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On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:11 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote:
He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against. I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what? You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%. How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
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On March 31 2012 01:16 jammedk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:On March 31 2012 01:11 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote:
He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against. I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what? You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%. How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
On March 31 2012 01:16 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%. Read my edit. Improving, particularly for a new player, takes a lot more than just playing the game. I started with this game at zero and just about all of my meaningful improvement was from seeing other people doing things that honestly never would have occurred to me until I knew they were possible. (Queueing commands! Making hotkey groups! Looking one place on the map while doing something somewhere else!) If you're doing it wrongly, you don't get better by doing it wrongly over and over again, two hours a day or ten hours a day.
He watches day9. If that's not "studying," I don't know what is.
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On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
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On March 31 2012 01:16 jammedk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:On March 31 2012 01:11 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote:
He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against. I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what? You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%. How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
Nobody cares that there are bad players. What is annoying people is bad players a., justifying their badness by saying that the leagues are harder now, b., arguing that they actually aren't bad, or c., expecting us to be happy that they are bad.
Personally, the lack of introspection and refusal to take responsibility for their own actions (I'm bronze because of cheesers, because it won't promote me, because of smurfs, because of I don't have enough free time, etc) is almost enraging.
If people are content with being bronze, fine. But that's on THEM, nobody else. If the thread was "I'm bronze, here's some fun games I played, anyone want to play?" nobody would have given a shit (it probably would have been closed). Instead it has become a circlejerk of shared delusions and white knighting.
I'm platinum because I never play SC2 and when I do I'm bad at it. No excuses. You won't see me arguing that I have a "high level understanding of the game" or "good macro," because I don't.
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On March 31 2012 01:19 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:16 jammedk wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:On March 31 2012 01:11 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote:
He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against. I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what? You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%. How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:16 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%. Read my edit. Improving, particularly for a new player, takes a lot more than just playing the game. I started with this game at zero and just about all of my meaningful improvement was from seeing other people doing things that honestly never would have occurred to me until I knew they were possible. (Queueing commands! Making hotkey groups! Looking one place on the map while doing something somewhere else!) If you're doing it wrongly, you don't get better by doing it wrongly over and over again, two hours a day or ten hours a day. He watches day9. If that's not "studying," I don't know what is.
So obviously he's bad at learning 
I think you're being a bit of an armchair psychologist here. His opening post is basically "I've tried to get out of bronze and failed, but I'm realised that I'm actually pretty happy here now so I don't care that much. Does anyone else feel this way?"
And I can totally sympathise with him. Why spend a great deal of mental effort trying to untangle whatever cognitive block is holding him back when he's perfectly happy where he is?
Its just that Teamliquid, with its rather more serious business view of SC2, is a bad place to look for support for a laid back fun-loving bronzie.
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On March 31 2012 00:27 jammedk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote:
I am not quite sure about this thread....
I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn. It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week?
Because it doesn't require "40+ games a week" to get out of bronze. I've gradually moved from bronze up to gold playing less than 10 games a week over the past two years. Getting out of bronze doesn't take great amounts of time or blazing fast hands (I average 30-50 Blizz APM IIRC). Improving efficiently like that simply takes a focused approach. For me, it was a focus on not getting supply blocked, and coming back to my hatcheries to produce more units after doing anything else. That (combined with some basic build orders and scouting/timing knowledge) got me into gold
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
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On March 31 2012 01:40 Gheed wrote:
What is annoying people is bad players a., justifying their badness by saying that the leagues are harder now
Much of the argument in this thread that the leagues are better now than they used to be has not come from bronze players. I've argued it, frequently, but that has nothing to do with my own play -- I'm just interested in the MMR system and how it works, including (but not limited to) trends over time. My personal feeling is that where I am right now, bouncing between gold and platinum, hasn't really changed that much in a long while, because climbing out of that zone requires improving certain skills that require focused practice and a lot of the people there can't be bothered.
I'm platinum because I never play SC2 and when I do I'm bad at it. No excuses. You won't see me arguing that I have a "high level understanding of the game" or "good macro," because I don't.
I'd say the same for myself, though I don't find it frustrating when bronze players say those things, just informative. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, though, being in bronze doesn't necessarily preclude a person from being good at one specific task -- it just means they are likely to have problems with a wide range of other things to compensate.
