EPTPatch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 210
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay. Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On February 16 2012 14:05 IMoperator wrote: What would the point of ghosts be if they only did 25 damage vs. broods or ultras? They would be solely anti-infestor units, and I don't think it would be very useful. They were meant to be anti-caster unit. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44243 Posts
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On February 16 2012 14:10 FakeDeath wrote: They were meant to be anti-caster unit. Yes, but at least emp works against other protoss units. Ghosts are going to be completely useless TvZ (besides for infestors) if the current patch goes through | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 16 2012 14:10 FakeDeath wrote: They were meant to be anti-caster unit. I don't think they were ever meant to be solely anti-caster, at least Blizzard never explicitly stated so. Snipe was just extra damage on demand, usually used on casters because it was the most cost efficient target but still. Besides, making an unit solely anti-caster is kinda pidgeonholing the unit. Templars have feedback so they are technically anti-caster as well, but they can also storm and turn into archons. That's what a good spellcaster should be like, one with lots of different ways to use them, not just "here's a damage skill you use on casters and if that wasn't enough, here's an AOE to remove their energy first". Its just poor design. | ||
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Mellon
Sweden917 Posts
On February 16 2012 10:16 Trilandian wrote: Someone in the BNet forums suggested that snipe should do 45 damage (25 vs massive), I think this is the best solution. That would make Ht's get killed in 4 snipes, and Infestors aswell.. So making them stronger vs Broodlords and Ultras while making them weaker to everything else? Wouldn't make sense and would be bad for PvT.. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On February 16 2012 14:33 Mellon wrote: That would make Ht's get killed in 4 snipes, and Infestors aswell.. So making them stronger vs Broodlords and Ultras while making them weaker to everything else? Wouldn't make sense and would be bad for PvT.. huh? no no no he meant, 45 damage -15 vs Massive | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On February 16 2012 14:46 Blasterion wrote: huh? no no no he meant, 45 damage -15 vs Massive Yeah that sounds like a good idea (values can be set to deal less damage against certain units, I have tested it and it works). Another idea is it could do 25 + 25 against infestors and +25 to Light units. (The reason why I bring this up is that in the Blizzard post linked in the OP, they said they didn't want to change it to 25 + 25 to Light because Infestor is not a Light unit and that would nerf Snipe against Infestor. There is a solution, see spoiler tags below.) (Blizzard does know that you can set it to do extra damage against one specific unit right? All you need to do is make the ability based off a "Set", make a validator that detects if the unit being targetted is an Infestor or not, then set it to do extra damage towards that target.) Here's a quick example: + Show Spoiler + (Again the reason for this is that Infestors aren't "Light" units. High Templar and Ghost are light and Psionic. That means if they deal +25 to light and +25 to psionic, it will deal a total of 25 +50 to ghost and high templar and that's not what we want. We simply want 25 + 25 to light and 50 damage to infestors too.) You need one "Effect (Set)". Two "damage" effects. Also two "validators". Make one validator compare the unit and make it check if it is an Infestor (target unit) Make the other check if it's NOT an infestor (also target unit) Make the "set effect" have both damage effects. Set it as the default effect for the "Snipe" ability. Make Snipe Damage 1 have the validator to check if it's NOT an infestor. Make it deal 25 +25 light (for example). Make Snipe Damage 2 have the validator that checks if it is an infestor. Make it deal just 50 damage. What happens is when Snipe launches, it checks to see if the unit is an infestor or not. If it's an Infestor, it will use "Snipe Damage 2" and deal 50 damage. If it's not an infestor, it will use "Snipe Damage 1" and deal 25 +25 to light. There you go. Now you have Snipe that deals 25 +25 to light and simply 50 damage to infestors. The map editor is very customizable and you can make things do whatever you want it to do for the most part. Also I'm only stating the above because it seems the way they do things in the map editor is not efficient >.>. For example when PDD was changed from a unit to a structure, they wanted feedback to affect it. So what did they do? Make it so Feedback can affect everything (units + buildings) except Orbitals and Nexus rather than simply making it so Feedback can affect units OR Point Defense Drone (basically the problem with the former method is that when you add more structures with energy in the game, like in a custom melee map, feedback can affect that unit. the latter method fixes that issue and keeps it regular units + PDD only rather than units + buildings except orbitals/nexus). Also the same issue is for Void Ray's +20% massive damage bonus. Instead of simply making a behavior that makes the Void Ray deal +20% bonus damage to massive and giving to the Void Ray, Blizzard manually added a +20% damage taken (against void ray beams) to all massive units. Not the most efficient method. I hope Blizzard realizes this and figures out that there are a lot of efficient methods to do what they want . Though to be fair, I guess whoever is doing it is may not familiar as with the map editor as frequent map editor people. | ||
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OrD
United States28 Posts
Though I bitched at first I'm beginning to realize that PvT is manageable. As for "CPM".... really? Lol, i guess. :D | ||
