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On February 14 2012 00:54 Sated wrote:
Wow. Looking at that, PvT is a case of getting to the 20 minute mark and still being alive. Probably due to the large number of viable all-ins Terran can do off one base compared to the number Protoss can do, and the fact that 2base Terran w/ enough bunkers and repair is incredibly difficult to break with a timing attack.
I dont think a large number of 1 base strats are viable anymore could you give some examples, for breaking bunkers try 6 gating with FF its pretty good.
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Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats.
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On February 14 2012 02:27 Freud wrote:
Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats.
I think blizzard wants less than 25% win rate in late game Terran since the overall win rate for Terran is still highest. Since Terran is already winning games under 10 minutes, they need to weaken Terran late game more so that it balances the overall win% statistics.
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On February 12 2012 12:36 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 12:20 CptCutter wrote:On February 11 2012 23:30 Roblin wrote:On February 11 2012 21:34 david0925 wrote:
I really want to see the number of games involved in the game length winning percentage in each data point.
I'm not arguing for or against Terran late game, but as far as I know Terrans try to finish their games very early. So if the late game count is drastically lower than mid game it might be at least part of the reason. I extracted and recompiled the information in the OP for personal use, but you might find it good to know too. games played and the respective winrates (non-mirrors, taken by inspection, approximations, error small and almost negligable) syntax: games total: the total amount of games played during thedescribed timeframe, wins and losses winrate: the winrate of the first mentioned race (for TvP, its the winrate for T, the P winrate is 100-T winrate) games won: the amount of games won by the first mentioned race during the timeframe. TvP: + Show Spoiler +PvZ + Show Spoiler +ZvT + Show Spoiler + man i love that tvz statistic for after the 15-20min marker. 35%! just brilliant, anyone want to make bets on how much lower it drops after the snipe nerf? i bet it will drop below 20% Unless I'm missing something, the statistics apply to the first race mentioned in the matchup (which would be Z in ZvT), meaning that Z is the one with the 35% winrate 20+ minutes in? I'm confused.
It's a typo, it's supposed to say TvZ :3
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On February 14 2012 02:39 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:27 Freud wrote:
Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats. I think blizzard wants less than 25% win rate in late game Terran since the overall win rate for Terran is still highest. Since Terran is already winning games under 10 minutes, they need to weaken Terran late game more so that it balances the overall win% statistics.
I think the issue most of us Terrans have is that this seems like bad game design. We want a way to play a macro game in all three MU. Ghosts allowed us to do that in tvz. Now that that is going away we need to figure out a new way to go into the late game tvz. I think most of us would rather have other races get some buff that would help them in the early game, rather than make our late game just that much weaker.
As much as I like executing a solid timing attack, I'd prefer if that option was weakened slightly and I were given the opportunity to play a long macro game. Our complaint, I think anyway, isn't that a ghost nerf will make tvz, Zerg favored over all but that it will make Terran late game even less viable than it already is.
tldr; buff Z early game, buff T late game, MU balance as a whole.
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On February 14 2012 02:39 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:27 Freud wrote:
Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats. I think blizzard wants less than 25% win rate in late game Terran since the overall win rate for Terran is still highest. Since Terran is already winning games under 10 minutes, they need to weaken Terran late game more so that it balances the overall win% statistics.
what a retarded way to fix the problem and destroying fun in playing one race
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On February 14 2012 02:39 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:27 Freud wrote:
Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats. I think blizzard wants less than 25% win rate in late game Terran since the overall win rate for Terran is still highest. Since Terran is already winning games under 10 minutes, they need to weaken Terran late game more so that it balances the overall win% statistics.
Troll I hope/suspect... otherwise you logic is hilarious at best... With that logic you are basically saying that its perfectly fine if a race has an ultimate end game unit that will win you the game 100 % of the time.
So if Terran cant kill Zerg by the 20 min mark, the game just ends when Zerg has teched up to this God. This is in a way what 1.4.3 will mean for TvZ. And just as IMBensin says; if you cant play a standard macro game against Zerg, then whats the point in trying. There will just be loads of 1-2 base all-ins... And thats just boring... =(
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So, how would you go about interpreting this stuff?
