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Win Rates by Race & Length of Game

Forum Index > SC2 General
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ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 21:23:39
February 04 2012 21:22 GMT
#1
Should Terran 2rax all day, every day? Should Zerg play for the late game in every matchup? Is TvP a race against the clock for Terran, losing whenever the Protoss gets Colossus and Templar Tech?

Using SC2gears and some Excel kung-fu, I tried to answer these questions and more by looking at race win rates based on the length of the game from all games at MLG Providence. I came up with this set of charts showing what happens as the game progresses (click on the image for all the charts).

[image loading]

Data here: MLG Providence Race/Length of Game Win Rates Note: times here use in-game time, not wall clock time. 5 minutes of wall-clock time is about 7 minutes of game-time

The data does show some interesting results. But I'm not satisfied that the sample size is large enough. I'd love to repeat this analysis on a bigger dataset if there is fresher and larger replay pack lying around (coughplayhemcough).

To the Pros, Masters players, and everyone: do the numbers here line up with how you think about the game? Is Terran overmatched in the late game? Does Zerg grow stronger as the game goes on? Should you 6-pool (100% Z win rate in PvZ <5 minute games) or 2-rax every (80% T win rate in ZvT 5-10 minutes) every game? Discuss.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
Ktk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)753 Posts
February 04 2012 21:32 GMT
#2
I like threads and graphs like these, but always have something to say about the data (don't stop though, for sure).

-Providence: not all matchups really even in skill :p

-On average more >20min TvZ, ZvP and TvP than TvT matchups (maybe the TvTs were like 40 minutes long, but add em up guys) - maybe there were just fewer mirrors in general though. Actually that sounds right.

But I'm not satisfied that the sample size is large enough

Agreed

Also looking at the ridiculous increase in Z and decrease for P before 5 minutes, I'm guessing 6pool is the build against P
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
February 04 2012 21:42 GMT
#3
On February 05 2012 06:32 Ktk wrote:
-On average more >20min TvZ, ZvP and TvP than TvT matchups (maybe the TvTs were like 40 minutes long, but add em up guys) - maybe there were just fewer mirrors in general though. Actually that sounds right.


I stopped at 30 minutes, and there the most common MU was TvT, TvZ was second and either ZvZ or ZvP third.

On February 05 2012 06:32 Ktk wrote:
Also looking at the ridiculous increase in Z and decrease for P before 5 minutes, I'm guessing 6pool is the build against P


Yes, this represents 3 successful 6-pools, in the same way most of the 5-10 minute TvZ games are successful 2rax.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
February 04 2012 21:47 GMT
#4
Hahahaha, ZvZ oh you...

BTW by all MLG games you mean even open bracket?

Interesting data, don´t know if its really that relevant but its always interesting to see stuff like this
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
Hoon
Profile Joined December 2010
Brazil891 Posts
February 04 2012 21:47 GMT
#5
I thing line graphs are not the right ones to be used in this kind of analysis, specially at the end of the first one, which goes from 20+ to overall.
SEn Fanclub: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170834
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
February 04 2012 22:05 GMT
#6
On February 05 2012 06:47 windsupernova wrote:
Hahahaha, ZvZ oh you...

BTW by all MLG games you mean even open bracket?

Interesting data, don´t know if its really that relevant but its always interesting to see stuff like this


Yes this includes the open bracket. If I used only pool play and the Sunday bracket there wouldn't be a meaningful number of games.


On February 05 2012 06:47 Hoon wrote:
I thing line graphs are not the right ones to be used in this kind of analysis, specially at the end of the first one, which goes from 20+ to overall.


Yeah ... what I wanted to do was just draw a straight line representing overall WRs. If I get a bigger dataset I'll try to make better graphs.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
Paramo
Profile Joined July 2008
Mexico138 Posts
February 04 2012 22:12 GMT
#7
To me this is how balance stats should be presented, the length of game variable is really something that can say a lot. Hopefully you get a bigger sample next time =D
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
February 04 2012 22:14 GMT
#8
20+ is very inaccurate :s Any chance you could do it until you reach 40+?
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
February 04 2012 22:16 GMT
#9
I guess it makes somewhat intuitive sense, but it'd be nice to have a bigger sample size.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
Mehukannu
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland421 Posts
February 04 2012 22:16 GMT
#10
Wow, nice graphs, also it is about time someone did something like this.
I just hope you manage to get bigger sample next time. I'll definitely look forward for it. =)
C=('. ' Q)
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 22:43:28
February 04 2012 22:22 GMT
#11
On February 05 2012 07:14 decaf wrote:
20+ is very inaccurate :s Any chance you could do it until you reach 40+?


I'd like to, but the sample size gets too small even at 30 minutes. By setting the cap at 20 minutes you get a sample that's roughly the size of the previous increments. I would need a much larger data set to go past 20 minutes.

Also by 20 minutes unless something has gone wrong, the game really ought to be in the "late game". Players' gas income is high enough to support lots of high-tier units. Neither player is really building up their economy much more. Most upgrades & tech has been completed. The game is much more about protecting later expansions, minimizing harassment damage, trading armies cost effectively, etc., than it is about exploiting timing attacks.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
February 04 2012 22:24 GMT
#12
Very good indication of the strengths of each race in my opinion. Thanks for this!
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
February 04 2012 22:24 GMT
#13
Ha, love how winrates for Zerg is so high below 5 minutes. The good old 6 pool.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
TheTurk
Profile Joined January 2011
United States732 Posts
February 04 2012 22:31 GMT
#14
Really awesome stats.
Thanks for putting this together.
Starcraft is a lifestyle.
qbs
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland771 Posts
February 04 2012 22:31 GMT
#15
late game T looks nice O_o
thx for the graph man !
DeMusliM !!!
Jayjay54
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2296 Posts
February 04 2012 22:47 GMT
#16
On February 05 2012 07:24 Bagration wrote:
Ha, love how winrates for Zerg is so high below 5 minutes. The good old 6 pool.


still the best cheese, screw cannons. it's the mother of cheese. you can call it milk. or even cow.
Things are laid back in Unidenland. And may the road ahead be lid with dreams and tomorrows. Which are lid with dreams. Also.
Gyro_SC2
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada540 Posts
February 04 2012 22:50 GMT
#17
With sc2gear can we know the pourcentage of win of a strategy? Can you know the unit composition at the end of each game?
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
February 04 2012 22:51 GMT
#18
The 'Overall' at the end of the first graph kinda gives the wrong impression. The X-axis there represents time which is increasing left-to-right, while 'Overall' is simply the overall winrate, not based on time. If someone doesn't read the X-axis it seems like Terran winrate steadily goes down as time progresses, then suddenly spikes at the end.

But other than that nice data.
Primal666
Profile Joined November 2010
Slovenia418 Posts
February 04 2012 22:56 GMT
#19
On February 05 2012 07:24 K3Nyy wrote:
Very good indication of the strengths of each race in my opinion. Thanks for this!

or current metagame
AndreiDaGiant
Profile Joined October 2010
United States394 Posts
February 04 2012 22:58 GMT
#20
This is what i would expect. It feels like im on the clock vs zerg and protoss when i play as terran
Terran Metal for the Win
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