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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
ALWAYS GREAT CHANGES LOVE THIS!!!
Don't really quite understand the mule change honestly. I know that it's really strong that you can save a lot of MULEs then throw them at a high yield, but it's still "proportional" to the other races.
Phoenix change is interesting, but I'm not sure how I feel about the phoenixes automatically attacking AND having 6 range. Either way, that's fucking awesome, you can pick off Marines easier and stuff. Might be too easy to stop mutas tho...?
THE SNIPE CHANGE. I will be very sad now, but it is needed. Perhaps it will only be for now until HotS when zergs can make that defensive smoke thingy from the viper (unless Snipe goes through that?). Like they said it was WAY TOO EASY to just turtle up, split the map, and mass ghosts. Now you will have to do it more carefully. It's still gonna work but gonna be much harder to set up that split position while making sure you have enough energy/defense to keep the split up until you get a shit ton of ghosts.
I'm always surprised at how good blizzard is at with numbers. 6 to 10 vs BLs is very reasonable. 11 to 19 for ultras is reasonable too! It increased more for Ultras than it did for BLs, which is good because... well I think it just makes sense. They will still do full damage to HTs and shit, yay!
Now those ghost openings TvT will be weaker though  they were pretty uncommon already. Also you can't snipe SCVs anymore, or other workers. It's also weaker vs Zealots, though I don't think that's much of a problem.
Also, yay they did the APM/CPM thing! woot!
OMG I JUST NOTICED LOL. GHOSTS CAN NOW SNIPE INFESTORS IN TWO SHOTS INSTEAD OF THREE OMG LOL. They didn't say this??? was this not intended, or did he just leave this out? There has to be a reason why it's +25 psionic instead of +20 right? xD
I wonder why though... while I remember most people just EMPing infestors, snipe was pretty good against infestors already. Maybe they want you to still do well vs the BL/infestor composition but make it so that ghosts counter infestors harder (i think i do agree they don't counter them enough, but tanks are already really good o.o) instead of being so good against BLs.
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i think blizzard can go even further with the phoenix upgrade. they should make the upgrade in the cyber core so it'll be easier to access. No one wants to get a fleet beacon because it might be too late by then. However, I can see that phoenix > mutas at low counts so this might work.
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On February 11 2012 05:12 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:00 statikg wrote:
Are you fing kidding me? So because the majoirty of the ladder is zerg since all they have to do is camp until tier 3 and then tech switch for the win, lets make it just completely impossible to beat. Thanks blizzard way to be completely out of touch with reality. You do realize that they had to nerf snipe... the entire community way screaming imba. They may have over done it with how much dmg they took off. BUT something had to be done, you had a 1 unit counter to every t3 unit zerg could make... Infestors? EMP! Ultras? Snipe! BL? Snipe! so it was kind of silly.
The whole community was not screaming imba.
Zerg players were, and they represent like more than half of the community on most site. ( TL included )
Snipe was very good, but getting to the point you can just snipe everything because you have X amount of ghost is NOT easy.
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Mule change - Very good, should have been done months ago
Snipe change - Needed change, it was too good in TvZ and it stays the same in TvP
Phoenix change - Oh boy, this one is hard. I think it will not change to much, it will be definitely very expensive upgrade + it requires fleet becon (late game), and zerg can have 7-8 mutas in 10th minute in protoss mineral line. By this time mutas should already destroy a lot of eco and there would be already 20+ mutas in the ball. I still feel that stargate is bad reactive counter to mutas, Its ok when you already have stargate when mutas show, otherwise you cant keep up with the production of pheonix vs mutas. But this is my guessing, Im curious how SoTG will comment on this change.
Nice map and balance changes in upcoming patch.
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On February 11 2012 05:13 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:48 blinkingangels wrote:On February 11 2012 04:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 11 2012 04:39 The KY wrote:On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C4PPe.png) I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from. Someone should counter that by just making a horizontal line at 100% for TvZ and TvP with no data whatsoever. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042 if these are the providence winrates then what was that other graph? these look pretty balanced near late game, only terran has a significant advantage early game.
Did you just look at the general graph or what? The matchup specific graphs show that terran is way below 50% after 20 minutes.
