|
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 16 2012 22:06 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:03 TYLERvsBEER wrote:On February 16 2012 21:37 KingAce wrote:
Man after reading a good amount of these posts I would think Terran was somehow struggling. The whole ghosts are a swissarmy knife unit that can do anything and everything was getting kinda absurd. Terran has tanks and marauders for ultralisks, ravens and vikings for broodlords. And despite the nerf on snipe the ghosts is still perfectly viable against lords and ultralisks. I don't see what the complains are about honestly, at least not when considering the GSL results. Really? Ravens counter BLs? How exactly? Raven Viking counters Broodlord Corruptor with PDD/HSM; Ravens prevent the first 1/2/3 volleys of Corruptors allowing the Vikings to shred them. Add Ghost vs Infestor and you have a RavenVikingGhost composition that, with good micro, beats Corruptor/Broodlord/Infestor.
The Problem i have with this is the Zerg in that composition has 1 Units that requires decent babysitting the Infestor. While all 3 Terran units do . Split my Vikings against possible fungal / EMP or Snipe the Infestors and and look to cast PDD in a good position. ( While also possibly FF'ing tanks )
|
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition...
|
On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition...
you don't really have to do that if you manage to keep your infestors in position b/c the range of fungal is greater than the one of Seeker missile. It just doesn't give the nice dynamic of snipe/feedback/EMP from ht <-> ghosts. Maybe a range change could fix that. or maybe HSM would be broken. i don't know.
|
On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
Even though they should just flat out remove gold bases, the change could work.
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches.
My thoughts exactly. We will ahve to see how that pans out.
|
On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition...
dont say such things...
banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own...
how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say?
|
On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic?
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler.
On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say?
That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations.
|
On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations.
a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word.
|
On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment.
Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue.
|
On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word.
I don't think you don't need to control your units you just have more units that require less control to be somewhat effective. Every Units that doesn't have a ability to use/target is easier to uset then one without it.
|
On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word.
Would shitty satire based on gameplay aspects that everyone have to do be sufficient instead? Strawman works fine as a word for what you're attempting, and the sad thing is that you were even wrong with half of your examples. Zerglings do autosurround, and making sure your corruptors are not hovering over marines is not a micro challenge. Half of your points were on the same difficulty level as pressing stim as terran.
On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue.
Nerfing snipe is bad not because 45 damage snipes might solve a balance point, because that'd imply that the game right now is as good as it will always get, and that it should be balanced around this point. By implying that BL/Infestor/corrupt = marine/viking/tank/ghost and that's the endgame of these matchups, and since currently ghosts deal to well with the zerg endgame it needs to be nerfed, because there is nothing else zergs can do after that. Nerfing snipe is bad because it limits new types of strategies from ever being allowed to evolve, and it's the same reason removing carriers and the mothership in hots is a bad idea. You might say that snipe isn't being removed, but the practical application is the same. Snipe like this will only be used against psionics, limiting the unit and spells.
|
On February 16 2012 21:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 21:32 Telenil wrote:The terrans who didn't like the BFH nerf were against it because they preferred mech TvT over biomech. It had nothing to do with them not realizing that it was overpowered. It's not about being reactionary or self absorbed. Obviously not, but the reactions we had when BF was nerfed are pretty similar to those we see now. "Yes it was a bit OP but this nerfing is too much, reducing the power by 50% for the same cost? No one will use it now!" While blue flame hellions are indeed less common than they were, that didn't kill the unit. he said that the ghostnerf is too much but some nerf is needed. i said that the ghostnerf is too much but some nerf is needed. Darkplasmaball, roblin and a bunch of others have said that sone nerf is needed but the proposal is too much. still all of us have gotten a ton if shit for it.
Simply because if given the choice ONLY between the current state and blizzards nerf, many would pick the current state while you and some others imply that you rather have the nerfed state.
|
On February 17 2012 01:20 wunsun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? There is the odd ghost rush in TvT. Snipes are useful in TvP after emping their army, However, I am thinking that we are thinking of the now too much. The metgagame will chance and evolve. By putting the 50 (-25) instead of the 25 (+25), it leaves more doors open. If the problem is the Zerg lategame, then I don't see why zergs have a problem with this.
to bad Blizzard is against negative numbers ... otherwise the tank wouldn't be horrible against the no light/armor units(archon/queen/baneling) units as well, just because they wanted the marine to survive tank shots better.
