|
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 17 2012 03:58 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:39 Naeroon wrote:On February 17 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:45 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word. Would shitty satire based on gameplay aspects that everyone have to do be sufficient instead? Strawman works fine as a word for what you're attempting, and the sad thing is that you were even wrong with half of your examples. Zerglings do autosurround, and making sure your corruptors are not hovering over marines is not a micro challenge. Half of your points were on the same difficulty level as pressing stim as terran. On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue. Nerfing snipe is bad not because 45 damage snipes might solve a balance point, because that'd imply that the game right now is as good as it will always get, and that it should be balanced around this point. By implying that BL/Infestor/corrupt = marine/viking/tank/ghost and that's the endgame of these matchups, and since currently ghosts deal to well with the zerg endgame it needs to be nerfed, because there is nothing else zergs can do after that. Nerfing snipe is bad because it limits new types of strategies from ever being allowed to evolve, and it's the same reason removing carriers and the mothership in hots is a bad idea. You might say that snipe isn't being removed, but the practical application is the same. Snipe like this will only be used against psionics, limiting the unit and spells. you know, what you are doing now is an actual strawman. instead of being on the topic of my posts (Terrans saying zerg is easy), you try to open a discussion to which degree the things I was talking about can be called control. but to make you happy: yes, zerglings autosurround and speeding this up by constant pre-and respreading/targeting like we see from good zerg players before/during battles is completly useless. just like it is supereasy to find good spots to engage with corruptors against 9range vikings, snipes, thors and stimming marines. god, how i love a-click God damn anytime I hear somebody say terran is a-click/a-move it makes my blood fucking boil. Just try to a-move a lategame terran army against a lategame zerg or protoss army. Then maybe you'll learn to shut the fuck up. I don't think he's actually claiming that in this case; I think he's saying that people who say lategame zerg is a-click are wrong.
ty... imo none of the races are a-click. and none of the mechanisms in sc2 is really hard. however doing everything simutanously with the needed precision/focus is hard.
|
On February 17 2012 04:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:51 shizna wrote:
big j how do you stand on the snipe nerf with regards to the 'fun' side of the game?
because you don't need to be a clairvoyant to see that terran are going to turtle even more and just drop drop drop. then build more planetary fortresses and then drop some more.... i hope you're looking forward to 50+ minute stalemate games.
the ghost at least gave terran a chance to attack. now no chance to attack, because you'll get crushed by ultralisk/broodlord infestor any time you move out... yay lets sit here all day. fun times.
it's exactly the same in TvP right now.... the player who wins is the player who doesn't die of boredom.
it's a boring, broken.... anti-spectator game. i dont think so. Terrans and zerg both have the range to slowly gain ground (9range viking, 13range tank, 9range infestor, 9.5range broodlord). terrans have nukes to gain ground. both can spam vikings and corruptors and try to bruteforce win the airbattle. and there is a ton of experimental stuff that we might have seen once or twice, that could be great in such situations like IT pushes, autoturret/pdd pushes, crawler pushes, yamato pushes. and Ultras are really not supplyefficient (unlike banelings); they have their strenghts, but fighting a maxed terran is not one of them.
why push? pushing will mean you're at a disadvantage... so why push? a smart player will turtle and wait for opponent to get bored and attack into them.
ergo two smart players = boring stalemate with no transitions, no counters, no variation.
at least infestor/broodlord in ZvP gives a one-sided dynamic to late game. protoss therefore have an objective to get a solid advantage before the zerg tier3. both PvT and ZvT (after snipe nerf) are terrible unwinnable turtle-fests unless one player makes a collossal error... neither player has an incentive to attack versus turtle style because it's not effective.
