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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 19 2012 04:43 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 04:28 Honeybadger wrote:On February 19 2012 03:28 Resistentialism wrote:
I don't remember this part, actually. You must have overslept. It's okay, happens to the best of us. But remember, there was no heavy-handed nerf in this regard. They buffed immortals, and it became easily balanced at low levels. No, you must have overslept. In order for the protoss to be able to win against this build, which WAS imbalanced, the following things had to happen: - maps had to be changed (no more caverns and other shitty maps in tournaments) - immortals had to be given +1 range - barracks had to be delayed by 5 seconds Only after all this, is 1/1/1 no longer a free win against protoss.
the 5 second barracks change has no impact on the 1/1/1, really. 5 seconds is so insanely minute, 1 marine being 5 seconds late to the party will not have a single impact. Not a good point.
Maps changing to suit the metagame are EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. Brood war was basically unpatched and the maps were the method used for balance, AS IT SHOULD BE. Also not a good point.
Immortals given +1 range was not just for the 1/1/1, it also helped in every regard without making things harder for terran overall. It is also so minor, that it's not game-changing for the 1/1/1. Not a good point either. Watching pro replays, I still find that immortal right at the front lines, getting hammered on by the marines before it can even get in meaningful damage on the tank. The immortal is primarily a tanking unit while the rest of the army does the damage, and the range buff had nothing to do with it, it was all about how the protoss used the unit. Strike three.
You'll find now that the 1/1/1 doesn't remain "imbalanced" when it comes to old maps like metal, xel'naga, etc. So even on "shitty" maps, that 1-2 extra marines being a whole five seconds (and let's be honest, nobody, except at the VERY TOP TIER of players, is good enough to make those 5 seconds even count in any meaningful regard) late, and with NOTHING but those +1 immortals, the 1/1/1 is still powerful, but easily held with proper scouting, positioning, and tactics.
My point was this: the players figured it out. It still remained somewhat difficult at the lower tier, so the map tweaks (which helped against the 10-15 terran players still able to take advantage of that 5 second window) combined with the overall tiny immortal buff (which also helps pvp and pvz bigtime, improving variety in protoss compositions, which is why NOBODY complained about the buff) fixed the lower tiers. No retarded 1-2 combo hits like reaper nerf PLUS roach range (let's be honest, roach range would have solved the reaper problem at the lower levels. period. Even with the fact that the 5RR was very defendable at the high levels, it was just a high pressure expand build) or this huge change to ghosts, the only reason non-pro level players even survive in late-game tvz. This is not a gentle tweak, and blizzard has shown time and time again that once a change is made, it is almost NEVER undone, even if it proves itself a failure (such as the reaper nerf. It can easily be undone without breaking anything)
Small changes are what's needed, and they usually need to be in the right direction. Stop nerfing terran units so badly that they need even MORE micro than they already do, just buff the counters in very small ways AFTER the metagame has had its way with the build, and look for other ways such as map design.
Remember back in beta where a 2 immortal rush in pvt was completely unbeatable? As in, a month and a half of ZERO wins on terran side. No patch change, BOOM, figured out in the metagame.
Seriously, stop whining and calling things imbalanced. There is almost no such thing as imbalanced. You're making Day9 cry.
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On February 19 2012 04:57 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 04:43 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 04:28 Honeybadger wrote:On February 19 2012 03:28 Resistentialism wrote:
I don't remember this part, actually. You must have overslept. It's okay, happens to the best of us. But remember, there was no heavy-handed nerf in this regard. They buffed immortals, and it became easily balanced at low levels. No, you must have overslept. In order for the protoss to be able to win against this build, which WAS imbalanced, the following things had to happen: - maps had to be changed (no more caverns and other shitty maps in tournaments) - immortals had to be given +1 range - barracks had to be delayed by 5 seconds Only after all this, is 1/1/1 no longer a free win against protoss. the 5 second barracks change has no impact on the 1/1/1, really. 5 seconds is so insanely minute, 1 marine being 5 seconds late to the party will not have a single impact. Not a good point. Maps changing to suit the metagame are EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. Brood war was basically unpatched and the maps were the method used for balance, AS IT SHOULD BE. Also not a good point. Immortals given +1 range was not just for the 1/1/1, it also helped in every regard without making things harder for terran overall. It is also so minor, that it's not game-changing for the 1/1/1. Not a good point either. Watching pro replays, I still find that immortal right at the front lines, getting hammered on by the marines before it can even get in meaningful damage on the tank. The immortal is primarily a tanking unit while the rest of the army does the damage, and the range buff had nothing to do with it, it was all about how the protoss used the unit. Strike three. You'll find now that the 1/1/1 doesn't remain "imbalanced" when it