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On March 31 2012 03:32 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:26 Filter wrote:On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for? That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond. That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast. I've been doing 14g/14p for pretty much every game for a while now... once I get my 21 expo up then I decide whether to go ling/bling, roaches, muta/ling etc.
If you don't want to revert to 1-base play, you can try 2-base timings.
vT: Evo baneling bust off 2 gas off 28 drones
vZ: Roach +1 timing
vP: Roach/ling bust at 8:30
14g/14p is solid. Against Terran you should open 15h/15p as it's far superior and there's really not much the Terran can do. 11/11 can be held with that build if you pull all but 5 drones and nobody in your league will be able to pull off an 11/11 properly.
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On March 31 2012 03:38 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:26 Filter wrote:On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for? That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond. That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast. Oh don't be ridiculous. 7RR at 4:58 is decent and I'm sure he'll take some games with it, but any half-arsed Terran in silver(by which I mean me) could probably hold it. It certainly won't "kill every Terran" from bronze to plat. http://drop.sc/148235
It'll kill enough to effectively get him into Gold. If you went Hellion/Marauder every game against Z it'd probably give you an 80% win ratio up until Platinum unless they randomly throw up 10 spines. In which case you pull back and expand while the zerg just wasted too many resources for nothing.
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On March 31 2012 02:04 HuShang wrote:
Fair, I agree with "bronze players... have a wide range of other things to compensate" but there is absolutely no way that a bronze player can have the same game knowledge as a pro player or even a high masters player.
Yeah, but who's ever actually said that? There are people who claimed to have "good macro" or whatever, but that's not in relation to any objective standard, and certainly not how pros do it.
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On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote:
I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
As a mid-master in EU server I can confirm. With my smurf I started playing in bronze, and played across the leagues until I reached master also with my second account. People in silver already know how to macro. I can tell that macro between silver and platinum is almost at the same level. In diamond (top) you start to see decent players with very good macro, but below is almost at the same level. The difference is mostly in micro and gamesense and army compositions.
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On March 31 2012 03:48 GloPikkle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:38 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On March 31 2012 03:26 Filter wrote:On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for? That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond. That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast. Oh don't be ridiculous. 7RR at 4:58 is decent and I'm sure he'll take some games with it, but any half-arsed Terran in silver(by which I mean me) could probably hold it. It certainly won't "kill every Terran" from bronze to plat. http://drop.sc/148235 It'll kill enough to effectively get him into Gold. If you went Hellion/Marauder every game against Z it'd probably give you an 80% win ratio up until Platinum unless they randomly throw up 10 spines. In which case you pull back and expand while the zerg just wasted too many resources for nothing.
Ah yeah, a decent one base timing will secure quite a few wins. I just don't like absolute statements when they're so easily disproven 
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On March 31 2012 00:50 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 00:44 Umpteen wrote:
So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable.
When a bronze player (or a gold player like you or me) say that they "understand" anything or that an aspect of their game is "good," they're comparing it to where they personally used to be. They're not, in any practical sense, comparing it to better players.
I think you're being... overly charitable. Maybe - maybe - some use 'understand' and 'good' in that sense. But the guy to whom I was responding? No, that wasn't what he meant.
If you want to say you've learned, say you've learned. If you want to say your macro has improved, say that. I've learned, and my macro has improved. Do I 'understand strategy'? I would go so far as to say that I grasp the outline of what I would need to understand, and that alone was enough to earn me a promotion.
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On March 31 2012 05:21 Umpteen wrote:
I think you're being... overly charitable. Maybe - maybe - some use 'understand' and 'good' in that sense. But the guy to whom I was responding? No, that wasn't what he meant.
I didn't say that was what they thought they meant, I said that's what they were doing, whether they're aware of it or not. :D
Edit: I think that almost everyone who plays Starcraft engages in a healthy dose of lying to themselves about how well they're doing, at all levels. I don't have evidence for this, but it's my suspicion.
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On March 31 2012 00:55 jammedk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 00:44 Umpteen wrote:On March 31 2012 00:27 jammedk wrote:On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote:
I am not quite sure about this thread....
I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn. It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week? I know you weren't talking to me, but I can't accept that because I don't have any time to practice either and I'm not stuck in bronze.I'm almost 38. I have a wife and a five year old daughter. The theoretical maximum I can play is 1 hour each weekday at lunch, plus two hours one evening per week. I do not achieve that, because I often work through lunch. I'd say I play for 3-5 hours per week, with most weeks erring on the low side. After being stuck in silver for months, I realised that my decision-making and overall understanding of what to do under what circumstances was holding me back. This allowed me to jump up to gold league in a matter of a few days. So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable. 1: Good job! (no sarcasm intended)
Thanks Seriously, on a personal level I'm pleased with myself because my modus operandi prior to SC2 was to assume I would be naturally awesome at game X and then rage-quit with some half-assed rationalisation when I turned out not to be.
3: Can you at least accept that Bronze players actually CAN be happy and content with where they are placed leaguewise, and enjoy the game without the need to hear shit from everyone else? Not all, but some.