Some things don't really have to be kept simple.
I really thought they wanted the ghost to have 1 spell against zerg/toss. I mean the ht conters all terran units as well. Since most high tech units have energy, they will start the fight heavily damaged and with storms they will be so weakened that archons can deal with them, and the other units die to storms. And not every unit can drain their own energy ... and emping your own units can't be the solution imo. But i guess the difference is that snipe doesn't have the random effect of storm, where the opponent could dodge.
And the infestor as well, fungal vs weak units, neural vs strong ones (neural being the hardest to pull off, due to being targetable, but also having the highest gain by far).
So now the ghost can only kill 2/3 zerg casters with one spell and drain the energy of all of them and otherwise will just be a super expensive allround tank, that does as well against light units as the hellion, with the advantage of being able to kill buildings with a nuke.
I was already in the mind set that casters conter everything until they run out of energy. But maybe they sneak in a ninja buff to the ghost, which removes animation delay once a ghost that already sniped, so they can do it instantly again and are able to kill zerg units before the transfuse hits. Since transfuse only works on damaged units its quiet easy to spam it and more effective the faster your opponent snipes. And having 10 ghosts in the range of a broodlord to one shot them is really complicated, when ghosts are outranged by fungal. And what already works against 45 damage snipes should work against 25 damage snipes too.
Nontheless 2 shoting infestors for sure, is a huge buff in that direction though. So no complain here, just a puzzled look about their reasoning.
But while the raven mostly useless before, after the neural and fungal nerfs, they gained some usability in tvz, being able to protect vikings against corrupters (and able to seeker them even while fungaled), they are somewhat useful, but only with their 125 energy spell, that will punish zergs for clumping, and when the opponent is unclumped, vikings do really got and don't have to fear fungal.
The only danger is the fungal + neural combo, outranging the raven by 1. (which is no problem if it can't move) Still raven clouds are pretty effective versus zerg, but getting the cloud + research is a ton of gas, that usually flows into medivacs and tanks and upgrades (usual getting infantry vehicle and air upgrades versus zerg to some extend)
|
On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue.
Can the game engine do 50, -25 to massive? It might not be possible. Or blizzard might not philosophically like that principle.
|
United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 03:06 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue. Can the game engine do 50, -25 to massive? It might not be possible. Or blizzard might not philosophically like that principle.
People have managed to do that simply with the map editor.
|
On February 17 2012 02:45 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word. Would shitty satire based on gameplay aspects that everyone have to do be sufficient instead? Strawman works fine as a word for what you're attempting, and the sad thing is that you were even wrong with half of your examples. Zerglings do autosurround, and making sure your corruptors are not hovering over marines is not a micro challenge. Half of your points were on the same difficulty level as pressing stim as terran. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue. Nerfing snipe is bad not because 45 damage snipes might solve a balance point, because that'd imply that the game right now is as good as it will always get, and that it should be balanced around this point. By implying that BL/Infestor/corrupt = marine/viking/tank/ghost and that's the endgame of these matchups, and since currently ghosts deal to well with the zerg endgame it needs to be nerfed, because there is nothing else zergs can do after that. Nerfing snipe is bad because it limits new types of strategies from ever being allowed to evolve, and it's the same reason removing carriers and the mothership in hots is a bad idea. You might say that snipe isn't being removed, but the practical application is the same. Snipe like this will only be used against psionics, limiting the unit and spells.
you know, what you are doing now is an actual strawman. instead of being on the topic of my posts (Terrans saying zerg is easy), you try to open a discussion to which degree the things I was talking about can be called control.
but to make you happy:
yes, zerglings autosurround and speeding this up by constant pre-and respreading/targeting like we see from good zerg players before/during battles is completly useless.
just like it is supereasy to find good spots to engage with corruptors against 9range vikings, snipes, thors and stimming marines. god, how i love a-click
|
On February 17 2012 02:57 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 21:43 Big J wrote:On February 16 2012 21:32 Telenil wrote:The terrans who didn't like the BFH nerf were against it because they preferred mech TvT over biomech. It had nothing to do with them not realizing that it was overpowered. It's not about being reactionary or self absorbed. Obviously not, but the reactions we had when BF was nerfed are pretty similar to those we see now. "Yes it was a bit OP but this nerfing is too much, reducing the power by 50% for the same cost? No one will use it now!" While blue flame hellions are indeed less common than they were, that didn't kill the unit. he said that the ghostnerf is too much but some nerf is needed. i said that the ghostnerf is too much but some nerf is needed. Darkplasmaball, roblin and a bunch of others have said that sone nerf is needed but the proposal is too much. still all of us have gotten a ton if shit for it. Simply because if given the choice ONLY between the current state and blizzards nerf, many would pick the current state while you and some others imply that you rather have the nerfed state.
