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Put down the pitchforks, or lower them, at least. - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Vagabond
Profile Joined April 2011
Scotland149 Posts
February 14 2012 11:06 GMT
#241
This PPV could be make or break for MLG and i would hate to see other leagues watching this, then make the desicion to do it as well. The big issue is as a someone not in the US timezone this is not worth the money to pay and watch specialy on a sunday when i would be staying up to 3-4am with work in the morning.

Most pay per view events in the UK are yearly things like e.g. Boxing costing £14.99, but This Arena looks like its going to be 4-6 different events ?. Not realy looked but at $20 each thats $80-$120 per person a year, on top of thier gold subscription you are going to be pricing out the key demographic the 18-30 market specialy if thier on a students budgets.

I was never the best with networking and dynamtic ips, but say you pay for it and your router autoupdates its firmware knocking your connection off and changing the IP address what happens then ? Will you lose out or will you still beable to watch it ?
Drone untill i die.
bwally
Profile Joined December 2010
United States670 Posts
February 14 2012 11:10 GMT
#242
MLG needs to grandfather in all Gold membership since a certain date to include this PPV at least.
Psyqo
Profile Joined November 2007
United States401 Posts
February 14 2012 11:11 GMT
#243
Another disgruntled Gold member voting for Option C.
rotegirte
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany2859 Posts
February 14 2012 11:13 GMT
#244
On February 14 2012 20:06 Vagabond wrote:
I was never the best with networking and dynamtic ips, but say you pay for it and your router autoupdates its firmware knocking your connection off and changing the IP address what happens then ? Will you lose out or will you still beable to watch it ?


Depending on their distribution platform, it will most likely be tied to your MLG or twitch account or both. So no worries
gnatinator
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada169 Posts
February 14 2012 11:15 GMT
#245
On February 14 2012 19:52 eloist wrote:
I find this original post quite manipulative in how it attempts to astroturf support for $10 as an acceptable price.

I completely agree.

Another issue to consider with PPV-only is the negative effects a viewership drop when it comes to finding sponsorship revenues for the next event.
LANPartyList.com supports Team Liquid -- Find LAN Parties world wide!
pepsimaxibon
Profile Joined March 2011
61 Posts
February 14 2012 11:22 GMT
#246
On February 14 2012 19:52 eloist wrote:
I find this original post quite manipulative in how it attempts to astroturf support for $10 as an acceptable price.

i will be extremely suspicious if there is a sudden $10 price drop at the last minute.
Logyx
Profile Joined June 2010
United States14 Posts
February 14 2012 11:25 GMT
#247
This is just one of the many reasons why I'm a fan of team EG.
For ever winner there are dozens of losers. Odds are you're one of them.
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
February 14 2012 11:30 GMT
#248
whats the benefit of having mlg gold if you don't get free access to what otherwise would've been payed for content.
iglocska
Profile Joined May 2011
Norway589 Posts
February 14 2012 11:31 GMT
#249
Totally agreed with EG's stance on this. I don't get the $20 ticket price for MLG, I think that $10 is pretty much the acceptable limit for a weekend tourney for most. I have been subscribing to most weekend tournament last year (all MLGs, IPL3, Homestory, etc) and to most seasons of the GSL.

I however will be skipping MLG until they lower it to $10. I really hope that they do end up doing so, as it was definitely one of the tourneys that I never even considered not paying for...
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
February 14 2012 11:31 GMT
#250
On February 14 2012 19:52 pepsimaxibon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 14 2012 19:10 Vanimar wrote:
On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
We’re at (and when I say “we,” I mean, teams, tournaments, content providers, everyone) an incredibly crucial moment in the lifespan of this industry. We’re at a point at which we, as an industry, need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors), and increase the percentage of our revenue that’s generated within the eSports ecosystem (direct-to-consumer revenue like subscriptions and merchandise).