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On February 11 2012 05:19 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:18 Bashion wrote:On February 11 2012 05:15 zhurai wrote:On February 11 2012 05:13 shizna wrote:
2 snipes to kill a baneling? i want to scream.
afaik NOTHING IN THE GAME (even during beta phase) was just straight up nerfed by almost 50%... it's so harsh.
btw ultralisks are now a gosu unit in tvz... prepare for terran's to start going pure bio in tvz as well as tvp. because tanks are awful against ultras. what are you going to do about ultra bane oO Marauders/marines/tanks? Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:13 shizna wrote:
btw ultralisks are now a gosu unit in tvz... prepare for terran's to start going pure bio in tvz as well as tvp. because tanks are awful against ultras. pure bio means no tanks?...
Until they fix that Ultra splash damage bug pure bio can still stim and kite ultras without really taking damage.
Unless I missed something and it was fixed already? I admit that could be possible.
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I don't think the Phoenix range upgrade will do anything. It will take 300m 200g just for Fleet beacon plus at least 100m, 100g for the upgrade itself. By the time you get the upgrade, Zerg will likely have fungal by then. One fungal pretty much negates any kiting you can do. There's no point of getting the upgrade unless you go mass phoenix, and if you do, you'll have less of a ground army or the robo gets delayed. This reminds me of the Corsair's disruption web, Sound good in theory, but rarely used competitively.
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On February 11 2012 05:19 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:18 Bashion wrote:On February 11 2012 05:15 zhurai wrote:On February 11 2012 05:13 shizna wrote:
2 snipes to kill a baneling? i want to scream.
afaik NOTHING IN THE GAME (even during beta phase) was just straight up nerfed by almost 50%... it's so harsh.
btw ultralisks are now a gosu unit in tvz... prepare for terran's to start going pure bio in tvz as well as tvp. because tanks are awful against ultras. what are you going to do about ultra bane oO Marauders/marines/tanks? Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:13 shizna wrote:
btw ultralisks are now a gosu unit in tvz... prepare for terran's to start going pure bio in tvz as well as tvp. because tanks are awful against ultras. pure bio means no tanks?...
Mass marauder mass viking + 2-4 thors with all upgrades and in case of mass lings land the vikings?dunno...Vikings should be upgraded with armor first and be landed if no mutalisks around...LOL seriously this plan already seems problematic
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the fleet beacon only costs as much a 2 phoenixs, even with the upgrade cost it isnt actually that much considering how much better phoenixes will get... AWESOME!!
also mule nerf 
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On February 11 2012 05:20 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:11 zhurai wrote:On February 11 2012 05:08 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 11 2012 05:01 mTwTT1 wrote:On February 11 2012 04:58 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 11 2012 04:56 KawaiiRice wrote:
wow you must be joking haha wtf ^_^;? how will I stop bl infestor queen now? ..... dude just do what ppl tell me to do, l2p.. raven + seeker missible is pretty good vs bl's as far as ive seen, just because u never play a certain style that doesnt mean u dont have any viable options available Not sure if trolling or not, you need 2 upgrades and wait 1min and about 2000 gas for 7-8 ravens with HSM that dont even kill broodlord. the damage of the seeker missile is "pretty good" if they don't bunch up their units.... but then again... the range of seeker missile is very very very bad range is irrelevant vs bl's cus they cant run away, ive seen korean t's integrate ravens w/ ss while going mech and bio, i think the problem is just that koreans are ahead in the metagame atm obviously ghosts wont work as well vs bl's in the lategame anymore and if foreign t's cant adapt themselves to new styles then glhf going mass marines vs bl's
You're really knowledgable on Terran lategame for someone who plays toss
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On February 11 2012 05:18 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:16 JustPassingBy wrote:On February 11 2012 05:12 JustPassingBy wrote:
So, what's the explanation that mules cannot harvest more on gold minerals and snipe does psionic damage?
I mean, I understand them from a balancing point of view, but somehow I get the feeling that the starcraft universe becomes more and more abstruse from patch to patch. Well, maybe I should post some constructive solution instead of just complaining: - just decrease damage of snipe in general or up the energy cost - give calling down mules a cooldown (how long is up to discussion), that way you cannot "mass" call down mules on gold as well and it makes macroing slightly more challenging. technically they increased the damage of snipe... to like only 2 units 45 damage -> 25 damage (+25 psionic) so basically I guess against infestors+ht it'll do 50 damage, but against everything else it'll just do 45 ...
Well, I was obviously talking about the expectancy value of a potential snipe, taking a weighted sum over all units in starcraft 2 and with what percentage how many of them will be in the game. Oh, and how likely they will be targeted, of course.