but we are in neither situation, arent we? we can't choose, we can only voice our opinion and hope that blizzard makes the right choice. (something like 30-40dmg on average against broods and ultras, 45-55 against small bio and casters; or just make ghosts light so I can roll in with banes costefficiently... i mean that might even be the easiest sollution, as manual explosions can even deal with the cloak)
|
On February 17 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:45 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word. Would shitty satire based on gameplay aspects that everyone have to do be sufficient instead? Strawman works fine as a word for what you're attempting, and the sad thing is that you were even wrong with half of your examples. Zerglings do autosurround, and making sure your corruptors are not hovering over marines is not a micro challenge. Half of your points were on the same difficulty level as pressing stim as terran. On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue. Nerfing snipe is bad not because 45 damage snipes might solve a balance point, because that'd imply that the game right now is as good as it will always get, and that it should be balanced around this point. By implying that BL/Infestor/corrupt = marine/viking/tank/ghost and that's the endgame of these matchups, and since currently ghosts deal to well with the zerg endgame it needs to be nerfed, because there is nothing else zergs can do after that. Nerfing snipe is bad because it limits new types of strategies from ever being allowed to evolve, and it's the same reason removing carriers and the mothership in hots is a bad idea. You might say that snipe isn't being removed, but the practical application is the same. Snipe like this will only be used against psionics, limiting the unit and spells. you know, what you are doing now is an actual strawman. instead of being on the topic of my posts (Terrans saying zerg is easy), you try to open a discussion to which degree the things I was talking about can be called control. but to make you happy: yes, zerglings autosurround and speeding this up by constant pre-and respreading/targeting like we see from good zerg players before/during battles is completly useless. just like it is supereasy to find good spots to engage with corruptors against 9range vikings, snipes, thors and stimming marines. god, how i love a-click
God damn anytime I hear somebody say terran is a-click/a-move it makes my blood fucking boil.
Just try to a-move a lategame terran army against a lategame zerg or protoss army. Then maybe you'll learn to shut the fuck up.
To stay on topic somewhat, I was hoping somebody could give me a clear explanation to something. People say, oh, just use more vikings in your unit composition. Yeah thats fine, but in a situation where they remax on ultras, or ultras are involved in any way, you are required to build marauders to deal with them. Thats fine too.
My question is this: I'm not an overly well-versed person on this subject, so I sincerely don't know if this is true or not. But would building vikings, then building marauders, and then building whatever else you need after that to deal with whatever zerg brings at you, kind of water down your supply? Like, wouldn't you potentially be spread too thin with units that aren't ideal against whatever composition is coming at you?
Again, I sincerely don't know these things. So I'm asking if it really is spreading yourself too thin, or if its completely viable. Thanks in advance!
|
big j how do you stand on the snipe nerf with regards to the 'fun' side of the game?
because you don't need to be a clairvoyant to see that terran are going to turtle even more and just drop drop drop. then build more planetary fortresses and then drop some more.... i hope you're looking forward to 50+ minute stalemate games.
the ghost at least gave terran a chance to attack. now no chance to attack, because you'll get crushed by ultralisk/broodlord infestor any time you move out... yay lets sit here all day. fun times.
it's exactly the same in TvP right now.... the player who wins is the player who doesn't die of boredom.
it's a boring, broken.... anti-spectator game.