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On March 31 2012 01:50 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:40 Gheed wrote:
What is annoying people is bad players a., justifying their badness by saying that the leagues are harder now Much of the argument in this thread that the leagues are better now than they used to be has not come from bronze players. I've argued it, frequently, but that has nothing to do with my own play -- I'm just interested in the MMR system and how it works, including (but not limited to) trends over time. My personal feeling is that where I am right now, bouncing between gold and platinum, hasn't really changed that much in a long while, because climbing out of that zone requires improving certain skills that require focused practice and a lot of the people there can't be bothered. I'm platinum because I never play SC2 and when I do I'm bad at it. No excuses. You won't see me arguing that I have a "high level understanding of the game" or "good macro," because I don't.[/QUOTE]
I'd say the same for myself, though I don't find it frustrating when bronze players say those things, just informative. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, though, being in bronze doesn't necessarily preclude a person from being good at one specific task -- it just means they are likely to have problems with a wide range of other things to compensate.[/QUOTE]
Fair, I agree with "bronze players... have a wide range of other things to compensate" but there is absolutely no way that a bronze player can have the same game knowledge as a pro player or even a high masters player. You may think you know as much as them but in reality you don't even have close to the same game sense or knowledge. It's always easy to watch a pro player and say you could do that but you can't, not just because you're too slow etc... which is fine I don't mean to insult anyone but, it's really annoying when people claim to be 'knowledgeable' and just lack execution or speed because there's absolutely no way you could know certain things without having played in the same situation. Some things you can't learn by watching.
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On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. Show nested quote +If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
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Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment?
Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years.
Still not seeming like a huge time investment?
Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice.
STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
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On March 31 2012 02:13 Eclipse.fX wrote:Show nested quote +
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment? Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years. Still not seeming like a huge time investment? Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice. STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
20 minutes per game is around 30 in game minutes per game. It's more like 12 minutes per game. And out of my 5 friends who started Starcraft 2 knowing nothing, it took the slowest guy 3 weeks to get out of bronze. But let's say you do 10 games a week for 4 months (which is plenty enough time to get out of bronze), that's 32 hours.
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On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example:
1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races
2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races
3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding
4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies
5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
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On March 31 2012 02:13 Eclipse.fX wrote:Show nested quote +
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment? Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years. Still not seeming like a huge time investment? Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice. STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
Of course practice matters, I never said otherwise. I was responding to a post saying it required more than 40 games a week to get out of bronze. I also said I play less than 10 games a week, not that I play 10 games a week. As I said earlier in this thread, I have 105 ladder wins on my account (so around 200 games played). Using your 20 min per game number, that comes out to about 70 hours over 2 years, or less than an hour of playing per week.
Now to go back to your argument, 10 games at 20 mins each would be about three hours of playing. That's not a "huge time investment", it's a fairly reasonable amount of time to spend on a hobby, and is roughly equal to watching a single game of your <insert sport of choice here>.
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On March 31 2012 02:13 Eclipse.fX wrote:Show nested quote +
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment? Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years. Still not seeming like a huge time investment? Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice. STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
More likely what is making your brain hurt is your faulty logic.
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On March 31 2012 02:44 Dranak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:13 Eclipse.fX wrote:
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment? Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years. Still not seeming like a huge time investment? Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice. STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT. Of course practice matters, I never said otherwise. I was responding to a post saying it required more than 40 games a week to get out of bronze. I also said I play less than 10 games a week, not that I play 10 games a week. As I said earlier in this thread, I have 105 ladder wins on my account (so around 200 games played). Using your 20 min per game number, that comes out to about 70 hours over 2 years, or less than an hour of playing per week. Now to go back to your argument, 10 games at 20 mins each would be about three hours of playing. That's not a "huge time investment", it's a fairly reasonable amount of time to spend on a hobby, and is roughly equal to watching a single game of your <insert sport of choice here>.
Hmm, its almost as if different people have different starting levels of SC2 ability, and progress at different rates.
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On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
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On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
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On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That's about what you're shooting for. I think they can pop at 4:50 but I haven't done the build in ages. Try this:
vP: 7RR
vT: Baneling bust
vZ 14g/14p ling/baneling
This should get you to the top of Silver and into Gold. The keys to focus on is not just getting your all-in opening right but also on sustaining it. ie to continue streaming units without floating resources, getting supply blocked, making dumb mistakes ie bad rallies, sitting around.
It's going to seem kind of mind-numbing but you'll win a lot of games and your mechanics will improve with repetition. If you're screwing up the build every other game, then imagine how much harder it will be to perfect your mechanics off of three bases. It's better to minimize the variables, tighten them up, then progress to 2-base all-ins/timings.
All-ins are a part of the game. Anytime I see a Toss 1 gate FE or a Terran 1 rax FE or CC first, I all-in them because it's just too greedy. To be a solid all-around player, you need to know when and how to punish overly greedy builds.
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On March 31 2012 03:26 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for? That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond. That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
I've been doing 14g/14p for pretty much every game for a while now... once I get my 21 expo up then I decide whether to go ling/bling, roaches, muta/ling etc.
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On March 31 2012 03:26 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 02:25 GloPikkle wrote:On March 31 2012 02:09 DarK[A] wrote:On March 31 2012 01:24 Lysenko wrote:On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test. The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive. If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation. The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out. The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins. You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out. PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals. For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations 99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready. See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them. I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for? That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond. That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
Oh don't be ridiculous. 7RR at 4:58 is decent and I'm sure he'll take some games with it, but any half-arsed Terran in silver(by which I mean me) could probably hold it. It certainly won't "kill every Terran" from bronze to plat.
http://drop.sc/148235
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EPT