The reason for this is that it’s actually still way too hard for teams and tournaments (including those you guys view as the most prestigious and the richest in all of eSports) to make things work financially. Trying to remain viable as a business based on sponsorships and non-industry revenue alone is an unbelievably dangerous path to walk, and it’s just not sustainable in the long term. And I say this as the mind behind what is commonly viewed as the richest pro team in the industry right now.

eSports companies, whether you’re talking about EG, or MLG, need to increase their direct-to-consumer revenue in order to survive long-term. For EG, that means selling more merchandise in our store, and offering a monthly EG subscription package for our fans (which you’ll see later this year, with the release of our new website). For MLG, that means - very similarly - selling more merchandise in their store, and, you guessed it, offering more subscription-based stuff (such as the Winter Arena weekend pass).


There's something I don't quite get (actually at this point don't agree upon, but maybe just lack the insight), so I will just ask and hope for an answer.

Q: Why does the Industry need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors)?

The way I see it, any sport utterly depends on those. Even if you take a soccer club with 80000 seats in their stadium and 20$ (dollar just chosen as example currency for sake of the argument and calculation purposes) per ticket, that's 1,6 Million $ per home game (which is 50% of games, reducing the income to 800k per game). This is an optimistic approach, for in this scenario every game is sold out and every seat is worth 20$. For a stadium with 80k seats however you have to be a top notch team, so player expenses far exceed those 800k per game. This is just the players, adding travel, Hotels, coaches, cooks and whatnot, soccer could never survive without MASSIVE sponsoring.

As I perceive the situation (again, correct me in case I am terribly wrong) there are two ways to handle the situation:
A) Take money for events, This will limit your viewers in any scenario, because even if everybody watching E-Sports right now would agree to pay the 10$ you deem appropriate, new people would not. Yes the events would probably grow, while price pools would increase and income for teams would increase. As this happened I imagine salaries for players would also skyrocket. Meaning expenses would rise as well while travel costs would not be a problem anymore, for those, of yourse, would stay the same. Making it possible for Players to attend more events around the world.
The danger I see in this is simply, that over time, viewers will stop watching (peoples interests change) while not many new people come to watch.
And if you argue that "well player streams and some events are still free", then events charging money would benefit from smaller events which build the community paying events can live of. This might be a realistic, but in no way fair, scenario.

B) Make everything free of charge and live off of sponsoring. I have no idea how hard it is to get sponsoring these days, but I imagine it's not easy. And this is actually a good thing, for it might facilitate competition among events. Maybe do some fun 4v4 pro games, play against viewers etc to keep people entertained. Think of new ways to sell the product, rather then just charge money for the same.
This scenario actually has the heavy possibility of increasing the number of total E-Sport viewers, as everybody likes fun stuff, it's fun right? This would make the scene as a total grow, increasing the number of regular viewers and thus making it interesting for advertisement.
I liked for example what you did with the "gracken" theme (although due to his latest showmatch I'hm rather inclined to it). I tink generating new ideas and fun stuff, interactive and not, will raise viewers and therefore increase sponsoring.

Yes, increasing the direct-to-consumer revenue is great, and having your players live in a team house should make specials kind of easy. I kind of miss events of that kind, where teams just set up a stream and do stuff (for instance "win a mouse from our sponsor for showing us some amazing strat/ beat our team in 4v4.. etc etc).


While I do want E-Sports to grow and am willing to buy my gaming gear exklusively from the sponsors of my favourite team /LAN I enjoyed and such, I am not willing to pay for a stream, for I feel it limits the amount of people watching, reduces the amount of new /entertaining ideas events bring to get more viewers, and ultimatively decreases the amount of people watching E-Sports, thus hurting it. If there is one thing I have gathered from most internet phenomena like Athene and such, it's that what it all comes down to is the amount of people watching. I feel any PPV model is a fast way to get more money into one's own pocket while decreasing the money going into the sport. This, of course, is a business model many businesses use, yes it ultimatively hurts everybody, doesn't it?