comes to old maps like metal, xel'naga, etc. So even on "shitty" maps, that 1-2 extra marines being a whole five seconds (and let's be honest, nobody, except at the VERY TOP TIER of players, is good enough to make those 5 seconds even count in any meaningful regard) late, and with NOTHING but those +1 immortals, the 1/1/1 is still powerful, but easily held with proper scouting, positioning, and tactics. My point was this: the players figured it out. It still remained somewhat difficult at the lower tier, so the map tweaks (which helped against the 10-15 terran players still able to take advantage of that 5 second window) combined with the overall tiny immortal buff (which also helps pvp and pvz bigtime, improving variety in protoss compositions, which is why NOBODY complained about the buff) fixed the lower tiers. No retarded 1-2 combo hits like reaper nerf PLUS roach range (let's be honest, roach range would have solved the reaper problem at the lower levels. period. Even with the fact that the 5RR was very defendable at the high levels, it was just a high pressure expand build) or this huge change to ghosts, the only reason non-pro level players even survive in late-game tvz. This is not a gentle tweak, and blizzard has shown time and time again that once a change is made, it is almost NEVER undone, even if it proves itself a failure (such as the reaper nerf. It can easily be undone without breaking anything) Small changes are what's needed, and they usually need to be in the right direction. Stop nerfing terran units so badly that they need even MORE micro than they already do, just buff the counters in very small ways AFTER the metagame has had its way with the build, and look for other ways such as map design. Remember back in beta where a 2 immortal rush in pvt was completely unbeatable? As in, a month and a half of ZERO wins on terran side. No patch change, BOOM, figured out in the metagame. Seriously, stop whining and calling things imbalanced. There is almost no such thing as imbalanced. You're making Day9 cry.
No, just no.
111 was imba at all tiers. And players figured nothing out. A number of changes had to be made. All these smal things make a difference.
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
2) Maps had to be changed, so that a terran needs more time to arrive at you doorstep. This is simply HUGE.
3) Immortal buff makes positioning easier and gives you maybe one extra shot on the tank.
All in all, players did little, while balancing took care of things. And making better maps IS part of the process of balancing, as opposed to "figuring things out".
And it was a good call to get rid of the 5RR. Terrans dont need an additional abuso build. They have enough already.
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On February 19 2012 01:31 StarscreamG1 wrote:
With this patch NesTea would be Blizzard champ for sure :-)
Yeah, undeserved, as poorly as he did in the last engagement.
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On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
No, just no.
111 was imba at all tiers. And players figured nothing out. A number of changes had to be made. All these smal things make a difference.
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
2) Maps had to be changed, so that a terran needs more time to arrive at you doorstep. This is simply HUGE.
3) Immortal buff makes positioning easier and gives you maybe one extra shot on the tank.
All in all, players did little, while balancing took care of things. And making better maps IS part of the process of balancing, as opposed to "figuring things out".
And it was a good call to get rid of the 5RR. Terrans dont need an additional abuso build. They have enough already.
Ignorance is bliss, my friend. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally want blizzard to stay out of the game, because every patch just makes things harder for me than they already are.
I don't want them to get rid of ANYTHING that isn't 100% game breaking, after giving the community time to fix it themselves. Variety is the spice of life.
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On February 19 2012 05:48 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
No, just no.
111 was imba at all tiers. And players figured nothing out. A number of changes had to be made. All these smal things make a difference.
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
2) Maps had to be changed, so that a terran needs more time to arrive at you doorstep. This is simply HUGE.
3) Immortal buff makes positioning easier and gives you maybe one extra shot on the tank.
All in all, players did little, while balancing took care of things. And making better maps IS part of the process of balancing, as opposed to "figuring things out".
And it was a good call to get rid of the 5RR. Terrans dont need an additional abuso build. They have enough already. Ignorance is bliss, my friend. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally want blizzard to stay out of the game, because every patch just makes things harder for me than they already are.
Right. I want Blizz to do what ever it takes, to ensure a balanced game, even if from now on, you spoiled terrans have to suffer.
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On February 19 2012 05:50 PureBalls wrote:
Right. I want Blizz to do what ever it takes, to ensure a balanced game, even if from now on, you spoiled terrans have to suffer.
This tells me a lot about your mindset. G'day.
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On February 19 2012 06:03 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:50 PureBalls wrote:
Right. I want Blizz to do what ever it takes, to ensure a balanced game, even if from now on, you spoiled terrans have to suffer. This tells me a lot about your mindset. G'day.
And what about your mindset?