|
On February 17 2012 04:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:58 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 03:39 Naeroon wrote:On February 17 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:45 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word. Would shitty satire based on gameplay aspects that everyone have to do be sufficient instead? Strawman works fine as a word for what you're attempting, and the sad thing is that you were even wrong with half of your examples. Zerglings do autosurround, and making sure your corruptors are not hovering over marines is not a micro challenge. Half of your points were on the same difficulty level as pressing stim as terran. On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue. Nerfing snipe is bad not because 45 damage snipes might solve a balance point, because that'd imply that the game right now is as good as it will always get, and that it should be balanced around this point. By implying that BL/Infestor/corrupt = marine/viking/tank/ghost and that's the endgame of these matchups, and since currently ghosts deal to well with the zerg endgame it needs to be nerfed, because there is nothing else zergs can do after that. Nerfing snipe is bad because it limits new types of strategies from ever being allowed to evolve, and it's the same reason removing carriers and the mothership in hots is a bad idea. You might say that snipe isn't being removed, but the practical application is the same. Snipe like this will only be used against psionics, limiting the unit and spells. you know, what you are doing now is an actual strawman. instead of being on the topic of my posts (Terrans saying zerg is easy), you try to open a discussion to which degree the things I was talking about can be called control. but to make you happy: yes, zerglings autosurround and speeding this up by constant pre-and respreading/targeting like we see from good zerg players before/during battles is completly useless. just like it is supereasy to find good spots to engage with corruptors against 9range vikings, snipes, thors and stimming marines. god, how i love a-click God damn anytime I hear somebody say terran is a-click/a-move it makes my blood fucking boil. Just try to a-move a lategame terran army against a lategame zerg or protoss army. Then maybe you'll learn to shut the fuck up. I don't think he's actually claiming that in this case; I think he's saying that people who say lategame zerg is a-click are wrong. ty... imo none of the races are a-click. and none of the mechanisms in sc2 is really hard. however doing everything simutanously with the needed precision/focus is hard.
Protoss can a move against zerg and terran, terran is the LEAST a movable race at higher levels.
|
Zerg is not an a move race, but they are definitely the most A-moveable in non mirror matchups.
Positioning is critical for all three races, but unit control is a much more delicate multitasking process for Terran and Protoss.
At the highest level, APM is not an issue, so it doesn't really matter, but Terran and toss armies are generally more fragile depending on composition because they have expensive support units. Its all composition thoough, ling/infestor play can be pretty micro intensive for zerg.
|
On February 16 2012 22:33 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:12 shizna wrote:
you don't effectively remove something from the game just because you don't see it very often... that's showing complete denial about the existence of a metagame. You don't remove it "just because you don't see it" indeed, but inversely, you can't say a balance change is bad just because it has the side effect of killing a strategy that is almost never used. Sniping banelings is good, but how many people actually switch to ghosts to fight against banelings? If a weird phoenix strategy happened, and their damage against armored had to be nerfed, people would probably complain that it makes them even less useful against colossi. Technically true, but it doesn't really matter because only a tiny minority of players could successfully counter colossi with phoenixes. See what I mean?
What the hell are you talking about?
Do you play Protoss? Phoenix play has become a ultra strong build since Blink timing nerf and can for now hold off colossus builds and in some cases discourage colossus play altogether. If phoenix got a nerf vs. armored they would be completely useless vs. colossus and they would have trouble holding off roaches in stargate 6 gate expands that are now one of the most popular builds vs. nerfs.
A nerf like that would completely change the metagame.
|
He was making up a nearly wholey hypothetical example. Little more reading comprehension, please.
|
On February 17 2012 05:33 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:33 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:12 shizna wrote:
you don't effectively remove something from the game just because you don't see it very often... that's showing complete denial about the existence of a metagame. You don't remove it "just because you don't see it" indeed, but inversely, you can't say a balance change is bad just because it has the side effect of killing a strategy that is almost never used. Sniping banelings is good, but how many people actually switch to ghosts to fight against banelings? If a weird phoenix strategy happened, and their damage against armored had to be nerfed, people would probably complain that it makes them even less useful against colossi. Technically true, but it doesn't really matter because only a tiny minority of players could successfully counter colossi with phoenixes. See what I mean? What the hell are you talking about? Do you play Protoss? Phoenix play has become a ultra strong build since Blink timing nerf and can for now hold off colossus builds and in some cases discourage colossus play altogether. If phoenix got a nerf vs. armored they would be completely useless vs. colossus and they would have trouble holding off roaches in stargate 6 gate expands that are now one of the most popular builds vs. nerfs. A nerf like that would completely change the metagame.
