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On April 02 2012 14:21 Zariel wrote:
Your pretty much a bronze leaguer if you have zero sense of the game. You might think you do, but you don't. I have friends that play 2-5 hours a day and are still rank 1 bronze league.
Essentially, they don't play to win. Instead they play to see their 200/200 void ray army kill the enemy or die trying.
The difference in 'macro' between a bronze player than the rest of the leagues is that bronze players tend to 'zone out' to fights and like to think for like 10 seconds on 'where should i place this gateway'
I heard that you are pretty much a bronze leaguer if you are in bronze league.
Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization. I was in bronze not too long ago, and I had far more than zero sense of the game. I was total shit at applying the so-called knowledge I had, but I knew BOs and all that. For the most part I was just stubborn, and got distracted by shit like vespene geysers and my marauders falling apart to DTs.
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On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote:
Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization.
It's all a matter of degree. My twelve year old brother is pretty advanced in math for his age and reads a lot about the sciences. I have a degree in physics. I could say that he has "zero understanding of physics" but the truth is that he does have a pretty good intuition for some simple topics, he just doesn't understand how professionals in the field actually do what they do. I can explain things to him, and he'll get the idea pretty well, but there's no way that he could work through homework problems that a freshman in college could handle.
If Starcraft 2 were physics, low bronze would be an elementary school understanding, high bronze through plat would be a high school level, and diamond and up would be college and up.
I guess that analogy is pretty useless, but it feels about right and I'm happy with it.
Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
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On March 29 2012 18:45 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 18:35 olmaster wrote:I got demoted out of silver teamgames due to loosing to many games with sloppy teammates.
This is a fallacy. Let's say you're playing 3v3 and are a good player. This means your team only has 2 chances to get bad players on it because you will always be taking up a spot. The enemy team, however, has 3 chances for bad players. If you were really a good player, you would, over time, win more than you would lose and rise to your appropriate MMR whereupon you would level out at a 50% W/L rate, assuming you improve at a rate equal to your opponents.
I know this. In 3vs 3 I'm still silver and winning.
But also the fact I'm playing random, I have some lesser games. Most of the last games before I got demoted I lost but was still in top 3 and my teammates at the bottom.
I also looked at all players in the division I ended up in, thay all got demoted at the same time, about the same timestamp. maybe this has to do with the achievementsservice and it updates all at once, but found it strange. Must be a lot of new silvers now I thought.
So how does that work?
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On March 29 2012 18:54 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 18:35 olmaster wrote:
(...)But all of this stuff keeps me in higher bronze/silver. I've had some training from a Diamond player for a while, where I had the better tactics but he was much faster using hotkeys, so after a while he said I was to slow and had to work on my hotkeys. I play Random so I had to manage this for all races. I have ordered a new keyboard and mouse, my teammate told me to do so cause this can help to improve your epm and hotkeying. So I hope this will help. (...)
A new mouse and keyboard don't make you a better player (unless you were using a notebook keyboard and a touchpad or trackball before). I know, pros use mechanical keyboards and stuff and for them it really makes a difference but for everyone below masters, it won't change anything at all. Just use what you are comfortable with. A good way to force yourself to use hotkeys is to just hide the controls in the bottom right, either by placing an item before it or putting one of those yellow papers on it. That way you prevent the habit of clicking those buttons instead of pressing the correct key. Of course it can cause problems if you need to research something and don't remember the hotkey... but that will make you remember the hotkey better for next time  Other than that, keep having fun
A new mouse and keyboard don't make you a better player...in this case you don't wanna know what stuff I'm using :-), about any keyboard mouse is an improvement. I've tried some other ones at my friends place and I notice I have less f*ckups due to the keys that work much smoother and faster. Also I use a performance mouse whcich was suppost to be a better gaming mouse, but after a test is was to slow and after a while it's to heavy. So I got me a normal wired mouse and it actually works better now. I can find my keys, it's just the speed, not used to typing fast.
thx for the heads up.
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On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4.
When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
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On April 02 2012 15:04 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote:
Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization. It's all a matter of degree. My twelve year old brother is pretty advanced in math for his age and reads a lot about the sciences. I have a degree in physics. I could say that he has "zero understanding of physics" but the truth is that he does have a pretty good intuition for some simple topics, he just doesn't understand how professionals in the field actually do what they do. I can explain things to him, and he'll get the idea pretty well, but there's no way that he could work through homework problems that a freshman in college could handle. If Starcraft 2 were physics, low bronze would be an elementary school understanding, high bronze through plat would be a high school level, and diamond and up would be college and up. I guess that analogy is pretty useless, but it feels about right and I'm happy with it. Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
Other than this it takes you way to long to get from Bottom bronze to High silver just because most of the players are in there and are about the same level.
