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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 16 2012 21:32 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +The terrans who didn't like the BFH nerf were against it because they preferred mech TvT over biomech. It had nothing to do with them not realizing that it was overpowered. It's not about being reactionary or self absorbed. Obviously not, but the reactions we had when BF was nerfed are pretty similar to those we see now. "Yes it was a bit OP but this nerfing is too much, reducing the power by 50% for the same cost? No one will use it now!" While blue flame hellions are indeed less common than they were, that didn't kill the unit.
In the case of ghosts in tvz. It will pretty much kill the "unit", or rather, snipe. They'll still be used for EMP and exclusively against spellcasters, thus screwing over any variance in gameplay, which is what makes sc2 stale to begin with. Units being forced into the counter situations.
On February 16 2012 21:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 21:32 Telenil wrote:The terrans who didn't like the BFH nerf were against it because they preferred mech TvT over biomech. It had nothing to do with them not realizing that it was overpowered. It's not about being reactionary or self absorbed. Obviously not, but the reactions we had when BF was nerfed are pretty similar to those we see now. "Yes it was a bit OP but this nerfing is too much, reducing the power by 50% for the same cost? No one will use it now!" While blue flame hellions are indeed less common than they were, that didn't kill the unit. he said that the ghostnerf is too much but some nerf is needed. i said that the ghostnerf is too much but some nerf is needed. Darkplasmaball, roblin and a bunch of others have said that sone nerf is needed but the proposal is too much. still all of us have gotten a ton if shit for it.
In the case of darkplasmaball, he got shit because of other things, and I haven't really read your walls, but I assume the same applies.
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avoiding the tier3 situation, ghosts could snipe marines, marauders, reapers, scv's, zealots, drones, banelings, mutalisks, hydralisks, corruptors, overseers etc... but if the change goes ahead then sniping these units will be worthless. therefore it removes a massive chunk of versatility from a 200/100 unit. True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice.
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On February 16 2012 21:37 KingAce wrote:
Man after reading a good amount of these posts I would think Terran was somehow struggling. The whole ghosts are a swissarmy knife unit that can do anything and everything was getting kinda absurd. Terran has tanks and marauders for ultralisks, ravens and vikings for broodlords. And despite the nerf on snipe the ghosts is still perfectly viable against lords and ultralisks. I don't see what the complains are about honestly, at least not when considering the GSL results.
Really? Ravens counter BLs? How exactly?
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On February 16 2012 21:54 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 21:32 Telenil wrote:The terrans who didn't like the BFH nerf were against it because they preferred mech TvT over biomech. It had nothing to do with them not realizing that it was overpowered. It's not about being reactionary or self absorbed. Obviously not, but the reactions we had when BF was nerfed are pretty similar to those we see now. "Yes it was a bit OP but this nerfing is too much, reducing the power by 50% for the same cost? No one will use it now!" While blue flame hellions are indeed less common than they were, that didn't kill the unit. In the case of ghosts in tvz. It will pretty much kill the "unit", or rather, snipe. They'll still be used for EMP and exclusively against spellcasters, thus screwing over any variance in gameplay, which is what makes sc2 stale to begin with. Units being forced into the counter situations.
exactly.
emp is great against protoss, snipe is great against zerg and a fun gimmick against terran.
nerf snipe.... i predict that terran will skip ghost altogether in tvt and tvz (maybe a couple just to nuke).
against broodlord i'd rather get 4 vikings than 3 ghosts (same cost, faster production and no need for energy charge).
against ultralisks... do you get 1 ghost or 2 marauder? well 25 energy for 25 damage versus a sustained 40 dps... snipe would be pathetic unless you had >20 ghosts.
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On February 16 2012 22:03 TYLERvsBEER wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 21:37 KingAce wrote:
Man after reading a good amount of these posts I would think Terran was somehow struggling. The whole ghosts are a swissarmy knife unit that can do anything and everything was getting kinda absurd. Terran has tanks and marauders for ultralisks, ravens and vikings for broodlords. And despite the nerf on snipe the ghosts is still perfectly viable against lords and ultralisks. I don't see what the complains are about honestly, at least not when considering the GSL results. Really? Ravens counter BLs? How exactly?
Raven Viking counters Broodlord Corruptor with PDD/HSM; Ravens prevent the first 1/2/3 volleys of Corruptors allowing the Vikings to shred them. Add Ghost vs Infestor and you have a RavenVikingGhost composition that, with good micro, beats Corruptor/Broodlord/Infestor.