i don't think he's completely wrong about the phoenix play. MC lost pretty badly with that opening against genius in pvp.
|
On February 17 2012 05:02 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:13 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 03:51 shizna wrote:
big j how do you stand on the snipe nerf with regards to the 'fun' side of the game?
because you don't need to be a clairvoyant to see that terran are going to turtle even more and just drop drop drop. then build more planetary fortresses and then drop some more.... i hope you're looking forward to 50+ minute stalemate games.
the ghost at least gave terran a chance to attack. now no chance to attack, because you'll get crushed by ultralisk/broodlord infestor any time you move out... yay lets sit here all day. fun times.
it's exactly the same in TvP right now.... the player who wins is the player who doesn't die of boredom.
it's a boring, broken.... anti-spectator game. i dont think so. Terrans and zerg both have the range to slowly gain ground (9range viking, 13range tank, 9range infestor, 9.5range broodlord). terrans have nukes to gain ground. both can spam vikings and corruptors and try to bruteforce win the airbattle. and there is a ton of experimental stuff that we might have seen once or twice, that could be great in such situations like IT pushes, autoturret/pdd pushes, crawler pushes, yamato pushes. and Ultras are really not supplyefficient (unlike banelings); they have their strenghts, but fighting a maxed terran is not one of them. why push? pushing will mean you're at a disadvantage... so why push? a smart player will turtle and wait for opponent to get bored and attack into them. ergo two smart players = boring stalemate with no transitions, no counters, no variation. at least infestor/broodlord in ZvP gives a one-sided dynamic to late game. protoss therefore have an objective to get a solid advantage before the zerg tier3. both PvT and ZvT (after snipe nerf) are terrible unwinnable turtle-fests unless one player makes a collossal error... neither player has an incentive to attack versus turtle style because it's not effective.
I agree with this completely.
As a terran, unless I attack my opponent, they will NEVER attack me. It just becomes boring and lame, because I know I am at a huge disadvantage by attacking, but I don't feel like playing 50 minute games everytime.
|
Really great patch. Especially the mules and APM modifications!
We'll have to see how the snipe change affects the TvZ match up, but I agree that it was completely ridiculous to see ultralisks falling to snipe so easily.
|
On February 17 2012 05:33 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:33 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:12 shizna wrote:
you don't effectively remove something from the game just because you don't see it very often... that's showing complete denial about the existence of a metagame. You don't remove it "just because you don't see it" indeed, but inversely, you can't say a balance change is bad just because it has the side effect of killing a strategy that is almost never used. Sniping banelings is good, but how many people actually switch to ghosts to fight against banelings? If a weird phoenix strategy happened, and their damage against armored had to be nerfed, people would probably complain that it makes them even less useful against colossi. Technically true, but it doesn't really matter because only a tiny minority of players could successfully counter colossi with phoenixes. See what I mean? What the hell are you talking about? Do you play Protoss? Phoenix play has become a ultra strong build since Blink timing nerf and can for now hold off colossus builds and in some cases discourage colossus play altogether. If phoenix got a nerf vs. armored they would be completely useless vs. colossus and they would have trouble holding off roaches in stargate 6 gate expands that are now one of the most popular builds vs. nerfs. A nerf like that would completely change the metagame.
Phoenix dont have a bonus vs armoured/colossus anyway. Phoenix do double damage to light. Phoenix are already quite bad vs colossus, but can counter 1 base colossus play since if all the gas is in colossus tech then there wont be enough stalkers (and zealots are light!). Have you ever seen someone stay on phoenix against 2 base colossus? I haven't.
|
On a separate train of thought from the general phoenix are bad/good discussion, I've been wondering about long-term effects of the phoenix upgrade.
It seems to me that this upgrade will make the tempest completely redundant in HOTS. Both the upgrade and the tempest will need the fleet bacon and the necessary infrastructure, and both are pretty much an answer to muta for toss. Honestly I can't understand why given the option of the tempest or the phoenix anyone would choose the tempest, which is supposed to be slow and have a really bad single fire ground attack right?