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On April 02 2012 23:21 olmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections.
I recommend some cocaine.
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On April 02 2012 23:42 justalex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:21 olmaster wrote:On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver... Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections. I recommend some cocaine.
You could be right as he's living at his mother.
Cocaine? For who? me or my boy??
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People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically!
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38 Posts
I was gold protoss and changed into T (because there was so few) and started to lose, so I got demoted and then went all the way back to the bottom of bronze to try to learn T from zero. I have now played enough to be at the bronze-silver border. this is what I experienced (not to imply any generalizations):
Low-mid bronze, the concept that SC is about optimization is entirely lacking. A player does 2rax opening but then makes 5 depots in advance, and then at 6:00 starts to produce MM. Production is continuous, but stops when army moves out. There's no sense of optimal BO. Worker production is actually quite decent. Quite many players try to drop or make DTs or things like that, but it isn't working. Some random cheese, but badly done. 1-base play is the norm. I didn't encounter any mass air protoss, which was common back then, and in fact no cannon rush came along. APM is between 10-25.
I have about 10% of smurfs and people who insta-gg'd. These are people who have high APM, they do crazy stuff and still win.
high-bronze, low silver, a dramatic change occurs here. It seems, most players have now learned to do optimal cheese. So you got 6pool, zealot rush, 4gate, proxy rax, proxy bunkers, baneling bust, whatever, one after another. I was first losing because the change was so dramatic, it took time to adjust to the new reality. But these builds are "optimal" in a sense you can see that it has been planned out in advance. Some high silver players have played many games, can be like 2000 (and have always been in bronze-silver). These players play for win, not for just fooling around, and they have discovered at least one efficient way to achieve that. If this were my first time in bronze I would probably do 3rax in every game. I think it isn't necessary easy to get out of this phase because if you counter cheese with cheese, its coinflip, and if you try to defend and go for macro game, you really need to scout and cope with so many different cheese strats.
It is often said that you get into higher leagues by better macro. Looking my production graphs, I massively outproduce my opponents but still manage lose, mainly due to cheese and because I sometimes a-move my army into banelings or toss deathballs which isn't working for T, and because I haven't really learned to control T efficiently in engagements.
Actually, the 'macro better' theory predicts that the outcome of the game is predicted by supply differential or by spending differential. I will perhaps check this from my games but I have a feeling that it isn't so when I play T, amount of spending/supply/workers correlates only weakly with winning. But maybe I'm wrong.
If I play customs against diamond or plat players, what I see is that these players generally know what's the proper response to what I am doing, so they just do that and win fast. This is something I don't see in bronze-silver-gold. But if it goes for macro game, my macro is not super inferior.
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United States893 Posts
On April 03 2012 00:27 NexUmbra wrote:
People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically!
True, but this mindset is toxic to your progress in the long run. I tried to keep a mindset like this, and one day I realized that I had basically quit because when I won, I thought "Wow, that guy REAALLY sucked, I'm just glad I didn't suck as much.". When I lost I just thought "Wow, I suck enough to lose to a really sucky player". This seems like an obviously bad way to go about one's life. Eventually I changed my thought-processes to be based on improvement, so for a win I would think "Alright, I learned how to do something, which enabled me to defeat my opponent". For losses, "Oh, I haven't yet figured out how to deal with something, I should watch the replay to find out how to do that something." This made playing much more fun and is just as good for improvement. So to finally address your post, I think it would be better to say that even low-masters players have not improved as much as they would like to, therefore you should recognize this and you will learn more quickly.
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On April 03 2012 01:17 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 00:27 NexUmbra wrote:
People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically! True, but this mindset is toxic to your progress in the long run. I tried to keep a mindset like this, and one day I realized that I had basically quit because when I won, I thought "Wow, that guy REAALLY sucked, I'm just glad I didn't suck as much.". When I lost I just thought "Wow, I suck enough to lose to a really sucky player". This seems like an obviously bad way to go about one's life. Eventually I changed my thought-processes to be based on improvement, so for a win I would think "Alright, I learned how to do something, which enabled me to defeat my opponent". For losses, "Oh, I haven't yet figured out how to deal with something, I should watch the replay to find out how to do that something." This made playing much more fun and is just as good for improvement. So to finally address your post, I think it would be better to say that even low-masters players have not improved as much as they would like to, therefore you should recognize this and you will learn more quickly.