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In the case of ghosts in tvz. It will pretty much kill the "unit", or rather, snipe. They'll still be used for EMP and exclusively against spellcasters, thus screwing over any variance in gameplay, which is what makes sc2 stale to begin with. Units being forced into the counter situations. If I read David Kim's post correctly, the reasonning was that ghosts could continuously snipe brood lords and that energy never really was an issue. They nerfed it so that ghosts would be still abel to kill brood lords, but in greater number (or with more energy). They could have increased the cost or decrease the damage, they chose to decrease damage.
I'm a protoss player, so I may be completely wrong, but that's how I understood the situation report.
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On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +avoiding the tier3 situation, ghosts could snipe marines, marauders, reapers, scv's, zealots, drones, banelings, mutalisks, hydralisks, corruptors, overseers etc... but if the change goes ahead then sniping these units will be worthless. therefore it removes a massive chunk of versatility from a 200/100 unit. True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice.
come on, wake up... you don't effectively remove something from the game just because you don't see it very often... that's showing complete denial about the existence of a metagame.
ffs we hardly ever see raven, battlecruiser, carriers or nydus worm... heeeerp derp lets remove them from the game! noone will notice!
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On February 16 2012 17:17 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 17:11 fiveohfive wrote:On February 16 2012 16:56 Xacalite wrote:
after yesterdays games im 100% sure terran will get another nerf next patch or so where the auto-turret "life-time" will be reduced. As it is now it lives forever (not really a problem since no one uses ravens) and that does not reflect a 50 energy spell. everything else with the auto turret is completely fine.
Im not gonna comment on snipe because TheDraken already explained what I think of this thread and why. Whining sure is fun yes? Good think terrans dont have marines.
EDIT: wasnt Zerg the most played race since ever? Im not sure on that though... Thats a new one, decrease in auto turret time nerf next patch? Yesterday it was that nukes should cost supply...... I got my bids on nuke. Think about the pattern, it was emp to be nerfed first.... then snipe... next I think it will be nukes turn. After this, once they have nerfed all abilities from the ghost, then they will move onto the raven. You heard it here first lads! Yes and after that Marine damage to 2 per shot and Barracks buildtime to 300 seconds. Seriously, have some faith. Snipe change is in PTR and won't go through the way it is now; Terran will adapt (once again) and we'll see how stuff plays out from there. Have some optimism man, it's healthy!
No no no.
Marines will require tech labs and barracks will come after Planetary Fortress. 
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On February 16 2012 22:12 shizna wrote:
you don't effectively remove something from the game just because you don't see it very often... that's showing complete denial about the existence of a metagame.
You don't remove it "just because you don't see it" indeed, but inversely, you can't say a balance change is bad just because it has the side effect of killing a strategy that is almost never used. Sniping banelings is good, but how many people actually switch to ghosts to fight against banelings?
If a weird phoenix strategy happened, and their damage against armored had to be nerfed, people would probably complain that it makes them even less useful against colossi. Technically true, but it doesn't really matter because only a tiny minority of players could successfully counter colossi with phoenixes. See what I mean?
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On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +avoiding the tier3 situation, ghosts could snipe marines, marauders, reapers, scv's, zealots, drones, banelings, mutalisks, hydralisks, corruptors, overseers etc... but if the change goes ahead then sniping these units will be worthless. therefore it removes a massive chunk of versatility from a 200/100 unit. True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice.
About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts...
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Yess, Protoss has Still No Chance vs Terrans...
User was warned for this post
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Nice change overall.Ghosts were a bit overpower on their snipes against zerg T3 units and infestor.
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On February 16 2012 23:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Nice change overall.Ghosts were a bit overpower on their snipes against zerg T3 units and infestor.
Thank you for your contribution, it's really amazing and convincing.
But seriously why is snipe being made useless against everything? It's great to snipe a few
zealots once you've emped the protoss, or sniping banelings/mutas, this is just going to make the game so insaaaaanely stale and boring when it comes to strategies and lategame for tvz, ghosts were fun, going marauder/viking is boring, and the main problem is fungal growth. Fungal can destroy vikings and marauders, which is why ghosts were so damn viable for us, they didn't autolose as soon as they got fungal growth'd
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On February 16 2012 23:14 Confuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 23:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Nice change overall.Ghosts were a bit overpower on their snipes against zerg T3 units and infestor. Thank you for your contribution, it's really amazing and convincing. But seriously why is snipe being made useless against everything? It's great to snipe a few zealots once you've emped the protoss, or sniping banelings/mutas, this is just going to make the game so insaaaaanely stale and boring when it comes to strategies and lategame for tvz, ghosts were fun, going marauder/viking is boring, and the main problem is fungal growth. Fungal can destroy vikings and marauders, which is why ghosts were so damn viable for us, they didn't autolose as soon as they got fungal growth'd
The ghost is supposed to be an anti-spell unit not a counter to all Zerg T3 units.