I can't figure out if this was over looked by some dude at Blizzard or if they're actually phasing out the tempest idea given community response to it.
|
LOL, i think this is what, the 14th time in a row terran has in some way been nerfed? I remember calling both things out a while back, as they were the only things that were strong for terran (siege tanks in SC1, then siege tanks in SC2, you'd think the SC2 tank was a toy car or something, 50 damage my ass). Hellions got nerfed into little shitballs too, watching SC1 LOL, I cringe whenever I think how vocal SC2 players would bitch at mine imbalance.
It's all good though I suppose. I counted a strech in HD and Husky's channels in which Terran did not win four months, but that seemed OK. I guess now terran will be more interesting to watch - will you choose the total shit that is siege tank, the total assshit that is hellions, the pathetically slow and hilariously failfail shit that is thor, or the newly nerfed-into-little-shitpile that are ghosts? And people wonder why terrans are dissappearing from ladder, derpderpderp, yathink?
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On February 18 2012 14:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:
LOL, i think this is what, the 14th time in a row terran has in some way been nerfed? I remember calling both things out a while back, as they were the only things that were strong for terran (siege tanks in SC1, then siege tanks in SC2, you'd think the SC2 tank was a toy car or something, 50 damage my ass). Hellions got nerfed into little shitballs too, watching SC1 LOL, I cringe whenever I think how vocal SC2 players would bitch at mine imbalance.
It's all good though I suppose. I counted a strech in HD and Husky's channels in which Terran did not win four months, but that seemed OK. I guess now terran will be more interesting to watch - will you choose the total shit that is siege tank, the total assshit that is hellions, the pathetically slow and hilariously failfail shit that is thor, or the newly nerfed-into-little-shitpile that are ghosts? And people wonder why terrans are dissappearing from ladder, derpderpderp, yathink?
BUT GSL IS ALL THAT MATTERS!!!
no seriously i hate this patch. Terran only becomes harder every patch for casuals and the code s players dont care anyway because they rape the shit out of zerg and toss way before late game. This game is balanced around terran having godlike micro. Thats just stupid.
|
On February 18 2012 14:42 c0se wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 14:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:
LOL, i think this is what, the 14th time in a row terran has in some way been nerfed? I remember calling both things out a while back, as they were the only things that were strong for terran (siege tanks in SC1, then siege tanks in SC2, you'd think the SC2 tank was a toy car or something, 50 damage my ass). Hellions got nerfed into little shitballs too, watching SC1 LOL, I cringe whenever I think how vocal SC2 players would bitch at mine imbalance.
It's all good though I suppose. I counted a strech in HD and Husky's channels in which Terran did not win four months, but that seemed OK. I guess now terran will be more interesting to watch - will you choose the total shit that is siege tank, the total assshit that is hellions, the pathetically slow and hilariously failfail shit that is thor, or the newly nerfed-into-little-shitpile that are ghosts? And people wonder why terrans are dissappearing from ladder, derpderpderp, yathink? BUT GSL IS ALL THAT MATTERS!!! no seriously i hate this patch. Terran only becomes harder every patch for casuals and the code s players dont care anyway because they rape the shit out of zerg and toss way before late game. This game is balanced around terran having godlike micro. Thats just stupid.
Another terran here that agrees. Ghosts weren't even a big deal to begin with, TvZ in korea was like 51-49%, but blizzard felt the need to nerf terran again. Are they trying to make terran extinct on the ladder or something?
|
Even though I like the changes I think that this patch is being deployed at a terrible time. How in earth can you claim to support e-sports and at the same time patch the game in the week before two major tournaments (both MLG and Assembly).
As to Terran: they have been nerfed into the ground but don't claim for a second that they weren't damn overpowered. Remember 5Rax Reaper? Remember the absolutely unplayable 1/1/1 just when PuMa got hyped up? Remember that they have had the highest win rate for the last year?