Oh, absolutely. Like I said a few posts ago, everyone is entitled to just goof around if that's what makes them happy. But that's not what this thread is about. For a start, this wasn't a personal blog post, it was posted in SC2 general. And it included this line:
Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
The OP is not talking about messing about and having fun in bronze. He's trying to sell the implication that you can be doing all those things in an attempt to improve, still be in bronze, and somehow it all adds up. Which it doesn't - if you're doing all those things and you're still in bronze, then you must be doing at least some of those things wrong.
To be clear: if you watch Day9 and GSL for the entertainment and the awesome, and play for the mothership rushes and the lulz, I got your back. I jerk off from time to time just like everyone else. But if you're trying to learn, don't you think it's a shame to fool yourself into believing you're succeeding when actual success might be within reach? Worse: imagine you're fooled by someone else's post on TL.
How about everybody just letting us measly bronze players have some fucking fun?!
Exactly how does your fun in any league depend upon me or anyone else agreeing with you in a discussion thread? Am I stopping you having fun by writing this? Or is it you reading it?
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From my extensive experience in the bronze league, all bronze players are absolutely rotten. However, bronze league is still totally awesome fun. You just have awesome fun while being awesome rotten at the same time.
Bronze players are not good. Players in general don't have to care about being good. Fun is subjective, and comes in many different forms.
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Peru1174 Posts
So at this point I lost the idea of this thread
He is looking to improve by playing others Bronze players or
He just wanna have fun in Bronze league.....
In either cases he'll be silver in a couples of weeks because of practice and this thread will lose meaning lol
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[QUOTE]On March 31 2012 05:46 Umpteen wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 31 2012 00:55 jammedk wrote:
[quote]Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.[/quote]
[quote]
The OP is not talking about messing about and having fun in bronze. He's trying to sell the implication that you can be doing all those things in an attempt to improve, still be in bronze, and somehow it all adds up. Which it doesn't - if you're doing all those things and you're still in bronze, then you must be doing at least some of those things wrong.
To be clear: if you watch Day9 and GSL for the entertainment and the awesome, and play for the mothership rushes and the lulz, I got your back. I jerk off from time to time just like everyone else. But if you're trying to learn, don't you think it's a shame to fool yourself into believing you're succeeding when actual success might be within reach? Worse: imagine you're fooled by someone else's post on TL.[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, obviously he's doing stuff wrong, cos he's in bronze
Same can be said for pretty much anyone not currently GSL champion.
I mean either you're implying that he's actually lying about trying to improve, or you're just acknowledging that he is training, but not training "the right way". But I doubt that's something you can fix by shouting slogans at him over the internet. You'd probably need someone to coach the crap out of him, and who would want to waste the effort on someone who's totally happy in bronze?
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I was in bronze for 1 week tops, if you watch Day 9 and nooby tuesday, or a tourney for inspiration, etc, I think itgets you ready to play and if you know basic macro and micro you can get pretty far (using hotkeys hopefully).
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On March 31 2012 06:23 therockmanxx wrote:
So at this point I lost the idea of this thread
He is looking to improve by playing others Bronze players or
He just wanna have fun in Bronze league.....
In either cases he'll be silver in a couples of weeks because of practice and this thread will lose meaning lol
If bronze players could get into silver by playing other bronzes for a few weeks, then there'd be no one in bronze
Edit : Except for the genuine newbies.
Edit : And the portrait farmers.
Edit : And the griefer smurfs.
Edit : And Gheed.
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I got out of bronze within 20 games.
More power to you if you're happy in bronze though.
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On March 30 2012 01:02 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:28 Adamgm wrote:On March 29 2012 19:57 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 19:07 Adamgm wrote:On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote:
Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience. My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average. Not sure if you read what he actually wrote? Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. What's the issue? Reps or it didn't happen
What part of this is unbelievable enough to need replays?
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On March 31 2012 00:55 jammedk wrote:
I mean either you're implying that he's actually lying about trying to improve, or you're just acknowledging that he is training, but not training "the right way". But I doubt that's something you can fix by shouting slogans at him over the internet. You'd probably need someone to coach the crap out of him, and who would want to waste the effort on someone who's totally happy in bronze?
lol this made me laugh
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how do you caounter mass muta with toss?
tried stalker and archon and fenix i always lose
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On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
what I said originally is that there was at time when I was trying more obsessively to get out of bronze and advance. That was from launch up until 4-5 months ago, I suppose.
Although I still do most of those same things now, I have also said a few times that I am still trying to improve just as I always have. However, I have accepted that I am almost certainly not leaving bronze and I'm ok with that.
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On March 31 2012 10:59 Apocalypse114 wrote:
how do you caounter mass muta with toss?
tried stalker and archon and fenix i always lose
This is totally unrelated but lots of early pressure along with blink stalkers does it for me in bronze league
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On March 31 2012 10:59 Apocalypse114 wrote:
how do you caounter mass muta with toss?
tried stalker and archon and fenix i always lose
No-one can help you with such limited info. We'd need replays. Likely the reason you die to mutas is your opening is executed badly and this introduces an artificial weakness vs. mutas, or you're doing a bad opening which is weak to mutas.
Welcome to TL, I suggest you read 10 commandments thread here.
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EPT