"harder for me" were your words. So its OK for you, that players from other races have a hard time beating your race, as long as you dont have to break a sweat?
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On February 19 2012 05:50 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:48 Honeybadger wrote:On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
No, just no.
111 was imba at all tiers. And players figured nothing out. A number of changes had to be made. All these smal things make a difference.
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
2) Maps had to be changed, so that a terran needs more time to arrive at you doorstep. This is simply HUGE.
3) Immortal buff makes positioning easier and gives you maybe one extra shot on the tank.
All in all, players did little, while balancing took care of things. And making better maps IS part of the process of balancing, as opposed to "figuring things out".
And it was a good call to get rid of the 5RR. Terrans dont need an additional abuso build. They have enough already. Ignorance is bliss, my friend. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally want blizzard to stay out of the game, because every patch just makes things harder for me than they already are. Right. I want Blizz to do what ever it takes, to ensure a balanced game, even if from now on, you spoiled terrans have to suffer.
I don't want a balanced game that is basically dumbed down to boring standard strats where everybody has to sits on his ass for 10-15 minutes then somebody wins. They're making the game less interesting patch by patch yeah there had been some imbalanced but bandaidfixes that basically remove units was not the way to go .
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On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
How can you even dare to say that it makes a difference? MULEs do not instantly harvest 270 minerals, you know? And no one cares about having 5 less minerals because your SCV building has to spend 5 more seconds to build the Barracks. And you know why no one cares? Because with a standard 12 Barracks 13 Refinery opening, gas is the limiting factor in how fast you can get your Factory. Gas. Not Barracks production time or minerals.
Immortals having one more range did help, map distance sure did too, but in the end players are now able to deal with 1-1-1 because they found efficient build orders and army compositions.
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1-1-1 is still crazily good and does well in tournaments. Just because it's like a 60-70% winrate with that strategy rather than a 95% like it used to be doesn't mean the build is suddenly terrible.
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On February 19 2012 06:09 PureBalls wrote:
And what about your mindset?
"harder for me" were your words. So its OK for you, that players from other races have a hard time beating your race, as long as you dont have to break a sweat?
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't arbitrarily call the other races "spoiled."
This is a dead horse. Leave it be before this turns into personal attacks and winds up getting one (or both) of us banned.
And thank you to the 3 people above me understanding my point.
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On February 19 2012 06:17 Shiori wrote:
1-1-1 is still crazily good and does well in tournaments. Just because it's like a 60-70% winrate with that strategy rather than a 95% like it used to be doesn't mean the build is suddenly terrible.
Source for those numbers?
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On February 19 2012 06:15 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up. How can you even dare to say that it makes a difference? MULEs do not instantly harvest 270 minerals, you know? And no one cares about having 5 less minerals because your SCV building has to spend 5 more seconds to build the Barracks. And you know why no one cares? Because with a standard 12 Barracks 13 Refinery opening, gas is the limiting factor in how fast you can get your Factory. Gas. Not Barracks production time or minerals. I mmortals having one more range did help, map distance sure did too, but in the end players are now able to deal with 1-1-1 because they found efficient build orders and army compositions.
For example?
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On February 19 2012 06:13 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:50 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 05:48 Honeybadger wrote:On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
No, just no.
111 was imba at all tiers. And players figured nothing out. A number of changes had to be made. All these smal things make a difference.
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
2) Maps had to be changed, so that a terran needs more time to arrive at you doorstep. This is simply HUGE.
3) Immortal buff makes positioning easier and gives you maybe one extra shot on the tank.
All in all, players did little, while balancing took care of things. And making better maps IS part of the process of balancing, as opposed to "figuring things out".
And it was a good call to get rid of the 5RR. Terrans dont need an additional abuso build. They have enough already. Ignorance is bliss, my friend. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally want blizzard to stay out of the game, because every patch just makes things harder for me than they already are. Right. I want Blizz to do what ever it takes, to ensure a balanced game, even if from now on, you spoiled terrans have to suffer. I don't want a balanced game that is basically dumbed down to boring standard strats where everybody has to sits on his ass for 10-15 minutes then somebody wins. They're making the game less interesting patch by patch yeah there had been some imbalanced but bandaidfixes that basically remove units was not the way to go .
You should have voiced your opinion, when the voidray was being robbed of its late game potential, or when KA was entirely removed, instead of nerfed. I'm afraid, now its too late.
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On February 19 2012 06:35 timed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 06:17 Shiori wrote:
1-1-1 is still crazily good and does well in tournaments. Just because it's like a 60-70% winrate with that strategy rather than a 95% like it used to be doesn't mean the build is suddenly terrible. Source for those numbers?
