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On March 29 2012 20:28 Adamgm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 19:57 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 19:07 Adamgm wrote:On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote:
Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience. My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average. Not sure if you read what he actually wrote? Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. What's the issue?
Reps or it didn't happen
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On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver.
But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
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On March 30 2012 01:51 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
You would think that you couldn't jump from bronze to gold but I keep seeing people claiming gold placement after their initial matches.
I agree that a few games doesn't really tell you much, maybe you were lucky (or unlucky) maybe they dropped the match due to disconnect or other problem.
For those who feel they are "stuck in bronze" I wonder if their last 5 matches would have placed them differently though. I guess if they are only playing other bronzes it says something but I think the bar has risen.
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On March 30 2012 01:58 Ellachandra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 01:51 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze. You would think that you couldn't jump from bronze to gold but I keep seeing people claiming gold placement after their initial matches. I agree that a few games doesn't really tell you much, maybe you were lucky (or unlucky) maybe they dropped the match due to disconnect or other problem. For those who feel they are "stuck in bronze" I wonder if their last 5 matches would have placed them differently though. I guess if they are only playing other bronzes it says something but I think the bar has risen.
It doesn't really matter. Even if the "high bronze" got a fresh start and did well enough to get a gold/silver placement, they'd likely deteriorate back to bronze the longer they played. Even someone stuck in bronze at a silver MMR but below the confidence threshold would get moved up during the next season.
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On March 30 2012 02:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
It doesn't really matter. Even if the "high bronze" got a fresh start and did well enough to get a gold/silver placement, they'd likely deteriorate back to bronze the longer they played. Even someone stuck in bronze at a silver MMR but below the confidence threshold would get moved up during the next season.
This is true. In season 4, I placed into Gold. Out of curiosity, I used a guest pass to start a second account, which placed into Diamond. I played a bunch on the second account and wound up demoted back to Platinum, and got promoted to Platinum on the first account.
This season, the original account is back in Gold. Haven't tried playing on the second account, but I suspect if I played a bunch of games there, I'd wind up in about the same place.
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On March 30 2012 01:02 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:28 Adamgm wrote:On March 29 2012 19:57 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 19:07 Adamgm wrote:On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote:
Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience. My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average. Not sure if you read what he actually wrote? Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. What's the issue? Reps or it didn't happen
With all due respect to the OP, I suspect that this question hinges on differing definitions of "early."
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On March 30 2012 03:30 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 02:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
It doesn't really matter. Even if the "high bronze" got a fresh start and did well enough to get a gold/silver placement, they'd likely deteriorate back to bronze the longer they played. Even someone stuck in bronze at a silver MMR but below the confidence threshold would get moved up during the next season.
This is true. In season 4, I placed into Gold. Out of curiosity, I used a guest pass to start a second account, which placed into Diamond. I played a bunch on the second account and wound up demoted back to Platinum, and got promoted to Platinum on the first account. This season, the original account is back in Gold. Haven't tried playing on the second account, but I suspect if I played a bunch of games there, I'd wind up in about the same place.
Nvm wasnt fixed then.
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On March 30 2012 01:51 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:40 Ellachandra wrote:On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote:
just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts? Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
That happened to me. I won my first placement match handily, then my next opponent left at the start. I proceeded to then lose 3 ZvPs in a row, and I was placed into Gold.
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I don't play much, like maybe average 10 games a week so I've been silver for awhile now (will be 2 seasons next season, started playing during the season 4 lock) and I'm fairly confident that if I started a new account I'd get placed into gold and stay there because as a top 8 silver I beat so many top 25 gold who are absolutely terrible. As I've said in an earlier post about ranks not mattering, I'm facing top 8 silver and top 25 gold or higher exclusively and its always a closer game against the top 8 silvers whereas the top 25 golds I normally steam roll.
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On March 30 2012 04:06 facemelterr wrote:
Nvm wasnt fixed then.
Fixed what? The system's working as designed, since my two accounts converged to about the same ranking.
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On March 30 2012 04:52 Lysenko wrote:Fixed what? The system's working as designed, since my two accounts converged to about the same ranking.
wasnt sure when they stopped allowing guess passes to play ladder.
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On March 30 2012 06:11 facemelterr wrote:
wasnt sure when they stopped allowing guess passes to play ladder.