Vanimar (concerned Starcraft fan)



i'm tired of "community leaders" elevating themselves to make these divine statements above the noise. if the current esports model is unsustainable, then it's because it has been made so by a rediculous arms race based on naive venture capital - $200k salaries for players who can't even stay in code a or play a showmatch without rage 6-pooling half the games included.

MLG has been losing money for a decade, it's almost become renound for how to run a business for a decade without making a single cent of profit. SC2 was their great white hope, specifically an american GSL. the problem was the NA scene never developed like they hoped, and attempting a regular circuit which involves flying almost your entire roster from all corners of the world is totally unsustainable at this point in SC2.

so MLG can't make money. they certainly can't make enough money to fund a business model which involves high rise NYC offices and a centre of operations in the most expensive location in america.

MLG is like the guy who buys a $2k suit to look the part in despite barely having enough money for stationary. comparitively, GSL runs a tight ship - modest, professional and effective. i feel like every penny that i give to them is invested exactly where it's needed. compare this to the opulent veneer that MLG are trying to present, that $20 will probably pay about 1/100th of the monthly rent of JP's office alone.

the use of "pitchforks" in this case represents the term's transition to a tool for those who wish belittle the community's ire. i'm usually a contrarian but i feel the community is dead on this time, and nobody in any place of tutting authority is providing any data to convince me otherwise - so quit with the all knowing "oh well, if you want esports to die..." horseshit.

people have to ask themselves what they want esports to be, an insular inustry based on gouging a small base to facilitate opulent budgets and big living of those providing it, or a modest reflection of the community - built on careful budgets which don't send them wildly into a deficit.

one has the potential to grow budgets, the other has the potential to grow the community.

which esports do you want?

Interesting post.

Also I wonder about some other costs Sundance/MLG has to make.
1) Why does MLG have to pay for all the travel costs, including hotels? Why not the teams? Or the players? How much money are players actually making? People like ThorZain, Mana, Morrow and Dimaga. We know IdrA and HuK are making an absurd amount of money. How about MC, Nada and Puma? Stephano?
2) Can MLG cut in their expenses? 20$ sounds so desperate. They already killed all their Esport shows.
3) How did MLG lose money previous year? 5000$ for first place. 240000 people watching the stream. Adds after every game. Did they gave away too many free silver passes with stupid advertising like hot pockets? Maybe they should have let those 240000 people pay a small amount last year.

I would really to love some real figures, asking for 20$ to support e sports is just silly.
I had a good night of sleep.
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
February 14 2012 11:32 GMT
#251
Your use of the term pitchfork makes me want to use one on you. So condescending.

Other than that I appreciate the write up.
Soleron
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1324 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 11:38:05
February 14 2012 11:36 GMT
#252
I will be taking option B, and I'm not just saying I would pay $10, I actually would.

It's not an emotional argument, I actually don't value the content as high as $20.
BanditX
Profile Joined February 2012
United States78 Posts
February 14 2012 11:37 GMT
#253
I will be watching Assembly happily. The last thing esports needs is EVERY event charging 20$USD for ANYONE to watch ANY event.

Last year, Starcraft alone caused MLG to become bigger than it had been since its creation. If MLG is floundering financially, it isn't because of Starcraft. We watch the shows, we see the adds, we support our teams, players, and brands.

However, this 20$USD does not support Starcraft. This is Sundance/MLG milking money from the community that THEY need. And if they can't produce content at a price that our community is happy with, then I'm sure NASL/IEM/Dreamhack will.

MLG needs Starcraft.

Starcraft doesn't really need MLG.
Baituri
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands1501 Posts
February 14 2012 11:39 GMT
#254
As a student who does not have a lot of disposable income. I won't be buying this pass for 20 dollar.