Now I will admit that Terran has a design problem which means that the difference between a good and a bad player is just insane. If you're terrible then 1 slow-zealot will kill 2 of your marines, if you're good though you can kill 100 slow zealots with 1 marine. (that will take some time though :p)
|
On February 18 2012 14:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:
LOL, i think this is what, the 14th time in a row terran has in some way been nerfed? I remember calling both things out a while back, as they were the only things that were strong for terran (siege tanks in SC1, then siege tanks in SC2, you'd think the SC2 tank was a toy car or something, 50 damage my ass). Hellions got nerfed into little shitballs too, watching SC1 LOL, I cringe whenever I think how vocal SC2 players would bitch at mine imbalance.
It's all good though I suppose. I counted a strech in HD and Husky's channels in which Terran did not win four months, but that seemed OK. I guess now terran will be more interesting to watch - will you choose the total shit that is siege tank, the total assshit that is hellions, the pathetically slow and hilariously failfail shit that is thor, or the newly nerfed-into-little-shitpile that are ghosts? And people wonder why terrans are dissappearing from ladder, derpderpderp, yathink?
This must be a troll post..right?
Tanks in sc1 compared to sc2:
Units stack in a whole other way in sc2...
"Hellions got nerfed into little shitballs too" yeah, man, they only make lings unusable vs mech, and if controlled properly 6 hellions can deny lings until there are 50+ of them
they kill drones and probes so fast it's not even funny, and they're speed is just insane, especially for a _splash_ unit
and they dont cost gas (!)
"failfail shit that is thor"
try building more than one of them.
"nerfed into little shitpile that are ghosts"
Nukes.
cloak
EMP
energy upgrade
has a normal attack that is actually really damn good
lots of hp, no 'weakness' like being armored or light.
they're not very slow either
snipe will still be able to counter broodlords and infestors, it will just leave the ghosts with alot less energy.
"I cringe whenever I think how vocal SC2 players would bitch at mine imbalance."
They would only do that because sc2 isn't sc1, and shit wouldn't be the same because units stack really fast, and really easily in sc2, and they do it automaticly..
I havent played broodwar in ages, and i never played it very serious
But a mine in broodwar that takes out 12 lings(I dont remember how big the splash was) is awesome!
but a car that cost no gas, can be produced 2 at a time from a factory, are only matched in speed by speedlings, that does splash damage that does bonus damage to light units, meaning workers and all 'tier 1' units from all races, that can also be picked up by mediacs, and repaired by workers(inside the medivacs too btw), is not something you can really compare it with.
But if you want to, fine, just realise how silly medivacs are compared to medics in sc1
or the fact that nukes no longer cost supply....?
Let's make vultures in sc1 do splash damage, cost 100 gas less, and be able to be produced 2 at a time really fast.
dont forget the blueflame upgrade for them too.
they're so damn weak, so it wouldn't really matter right?
Kid, this may be the 15th time the terran race has been nerfed, and so far 14 of them are yet to make terran go under 50% winrate. i doubt this will be any different.
|
On February 18 2012 14:49 Wroshe wrote:Even though I like the changes I think that this patch is being deployed at a terrible time. How in earth can you claim to support e-sports and at the same time patch the game in the week before two major tournaments (both MLG and Assembly). As to Terran: they have been nerfed into the ground but don't claim for a second that they weren't damn overpowered. Remember 5Rax Reaper? Remember the absolutely unplayable 1/1/1 just when PuMa got hyped up? Remember that they have had the highest win rate for the last year? Now I will admit that Terran has a design problem which means that the difference between a good and a bad player is just insane. If you're terrible then 1 slow-zealot will kill 2 of your marines, if you're good though you can kill 100 slow zealots with 1 marine. (that will take some time though :p)
That's not actually possible, zealots and marines have same running speed so if you stutter the zealot gets hits off. Unless you're talking about marines with stim, then idk.
|
On February 17 2012 05:02 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:13 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 03:51 shizna wrote:
big j how do you stand on the snipe nerf with regards to the 'fun' side of the game?
because you don't need to be a clairvoyant to see that terran are going to turtle even more and just drop drop drop. then build more planetary fortresses and then drop some more.... i hope you're looking forward to 50+ minute stalemate games.
the ghost at least gave terran a chance to attack. now no chance to attack, because you'll get crushed by ultralisk/broodlord infestor any time you move out... yay lets sit here all day. fun times.
it's exactly the same in TvP right now.... the player who wins is the player who doesn't die of boredom.
