing a bit on a different account that's gold league EU. Gotta say, I haven't lost a game out of the 20 or so I've played on it, but gold league players have definitely gotten better at executing 1 base attacks. Sometimes it's also hard to figure out what gold leaguers are doing due to wonky gas timings/BOs as well. :p When I've ended up playing a macro game against goldies they're almost still as bad as they used to be though. :p I fully understand that you can be "relatively hardcore", while still being bronze. The way I've progressed is to just put in effort to refining build orders, and making my builds "99% of them are macro builds" safe against cheese. I genuinely think that cheese is keeping a lot of players down in leagues as well. So the way I see it is that if you see yourself as a casual player that just enjoys the game you're not really gonna progress much imo., unless you start putting some effort into your refining your play, and reading the game better. I stopped SC2 for that particular reason. I'm pretty casual player and when I reached mid master it just required too much and I just got pisst off ^^ Everyone should be able to reach masters though only if you really like the game, all you have to do is dedicate this 1% more of your time and keep progressing! | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago. I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way". There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'. This argument is exagerated. Yes, the player base has improved a lot, compared to when the game came out, but that's not an excuse, it doesn't change the fact that you don't have to be all that great to improve. I'm terrible myself, I'm high plat. When I play gold players, I don't go "god, I'm lucky I was placed in plat, gold players are so good now", I go "wow, gold players don't die to half-ass one base allins anymore". If you have a decent gameplan for every matchup and focus on macro, there's no reasonable explanation why one would be stuck anywhere, it's so easy to improve and it's so easy to get wins using just that. The argument that the playerbase is getting better simply can't be used as an excuse for not improving. If I went back in time to the release, I could probably get out of bronze building only queens. Nowadays, that might be harder since the player base has improved... but I could still easily get out of bronze building only zerglings. | ||
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