Just my personal opinion from watching tournaments: it used to be a free win, now it's iffy but I still see 1-1-1s come out on top more often than no.
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On February 19 2012 06:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 06:35 timed wrote:On February 19 2012 06:17 Shiori wrote:
1-1-1 is still crazily good and does well in tournaments. Just because it's like a 60-70% winrate with that strategy rather than a 95% like it used to be doesn't mean the build is suddenly terrible. Source for those numbers? Just my personal opinion from watching tournaments: it used to be a free win, now it's iffy but I still see 1-1-1s come out on top more often than no.
Because 1-1-1 is the only viable strat in PvT right now. MarineKingPrime said it himself, it isn't possible to win in a macro game against Protoss except he does major mistakes.
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On February 19 2012 06:48 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 06:42 Shiori wrote:On February 19 2012 06:35 timed wrote:On February 19 2012 06:17 Shiori wrote:
1-1-1 is still crazily good and does well in tournaments. Just because it's like a 60-70% winrate with that strategy rather than a 95% like it used to be doesn't mean the build is suddenly terrible. Source for those numbers? Just my personal opinion from watching tournaments: it used to be a free win, now it's iffy but I still see 1-1-1s come out on top more often than no. Because 1-1-1 is the only viable strat in PvT right now. MarineKingPrime said it himself, it isn't possible to win in a macro game against Protoss except he does major mistakes.
Yeah, fucking protoss, winning all them GSLs the last 12 months, as well as all the other tournaments, and having 60% win rate in PvT...
Oh wait, I must have mixed up something.
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On February 19 2012 06:48 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 06:42 Shiori wrote:On February 19 2012 06:35 timed wrote:On February 19 2012 06:17 Shiori wrote:
1-1-1 is still crazily good and does well in tournaments. Just because it's like a 60-70% winrate with that strategy rather than a 95% like it used to be doesn't mean the build is suddenly terrible. Source for those numbers? Just my personal opinion from watching tournaments: it used to be a free win, now it's iffy but I still see 1-1-1s come out on top more often than no. Because 1-1-1 is the only viable strat in PvT right now. MarineKingPrime said it himself, it isn't possible to win in a macro game against Protoss except he does major mistakes.
MKP is wrong.
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On February 19 2012 06:41 PureBalls wrote:
You should have voiced your opinion, when the voidray was being robbed of its late game potential, or when KA was entirely removed, instead of nerfed. I'm afraid, now its too late.
The KA had been shown over almost a year to be far too powerful. Instant storms combined with the warp-in mechanic? Please. All the pros agreed that the KA removal was flat out necessary.
God, what a high-horse. I wonder what race you play.
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On February 19 2012 06:41 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 06:13 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 05:50 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 05:48 Honeybadger wrote:On February 19 2012 05:08 PureBalls wrote:
No, just no.
111 was imba at all tiers. And players figured nothing out. A number of changes had to be made. All these smal things make a difference.
1) 5 sec is more than you think. Its not about the first marine, but rather the first mule. Whether you get those 270 minerals now or in 5 sec is a big difference. Plus, your scv, that should be mining, now spends 5 extra seconds building. This all ads up.
2) Maps had to be changed, so that a terran needs more time to arrive at you doorstep. This is simply HUGE.
3) Immortal buff makes positioning easier and gives you maybe one extra shot on the tank.
All in all, players did little, while balancing took care of things. And making better maps IS part of the process of balancing, as opposed to "figuring things out".
And it was a good call to get rid of the 5RR. Terrans dont need an additional abuso build. They have enough already. Ignorance is bliss, my friend. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally want blizzard to stay out of the game, because every patch just makes things harder for me than they already are. Right. I want Blizz to do what ever it takes, to ensure a balanced game, even if from now on, you spoiled terrans have to suffer. I don't want a balanced game that is basically dumbed down to boring standard strats where everybody has to sits on his ass for 10-15 minutes then somebody wins. They're making the game less interesting patch by patch yeah there had been some imbalanced but bandaidfixes that basically remove units was not the way to go . You should have voiced your opinion, when the voidray was being robbed of its late game potential, or when KA was entirely removed, instead of nerfed. I'm afraid, now its too late.
Right now they're patching everything towards hardcountering and making those things useless against basically everything they're not supposed to counter . And it's making the game worse and worse . In HOTS they should just get rid of basically every +damaged to specific armor or least most of it and adjust the units accordingly. Its not allways possible switch up counters fast enough with also keeping up upgrades on everything. It's just is bad design in my mind. Yeah some units should be specialists but not as many as the game does right now.
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EPT