it's a boring, broken.... anti-spectator game. i dont think so. Terrans and zerg both have the range to slowly gain ground (9range viking, 13range tank, 9range infestor, 9.5range broodlord). terrans have nukes to gain ground. both can spam vikings and corruptors and try to bruteforce win the airbattle. and there is a ton of experimental stuff that we might have seen once or twice, that could be great in such situations like IT pushes, autoturret/pdd pushes, crawler pushes, yamato pushes. and Ultras are really not supplyefficient (unlike banelings); they have their strenghts, but fighting a maxed terran is not one of them. why push? pushing will mean you're at a disadvantage... so why push? a smart player will turtle and wait for opponent to get bored and attack into them. ergo two smart players = boring stalemate with no transitions, no counters, no variation. at least infestor/broodlord in ZvP gives a one-sided dynamic to late game. protoss therefore have an objective to get a solid advantage before the zerg tier3. both PvT and ZvT (after snipe nerf) are terrible unwinnable turtle-fests unless one player makes a collossal error... neither player has an incentive to attack versus turtle style because it's not effective.
not really the toss has multiple options to deal with the zerg deathball, the problem is this far into the lategame is pretty much unexplored and untrained. But in general the protoss deathball is way more mobile and can be at 2 places at the same time full force. The broods and spines can cover 2 bases at most, the other bases can be just taken out by toss air. If the zerg starts to conter you can stall them with a vortex and can do extreme damage to their structures. As long as the zerg is on mining bases there is no worry for the toss that they will get outmacroed as they have unit combinations that are super resource efficient (gas and minerals can both be spend really well against the zerg deathball that relies on gas).
So its impossible for the zerg to turtle all the time, he will just be picked apart and contained on 1 or 2 bases. But this is true for all races, turtling works over a short amount of time, but the investments that are needed to pick turtles apart are in general cheaper and do more damage as you invest into.
The pvt dynamic is based on the aoe damage both races have, attackers in general are more closer together so the defenders in the advantage with aoes and against aoes. Luckily sc2 allows you to move in formation not forcing you to attack move (which clumps your units), while taking way more effort to do so, the effectiveness of the aoes is on the same level for the attacker in that case. (interestingly most prefer to use the attack move, even if they face an army consisting mostly out of aoe)
ZvT well when both armies rely on siege weapons where you slowly gain a positional advantage and the siege weapons have a strange interaction making it impossible at one point to advance if the opponent is into position. The zerg is at a small advantage in that case, but they fight against the clock, as the terran can tech up making their army way more effective but harder to control. Also nukes allow you to push the zerg away half a screen.
But since the zerg has static defense that is mobile and doesn't cost supply, they are able to split a portion of their army and pass by the opponents defense position and do damage, and the zerg has the ability to return their units to the main army pretty quickly, so the terran can't send to much to defend zerg attacks.
All in all blizzard made sure that you can't turtle in sc2, you can do for a short amount of time, but the opponent has multiple ways to punish you for it.
sorry for the offtopic, just saw a lategame pvz where the toss had won 25 minutes ago but decided to throw away army and don't transition into the zerg deathball conter and forgot about the recall ability of the mothership. At the end he won the game because he remembered the ms has recall. The zerg also had forgotten about recall though and thought: "yay just the mothership there and the army cut in half, attack !" (even the caster was waiting for a second vortex, not noticing that suddenly 20 stalkers appeared under the ms, even though the effect is easy to see as its unique and takes alot of time.)
Well if you have 40 supply vortexed and fight againt the full toss force without your spines, its clear who will win. (could have atleast taken all ovis for creep spread and attack burrow with spines ...)
|
can't believe this patch is actually going through, thought it would be changed or modified in some way. As of right now it just feels like a troll, and the fact that blizzard was "confident" about the ghost nerf just makes me wonder how much they even know about the game. This patch has to come with some sort of a buff to ravens, or something else... just so bad
|
I am still astounded by how nonchalantly they are cutting the Ghost's potential. Narrowing Snipe down to psionic units will make it so laser-focused that finding any other function for it will impossible. Another hard-counter mechanic, basically. ;\
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