For example: ZvT. Winrates for Zerg seem to go up with the length of the match.
One might think: "Ok, Zerg seems to have the late game advantage here, I should play the most Macro game possible!".
Another way of thinking would be: "Hmmm, seems like all the Zerg play way too macro and get owned for it early game."
Pretty contradicting conclusions. Quite interesting stuff though, love statistics data on this game.
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This topic is the reason why SC 2 will never be as good as SC 1.
David Kim PLEASE watch this thread and balance the game by this standards.
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On February 14 2012 03:06 Freud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:39 VPFaith wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 Freud wrote:
Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats. I think blizzard wants less than 25% win rate in late game Terran since the overall win rate for Terran is still highest. Since Terran is already winning games under 10 minutes, they need to weaken Terran late game more so that it balances the overall win% statistics. Troll I hope/suspect... otherwise you logic is hilarious at best... With that logic you are basically saying that its perfectly fine if a race has an ultimate end game unit that will win you the game 100 % of the time. So if Terran cant kill Zerg by the 20 min mark, the game just ends when Zerg has teched up to this God. This is in a way what 1.4.3 will mean for TvZ. And just as IMBensin says; if you cant play a standard macro game against Zerg, then whats the point in trying. There will just be loads of 1-2 base all-ins... And thats just boring... =(
I am a Terran player. I didn't say 100% zergs win after 20 minute mark. I'm just saying majority of the zergs will enjoy late game past 20 minute mark. <3
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On February 14 2012 03:23 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:06 Freud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:39 VPFaith wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 Freud wrote:
Can someone please send these stats to the missinformed guys at Blizzard who decided to turn Ghosts into Goats. I think blizzard wants less than 25% win rate in late game Terran since the overall win rate for Terran is still highest. Since Terran is already winning games under 10 minutes, they need to weaken Terran late game more so that it balances the overall win% statistics. Troll I hope/suspect... otherwise you logic is hilarious at best... With that logic you are basically saying that its perfectly fine if a race has an ultimate end game unit that will win you the game 100 % of the time. So if Terran cant kill Zerg by the 20 min mark, the game just ends when Zerg has teched up to this God. This is in a way what 1.4.3 will mean for TvZ. And just as IMBensin says; if you cant play a standard macro game against Zerg, then whats the point in trying. There will just be loads of 1-2 base all-ins... And thats just boring... =( I am a Terran player. I didn't say 100% zergs win after 20 minute mark. I'm just saying majority of the zergs will enjoy late game past 20 minute mark. <3
Considering most Zergs wait for Broodlords to finish off a terran, most games would take a while. As a protoss, I would rather deny a terran the ability to expand than attempt to finish them off early on. Even games where the terran goes 1/1/1 take around 12-15 minutes to resolve if the protoss wins.
The lenght of the game may not directly relate to the moment when one player won. When you get an advantage against a terran, it is a slow process of playing safely and using that advantage to finish them off.
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Interesting to see, but i arent sure if i should trust this. Protoss loses agaisnt terran? until late game?
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On February 14 2012 03:32 Plansix wrote:
The length of the game may not directly relate to the moment when one player won. When you get an advantage against a terran, it is a slow process of playing safely and using that advantage to finish them off.
This is exactly correct. When the OP asks if the statistics mean that Zerg should 6-pool more often b/c they win 100% of the games that are less than 5 minutes, the answer is a simply you cannot make this type of conclusion from these statistics. In this case, if a Zerg player 6-pools, they will either a) win in the first 5 minutes, b) come out roughly even and transition into a longer game, or c) do no damage and lose somewhere in the 5-15 minute range. So, if the game is <5 minutes, it means that Zerg won. It doesn't mean that 6pools are successful or unsuccessful percentage-wise.