The game is not going to get stale now. It'll become more interesting because army compositions will now greatly vary and not every TvZ lategame will be ghost centered.
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On February 16 2012 23:17 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 23:14 Confuzzled wrote:On February 16 2012 23:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Nice change overall.Ghosts were a bit overpower on their snipes against zerg T3 units and infestor. Thank you for your contribution, it's really amazing and convincing. But seriously why is snipe being made useless against everything? It's great to snipe a few zealots once you've emped the protoss, or sniping banelings/mutas, this is just going to make the game so insaaaaanely stale and boring when it comes to strategies and lategame for tvz, ghosts were fun, going marauder/viking is boring, and the main problem is fungal growth. Fungal can destroy vikings and marauders, which is why ghosts were so damn viable for us, they didn't autolose as soon as they got fungal growth'd The ghost is supposed to be an anti-spell unit not a counter to all Zerg T3 units. The game is not going to get stale now. It'll become more interesting because army compositions will now greatly vary and not every TvZ lategame will be ghost centered.
Well tbh I don't care what it's supposed to be. I just want to know what Terran is supposed to do against tech switches from BL / Infestor-> Ultra/ling/bling and back. Because I just don't know what is going to hatch out of these eggs. And I'm also not convinced that "energy was never a problem". In my games it has been one.
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On February 16 2012 17:49 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 17:24 Chicken Chaser wrote:
This. Why didn't the blizzard folk address this instead of 30+25 light? I guess we'll have to wait for PTR for some high level players to play a ton of late game TvZ... lol? Infestors are armored, so you would need 4 snipes to kill them instead of 3. With the bonus damage to psionic, it will be two now. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26The other blue post in the topic confirms that there will be no PTR.
dunno if this was already addressed, but snipe ignores armor. infestors take 3 snipes right now, 2 after the patch.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +avoiding the tier3 situation, ghosts could snipe marines, marauders, reapers, scv's, zealots, drones, banelings, mutalisks, hydralisks, corruptors, overseers etc... but if the change goes ahead then sniping these units will be worthless. therefore it removes a massive chunk of versatility from a 200/100 unit. True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice.
I've definitely seen marines be sniped a reasonable amount thanks to ghost openers. I'm not really a huge fan of the opener, but it is a thing that currently exists.
(also I suspect the main reason you never see hydralisks sniped is who builds hydralisks in ZvT?)
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On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +avoiding the tier3 situation, ghosts could snipe marines, marauders, reapers, scv's, zealots, drones, banelings, mutalisks, hydralisks, corruptors, overseers etc... but if the change goes ahead then sniping these units will be worthless. therefore it removes a massive chunk of versatility from a 200/100 unit. True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice.
But if you did have Ghosts, then they had a use against many units. Getting some Ghosts was never really a bad option, especially after their cost was reduced to 200/100.
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)?
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On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned.
Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game.
On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ?
I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic?
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On February 17 2012 01:12 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 22:41 Torra wrote:On February 16 2012 22:02 Telenil wrote:
True, but how often did you really use Snipe on these? You snipe corruptors when you snipe brood lords and I've seen zealots being Sniped on pro streams. But marines, marauders, reapers (who still die in 2 snipes), hydralisks? Maybe once. You don't go ghosts because you see your opponent going marines or hydras. Ghosts never really were versatile units in practice. About as often as terran can get to mass ghosts... Yup, and in TvT, that's never. So the amount of snipes it takes to kill a marauder shouldn't matter as far as balance is concerned. Even in TvZ, you usally get lots of ghosts only after the mutas have been cleared, and as Elyvilon points out, hydralisk are one of the least used units in the matchup. The "versatility" of Snipe is true on paper, not so much in a real game. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 00:43 K9GM3 wrote:
With this nerf to Snipe, the spell is going to be useful against one unit from each race: the High Templar, the Infestor and the Ghost itself. That's just not good design, especially if you consider that the problem lay solely with the Zerg's massive units – so why not just have it do 50 damage (-25 vs. Massive)? It doesn't sound absurd, although since this is similar to the planned nerf as far as brood lords and ultralisks are concerned, in what situation would it help? Fast ghosts rush in TvT? Baneling-sniping in TvZ? I don't play terran, so it is a genuine question. Is there any (serious) strategy that would significantly benefit from 50 -25 vs massive rather than 25 +25 vs psionic?
There is the odd ghost rush in TvT. Snipes are useful in TvP after emping their army, However, I am thinking that we are thinking of the now too much. The metgagame will chance and evolve. By putting the 50 (-25) instead of the 25 (+25), it leaves more doors open. If the problem is the Zerg lategame, then I don't see why zergs have a problem with this.
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EPT