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:V woooow this is friggen huge man the pheonix changes sound good and the ghost snipe changes are a welcome change. Ghost tanks on a map like shakuras was unbeatable
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I love all these changes but as a protoss I really wonder how much the phoenix range will change things.
This also means you can randomly switch to carriers without having to throw down an extra tech switch
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On February 11 2012 05:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
OMG I JUST NOTICED LOL. GHOSTS CAN NOW SNIPE INFESTORS IN TWO SHOTS INSTEAD OF THREE OMG LOL. They didn't say this??? was this not intended, or did he just leave this out? There has to be a reason why it's +25 psionic instead of +20 right? xD
he left it out
but really also ht's are affected by it too, idk if it'll take one less shot to kill those though.
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Ghosts can't even snipe a Zergling in one hit. Would have been better to do 25 damage to massive and +25 to everything else
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On February 11 2012 05:20 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:18 KawaiiRice wrote:viking + ghost until high counts won't be able to kill bl infestor queen fast enough thanks to transfuse. Luckily barely anyone in the whole world even uses transfuses well, so it's not obvious yet. and the only possible way to kill bls fast enough is with enough vikings to 1shot (snipe will basically tickle the bls now, but I guess it helps a tiny bit?)... which means you're screwed if they tech switch because that's a crapton of vikings.. or ravens which takes too long to reach, can get fungal-owned, might not even kill that many brood lords because HSM range sucks. if anyone says emp queens and infestors ... lol you trollin because only bad zerg will let that happen for what it's worth you can snipe queens though, queens are psionic
so tell me how I'm guaranteed to snipe units that are basically like (x range) behind the broodlords? it's simply not possible unless my opponent has terrible control.. ghosts would basically be like 9? range away from bls as is, would you even see queens on your screen unless your opponent showed them? because transfuse is definitely at least 5 range.
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On February 11 2012 05:19 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:08 Everlong wrote:On February 11 2012 05:06 ReignFayth wrote:
guys you can still snipe infestors effectively just need to use vikings + ghosts now always, not only ghosts How do you do this? Infestors are camping until Vikings engage.. You are absolutely not able to snipe those in time not to get fungaled in which case its over, because ALL Vikings just die right away. And you need to engage first with Vikings, because otherwise Broodlords will go all the way, so tell me, please.. This is exactly the kind of theorycrafting I can't stand, where you've got every micro movement mapped out in your attempt to convince yourself that it's impossible. It's not impossible it's just hard. Like using the bulky, clumsy, fragile infestors without them all dying is hard.
KawaiiRice United States. February 11 2012 05:18. Posts 2142 PM Profile Blog Report Quote #
viking + ghost until high counts won't be able to kill bl infestor queen fast enough thanks to transfuse. Luckily barely anyone in the whole world even uses transfuses well, so it's not obvious yet. and the only possible way to kill bls fast enough is with enough vikings to 1shot (snipe will basically tickle the bls now, but I guess it helps a tiny bit?)... which means you're screwed if they tech switch because that's a crapton of vikings.. or ravens which takes too long to reach, can get fungal-owned, might not even kill that many brood lords because HSM range sucks.
if anyone says emp queens and infestors ... lol you trollin because only bad zerg will let that happen
Allright now?
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On February 11 2012 05:21 ilikeredheads wrote:
I don't think the Phoenix range upgrade will do anything. It will take 300m 200g just for Fleet beacon plus at least 100m, 100g for the upgrade itself. By the time you get the upgrade, Zerg will likely have fungal by then. One fungal pretty much negates any kiting you can do. There's no point of getting the upgrade unless you go mass phoenix, and if you do, you'll have less of a ground army or the robo gets delayed. This reminds me of the Corsair's disruption web, Sound good in theory, but rarely used competitively.
I bet you the cost is gonna cost at least 150/150 
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TvP late game insanely hard.. .now TvZ.. damn it.
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On February 11 2012 05:16 statikg wrote:
In response to "just get ghosts to emp and vikings" or "just split your vikigns"
Hey I have a good idea, lets make terran have to micro EVEN MORE STUFF. Meanwhile all the other races can just 1A and micro their one spellcaster = balance. Hey if korean terrans can do it, everyone else probably just has to practice a bit more right.
You're looking for the ZvP Broodlords vs Mothership discussion I think.
Lol JK, but my point is every matchup has aspects that require micro.
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EPT