Oh. There are "guest passes" which allow a certain limited number of hours of unrestricted play (I think seven hours.) Two of these were included in the WoW Cataclysm CE, and that's what I used. There's also a "starter edition" which is a free-to-play version of SC2 that has no time limit but a very restricted set of maps, and which can't be used for ladder play.
Edit: To try to steer this back to the thread topic, if a bronze player (or anyone) wants to see if a fresh start would help them with laddering psychologically, locating one of those older guest passes is the way to try it. It's an interesting experience being dropped into a different segment of the ladder, though it generally won't take long to wind up where you started.
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I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
Dunno.
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I'm just the same as you, OP.
I'm also in bronze league, watch streams/day9, review my own games.
But I do enjoy bronze league and I played through the campaign and I simply love the game.
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On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote:
I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
Its quite possible yeah. Most people probably aren't that bothered to do stuff like benchmarking their worker/supply counts at various times vs top players
a) because its too much work for a casual player
b) cos its very depressing
so they never notice how big an effect those missed workers, supply blocks and late expands amount to over time.
Then there's micro. Its not always obvious from watching a vod or stream that any good player doing micro is also keeping up with their macro at home because the camera doesn't always swap back, so they assume the pros are 100% focused on the micro and do the same themselves.
I had a ZvT on Taldarim Altar where the guy was sieging my natural from behind the minerals on the lowground and elevatoring marines up, very fancy. Nearly beat me right there by killing the hatch, and he says as much before he eventually ggs after I make a comeback. Then I go look at the replay and he's floating several thousand minerals. He literally had no idea how easily he could have won with a little more macro.
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The thing that gave me the most insight into "how the game is played" was from watching pro's pov. They shave the game into incredibly tiny time slices and spread them around the map. Watching it made me dizzy at first since I didn't know where they were going next but after a while I saw that they hold a mental picture of each area they are time slicing and then just refresh over and over again. It was a real eye opener.
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Let me preface this by stating that I absolutely love Starcraft...
For the last 5-6 years I have been watching tons of OSL, MSL, GSL, MLG and other Starcraft related abbreviations.
I have a pretty fair understanding of the game in relation to build orders, counters, current pro level metagame etc.
I am in Bronze League :-)
So enough prefacing - here goes:
I have a demanding office job. I have a wife (who also works) and two kids. I have a house with a garden.
On a regular week day; Once I have dragged my ass home, had dinner with the wife/kids, picked up all the shit the kids drop around the house, read a bedtime story to them, maybe pay a couple of bills, feel up the wife for 10 minutes (if lucky), watch a couple of VODS from GSL - then I MIGHT feel like playing some Starcraft afterwards for 60-90 minutes.
It is my absolute favorite pass-time... If I have time :-)
My point is this:
1: I know which facets of my game, I need to improve on to advance to higher leagues - but I just don't put the time into practicing enough. Basically it comes down to lacking APM, mechanics, speed, precision etc. for me.
2: I greatly appreciate Blizzard's multiple leagues and matching system. Whenever I played Broodwar online, I would get absolutely slaughtered by higher caliber nerds within 10 minutes max. Almost every time.
3: I AM HAVING SO MUCH FUN playing Starcraft II. If I play 10 games, I will still get rushed or completely outplayed 2-3 times. I will also be matched against complete noobs fitting the Gheed description 2-3 times. And the rest of the matches are tons of fun even matches in the 20-30 minute range.
4: I have no personal needs or insecurities requiring me to be in Platinum league to be happy with myself or with the game of StarCraft. I do not need or want 20 replies to this post, on how I could improve. When I walk into the street on any given sunday, noone knows which league I am placed in, and the majority of them don't give a shit. I do not play to compete - I play to enjoy myself with a brilliant hobby. And that I do - probably twice a week for a bit more than an hour. AND I LOVE IT.
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I am not quite sure about this thread....
I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
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On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote:
I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
Dunno.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. If you stop looking at it as "people in bronze can't analyze their own games" and instead start looking at it as "if you don't analyze your own games, you'll end up in bronze" then it makes a lot more sense.
I feel like people in bronze are mostly the people who simply don't *want* to get better at the game. They enjoy doing whatever they want and still being able to win half of their games, instead of putting in effort to get better. I have several friends who log on for an hour or two a week and basically just build whatever they feel like, and if I try to tell them what they can do better, they just say "it's not like it matters, it's just a game".
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This thread is kinda silly
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EPT