This. In any skill or art for you are trying to learn, positive attitude will result in faster improvement.
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On April 03 2012 02:24 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:17 Mordanis wrote:On April 03 2012 00:27 NexUmbra wrote:
People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically! True, but this mindset is toxic to your progress in the long run. I tried to keep a mindset like this, and one day I realized that I had basically quit because when I won, I thought "Wow, that guy REAALLY sucked, I'm just glad I didn't suck as much.". When I lost I just thought "Wow, I suck enough to lose to a really sucky player". This seems like an obviously bad way to go about one's life. Eventually I changed my thought-processes to be based on improvement, so for a win I would think "Alright, I learned how to do something, which enabled me to defeat my opponent". For losses, "Oh, I haven't yet figured out how to deal with something, I should watch the replay to find out how to do that something." This made playing much more fun and is just as good for improvement. So to finally address your post, I think it would be better to say that even low-masters players have not improved as much as they would like to, therefore you should recognize this and you will learn more quickly. This. In any skill or art for you are trying to learn, positive attitude will result in faster improvement.
Well I do not have the attitude that you are describing, after every game I try to learn in some way from it. I am not talking about thinking IM SO BAD OMG but more so opposing the fact that their are bronze players that are saying "Well bronze is actually pretty good!" in order to say that they are not that bad. However I believe that once you get your head out of your own arse and that realise that you are quite bad then you will see improvement.
I used to have this mindset that I was good and that bronze was not 'that bad' but I basically realised that everyone who is not a progamer is basically horrific at the game and that I was never going to improve. After doing this I got from Bronze > Silver and now am consistently facing Gold league players!
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I dont know what to tell you guys who are stuck.
I didn't play SC2 for over a year and a half (quit in september of 2010, played again March 2012) and I was able to very easily easily place into platinum.
there has to be something fundamentally wrong with your gameplay or the matchmaking system if I can still walk over people after that much skill decay and you are stuck in bronze after 2 years.
I see this in other games. People play a long time and just don't get very good. My suggestion is to find a friend in a higher league, play against them and ask them to look at some replays for you.
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On April 02 2012 23:55 olmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:42 justalex wrote:On April 02 2012 23:21 olmaster wrote:On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver... Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections. I recommend some cocaine. You could be right as he's living at his mother. Cocaine? For who? me or my boy??
Both
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Vatican City State582 Posts
it doesn't matter what league you are in, as long as you are having fun playing the game, enjoy
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On April 02 2012 23:55 olmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:42 justalex wrote:On April 02 2012 23:21 olmaster wrote:On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver... Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections. I recommend some cocaine. You could be right as he's living at his mother. Cocaine? For who? me or my boy??
Freud joke. He did enough to kill a small horse.
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On April 02 2012 15:04 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote:
Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization. Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
I think this is a big deal. I often rewatch my own games and wonder wtf I was doing with some of the decisions I make in-game. Its like I can't do all the mechanical stuff AND think about basic strategy at the same time. And its probably one of the hardest skills to learn/teach, if it can be taught at all. The best I can do is keep things as simple as possible IE one build per matchup, and just research as many responses as possible.
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This thread had a death grip on me, and I'm not sure how much more I can take. It's so ugly to see, but I just can't look away.
I have the strongest urge to get demoted to bronze and just check the place out for myself.
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On April 02 2012 15:04 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote:
Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization. It's all a matter of degree. My twelve year old brother is pretty advanced in math for his age and reads a lot about the sciences. I have a degree in physics. I could say that he has "zero understanding of physics" but the truth is that he does have a pretty good intuition for some simple topics, he just doesn't understand how professionals in the field actually do what they do. I can explain things to him, and he'll get the idea pretty well, but there's no way that he could work through homework problems that a freshman in college could handle. If Starcraft 2 were physics, low bronze would be an elementary school understanding, high bronze through plat would be a high school level, and diamond and up would be college and up. I guess that analogy is pretty useless, but it feels about right and I'm happy with it. Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
I know exactly what you mean.
So many players I've tried teaching say, "I get it." But, when I ask them to explain what I just said back to me, they've clearly missed the point. It shows in their play as well.
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EPT