I wil list the following reasons below:

1. 20 Dollars is too much. I don't think PPV model works for Starcraft events like it does for the UFC. You pay for a PPV for the UFC because you can see those guys 1-3 times a year. My favourite players stream themselves or have a tournament every other week to watch them.

2. I am a Gold Member and I think I deserve a discount. It doesn't matter how much it is, just the felling that we get appreciated as Gold Members is enough.

3. Assembly is on the same time, announced their stuff earlier than MLG and will support that instead.

4. Events like the Homestory Cup charge 5 Euro's for 4 days of content (I would gladly pay 10 Euro's for that). You charge me 20 Dollars (15 Euro's) for only 2 days of content...

5. I don't like you qualification process... It is a lot better than it used to be, but only invite people to qualify into your tournament is just bad... Everyone should have a chance.

6. Just to let you know again... The majority of your "Target Market" is in school and does not have the money to pay for this. When I can get 4 IEM events or 3 months of GSL for the same price? I know what I will be paying for...
Mazaire
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia217 Posts
February 14 2012 11:45 GMT
#255
Not taking on the freemium approach is going to hurt them very hard this time around, especially since there is another awesome tournament on at the same time, for free.
"No matter what event you go to there are so many koreans, like a swarm. Even if you beat three or four, there are like 10 others waiting." - Socke
svefnleysi
Profile Joined March 2011
Iceland623 Posts
February 14 2012 11:45 GMT
#256
I'm not going to spend $20 on an event like this.

I might be willing to spend $10 depending on the scheduling/players/casters and if there wasn't a free event running on the same weekend.
bmml
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom962 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 11:50:24
February 14 2012 11:47 GMT
#257
This blog post seems to completely ignore or whitewash over the horrible business decisions which have forced the 20$ price hike,
#1 Offline event in the one of the most expensive cities on the planet,
#2 Paying for the entirity of flight and accomodations costs in one of the most expensive cities on the planet,
#3 Not allowing offline spectators for this apparently prestigious tournament (missing out on basically "free" money there),
#4 Coddling Korean teams who due to the failure of the Korean SC2 scene can't fly their players out to any tournaments without major help.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can defend MLG's decisions in regard to this PPV model, they've completely jumped the shark in regards to the running and planning of this event and therefore shouldn't get anyones money. I mean they couldve ran this same event for such a smaller sum if they found a different venue and changed "PAY FOR EVERYTHING" to "travel stipend or X".

Whatever though, bubble gon pop.

I bet what happens in a weeks time is Sundance lowers the price to 10 dollars or puts up a GSL quality free stream and everyone hails him as the saviour of ESPORTS, fact is tournaments has been running for fucking years without pulling this shit and just because they now want to appeal to the mainstream by having fucking Dr Pepper cannons and hot pocket fireworks doesn't make me want to watch their product over any other cup.
JayJay_90
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany1632 Posts
February 14 2012 11:48 GMT
#258
I think what Sam Mathews (owner of fnatic) posted on twitter would be a pretty good idea:
@sammathews Sam Mathews:
Hey @MLG @MLGSundance @MrMLGAdam Make a $0.99 low quality stream, and $10 med quality, and 20$ high quality, and everyone will relax.
Dopec
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland4 Posts
February 14 2012 11:49 GMT
#259
I can easily understand why MLG is doing this and the intentions behind it, but I'm afraid that such move at this time of the year will alienate many people who like to watch SC 2 tournaments when it suits then, but are not willing to pay for it. In the end one would think that the SC 2 e-sports scene is also supported by people who watch when it suits them, but are not ready to pay for it unless it comes cheap.
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 11:54:43
February 14 2012 11:51 GMT
#260
Canceld my Gold membership before reading that post.
Great post and I guess ill still cancel it
They allready screwed with us. Its not like SC2 has a community which has no option to be ask considering new pricing models ...
edit: but i just spend the money i freed my cancling into upgrade of GSL ticket xD esports ftw.
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
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