Similarly, if Terrans do some sort of strong 2-base timing in TvZ, then they will either a) win a quick game, b) come out roughly even and transition into a longer game, c) not do enough damage and be behind, most likely losing in the late game because of it. Regardless of when a Zerg gets ahead in ZvT, they will most likely win later in the game simply b/c it's hard to completely kill off a Terran and end the game before brood lords or ultras come out. When a Terran gets ahead in TvZ, on the other hand, they can use their advantage to do a game-ending push, especially since passively macroing is a good way to let Zerg catch up.
Note: I am not saying that Terrans tend to do 2-base timings or that 6pools don't work in ZvP. All I'm saying is that you can't make the conclusions that almost everyone is making in this thread based on these statistics. It might be true that Z late-game is stronger than T late-game assuming all else is equal, but these statistics are not supporting evidence. It might be true that T early-mid game is stronger than T early-mid game, but these statistics are not supporting evidence.
Please stop drawing stupid conclusions from these statistics.
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pvz makes a lot of sense- 0-5 is i guess 6 pool/ cannon rush no surprise z has edge there; 5-10 roach ling pushes i suppose; 10-15 gateway all-ins, 15-20 p death pushes 20+ infestor/bl before mother ship out
surprised about pvt tho. i'd think 10-15 would be closer if not p favored; 15-20 is always death zone for pvt; usually ends up p isn't able to take 3rd and t just kills them off 3 bases or strong 2 base. 20+ i guess dual tech or p was able to stabalize on 3+ bases.
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To be honest, I don't really care about Terran units getting nerfed every patch. In fact, it makes me a better player because each patch forces Terran players to improve and find better ways to counter these nerfs. For example, when ghost emps nerf was introduced, I changed my TvP in that I don't use ghosts, instead, Triple expand and multi-prong harass vs the Protoss players during midgame. I improved a lot with my multitasking int that I can harass multiple fronts while pushing and hitting at the front. I think it helps Terran players more to improve even though the game gets harder and harder for Terran. Then again, I kinda feel sad about the other races as they rely a lot on patches that go in their favor, hence, less motivation to improve. I don't know, but this is my take and experience on this so far. What do you guys think?
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So basically Zerg already owns late game TvZ, this only makes that snipe nerf look even more ridiculous.... Based on the rest of those graphs, I shouldnt really be trying to get my macro up, terran seems to have very little luck after 15 mins, so I need to start basing all mu builds off of one or two base timing pushes 
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On February 14 2012 04:03 CaptainCrush wrote:So basically Zerg already owns late game TvZ, this only makes that snipe nerf look even more ridiculous.... Based on the rest of those graphs, I shouldnt really be trying to get my macro up, terran seems to have very little luck after 15 mins, so I need to start basing all mu builds off of one or two base timing pushes
No, you are misinterpreting the statistics. That is not what they mean (see my previous post).
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On February 14 2012 04:03 CaptainCrush wrote:So basically Zerg already owns late game TvZ, this only makes that snipe nerf look even more ridiculous.... Based on the rest of those graphs, I shouldnt really be trying to get my macro up, terran seems to have very little luck after 15 mins, so I need to start basing all mu builds off of one or two base timing pushes
You make the mistake of assuming that in all of those games that both players were on equal footing the entire game. The stats could mean that terran takes longer to finish off than the other two races and can play from behind for longer.
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On February 14 2012 04:01 VPFaith wrote:
To be honest, I don't really care about Terran units getting nerfed every patch. In fact, it makes me a better player because each patch forces Terran players to improve and find better ways to counter these nerfs. For example, when ghost emps nerf was introduced, I changed my TvP in that I don't use ghosts, instead, Triple expand and multi-prong harass vs the Protoss players during midgame. I improved a lot with my multitasking int that I can harass multiple fronts while pushing and hitting at the front. I think it helps Terran players more to improve even though the game gets harder and harder for Terran. Then again, I kinda feel sad about the other races as they rely a lot on patches that go in their favor, hence, less motivation to improve. I don't know, but this is my take and experience on this so far. What do you guys think?
i think you just continued making banshees each patch ^^
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EPT