|
United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 03:39 Naeroon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:45 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 02:37 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic? The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. On February 17 2012 01:53 Big J wrote:On February 17 2012 01:37 PandaMonk wrote:
@s3rp if, as a zerg you face ravenviking ghost we ALSO have to babysit 3 untis, we have to split our corrupters,BLS, and infestors to avoid the emp/HSM (HSM RAPES clumped up BL's), we also have to cast corruption, bl kite and cast infestor spells, it seems like a pretty even trade (in terms of micro). Just feel like ghostviking ghost is really off the natural tech path, so a more awkward transition... dont say such things... banelings split themselves and target marines, zerglings autosurround, corruptors avoid marine groups on their own, ITs are spammed without any clicks, support units swarm in on their own, flanks are always pre set up, infestors burrow on their own when their fungal job is done, zerg units targetfire always, broodlord AI makes them retreat without commands if they face air superiority, runbys are random occurences that have nothing to do with poking and scouting, magic box is a passive ability and mutalisks are programed to find weak spots on their own... how can you even say that a zerg unit needs to be controlled. havent you heard what those who dont play zerg say? That's probably the worst bleeding heart strawman I've ever seen. Congratulations. a strawman is meant to be an argument... making a post that makes fun of some Terrans who think zerg doesnt need control and is easy is not, just a little fun (read through the last hundred pages if you don't believe that some Terrans state this). check your dictionary first, next time you post such a word. Would shitty satire based on gameplay aspects that everyone have to do be sufficient instead? Strawman works fine as a word for what you're attempting, and the sad thing is that you were even wrong with half of your examples. Zerglings do autosurround, and making sure your corruptors are not hovering over marines is not a micro challenge. Half of your points were on the same difficulty level as pressing stim as terran. On February 17 2012 02:37 Telenil wrote:On February 17 2012 02:19 Dalavita wrote:
The current metagame doesn't house hydras or ghosts sniping marauders. By killing off snipe you ensure that it'll never open up the possbility for that to happen, and thus, the game gets that much staler. That sounds overly speculative, no offense intended. We're saying that nerfing snipe is bad because there may be a day where the 45 damage might solve a yet unknown balance point, which could only appear after a set of events that nobody can imagine at the moment. Not that I can think of any problem with "50 (-25 to massive)", but it doesn't sound like the future on the game rests on this issue. Nerfing snipe is bad not because 45 damage snipes might solve a balance point, because that'd imply that the game right now is as good as it will always get, and that it should be balanced around this point. By implying that BL/Infestor/corrupt = marine/viking/tank/ghost and that's the endgame of these matchups, and since currently ghosts deal to well with the zerg endgame it needs to be nerfed, because there is nothing else zergs can do after that. Nerfing snipe is bad because it limits new types of strategies from ever being allowed to evolve, and it's the same reason removing carriers and the mothership in hots is a bad idea. You might say that snipe isn't being removed, but the practical application is the same. Snipe like this will only be used against psionics, limiting the unit and spells. you know, what you are doing now is an actual strawman. instead of being on the topic of my posts (Terrans saying zerg is easy), you try to open a discussion to which degree the things I was talking about can be called control. but to make you happy: yes, zerglings autosurround and speeding this up by constant pre-and respreading/targeting like we see from good zerg players before/during battles is completly useless. just like it is supereasy to find good spots to engage with corruptors against 9range vikings, snipes, thors and stimming marines. god, how i love a-click God damn anytime I hear somebody say terran is a-click/a-move it makes my blood fucking boil. Just try to a-move a lategame terran army against a lategame zerg or protoss army. Then maybe you'll learn to shut the fuck up.
I don't think he's actually claiming that in this case; I think he's saying that people who say lategame zerg is a-click are wrong.
|
On February 17 2012 03:51 shizna wrote:
big j how do you stand on the snipe nerf with regards to the 'fun' side of the game?
because you don't need to be a clairvoyant to see that terran are going to turtle even more and just drop drop drop. then build more planetary fortresses and then drop some more.... i hope you're looking forward to 50+ minute stalemate games.
the ghost at least gave terran a chance to attack. now no chance to attack, because you'll get crushed by ultralisk/broodlord infestor any time you move out... yay lets sit here all day. fun times.
it's exactly the same in TvP right now.... the player who wins is the player who doesn't die of boredom.
it's a boring, broken.... anti-spectator game.
i dont think so. Terrans and zerg both have the range to slowly gain ground (9range viking, 13range tank, 9range infestor, 9.5range broodlord). terrans have nukes to gain ground.
both can spam vikings and corruptors and try to bruteforce win the airbattle.
and there is a ton of experimental stuff that we might have seen once or twice, that could be great in such situations like IT pushes, autoturret/pdd pushes, crawler pushes, yamato pushes.
and Ultras are really not supplyefficient (unlike banelings); they have their strenghts, but fighting a maxed terran is not one of them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