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Ipponaku
Canada11 Posts
 It's make no sense.I agree that 45 damage -15 vs Massive is a very good idea. | ||
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Renegade_Doc
United Kingdom11 Posts
 Nothing I said was untrue. Did I leave *plenty* of things out, you bet your ass I did, the post was already a monster. Its not a lie of ommission if I dont include every single aspect of the arguments. And saying that because terrans were happy with the nerf to blue flame because metagame had it used in TvT kinda makes my point for me that Terran are every bit as reactionary and self absorbed as any other race. Fact is, when the nerf was announced and a thread like this made, a *lot* of terrans were vocal about hating the change. Again, anyone with a mind at the time new the nerf was necessary, and people weren't afraid of shouting those vocal terrans quiet At least some people are starting off from the point that snipe is OP, cuz it is. Think everyone can understand why making snipe anti-caster might not be the best solution. Hence so much discussion about *how* it should be nerfed, rather than why it should not be nerfed. Also, "40 ghosts = 80 banelings" is pulled out of your arse. You need to take into account larva, which is very much an important resource. Making a *lot* of blings for any lategame bust is either risky as hell, or you're on so many bases you can afford to throw money away. If it were that easy to counter ghosts with early game units, it would be being done. As people have pointed out, ghosts dont come unsupported, and terran standard armies are *very* good against ling/bling. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On February 16 2012 07:53 Big J wrote: so many words for a simple: "I'm not able to discuss seriously." See... I didn't ask you to. I asked for your opinion. Do you believe, that if we apply the win-rate-by-game-time method to the Playhem replay pack to increase the sample size, that the trends we see in the MLG data vanishes? "I'm not able to discuss seriously." means you have no opinion on the balance of TvZ late game, but for that you are posting a ton of stuff for sure. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote: My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. On February 16 2012 00:25 CyDe wrote: That still does not justify nerfing snipe to a point where it is worthless. On February 16 2012 00:31 krell wrote: Ok, I'm sick of people saying that it is not OK for a T2 unit (ghosts) to counter T3 zerg units. A few points: 1. Terran does NOT have any viable T3 units. On February 15 2012 22:27 WickedSkies wrote: Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. On February 16 2012 01:40 Blasterion wrote: Vikings suck against mutas, everyone knows that. Why would you build something like that? They serve no purpose at that point in game. and will only suck up supply. On February 16 2012 02:52 hunter86 wrote: IMO this is going to force T to do more early all-ins as the probability of a TvZ late game win will go down significantly. On February 16 2012 05:46 angra86 wrote: I feel like terrans are going to be pigeonholed into one or two base all in attacks against zerg after this patch. it's frustrating having virtually no late game to speak of. On February 16 2012 10:13 Glockateer wrote: Terran have the weakest game and win what, 30% late games.... On February 16 2012 14:24 IMoperator wrote: Ghosts are going to be completely useless TvZ (besides for infestors) if the current patch goes through ...and this is why i'm done with this thread | ||
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fiveohfive
Australia81 Posts
Anyone would think that Terran had a 100% win rate against Zerg and Protoss since game release. However this was never the case. I'm sure most will agree Blizzard has just gone overboard with the snipe nerf. Too much. Oh well, the more nerfs Terrans get, the more Zergs and Protoss we will see on ladder. It's a never ending cycle, Terrans will find something else they can utilise and that will get nerfed too. Don't bother actually laying it down to Toss and Zerg to stop crying and work their shit out. It just doesn't seem right that now Terrans do not want go into the lategame with either Zerg or Toss. But I guess if this is how the game devs want the race to be played.... not much can be complained about..... | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On February 16 2012 16:45 fiveohfive wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong. But Terran has received a nerf every patch? Anyone would think that Terran had a 100% win rate against Zerg and Protoss since game release. However this was never the case. I'm sure most will agree Blizzard has just overboard with the snipe nerf. Too much. Oh well, the more nerfs Terrans get, the more Zergs and Protoss we will see on ladder. It's a never ending cycle, Terrans will find something else they can utilise and that will get nerfed too. Don't bother actually laying it down to Toss and Zerg to stop crying and work their shit out. It just doesn't seem right that now Terrans do not want go into the lategame with either Zerg or Toss. But I guess if this is how the game devs want the race to be played.... not much can be complained about..... It's a bummer as theres SO MANY ZERGS on the ladder atm; and every one of them I ask tells me that Zerg is much more relaxed than Terran once you get the Queens down a bit. It makes me want to switch toooo | ||
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Xacalite
Germany533 Posts
Im not gonna comment on snipe because TheDraken already explained what I think of this thread and why. Whining sure is fun yes? Good think terrans dont have marines. EDIT: wasnt Zerg the most played race since ever? Im not sure on that though... | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
Worse; Zergs saying Terran should just adapt while they themselves haven't tried anything vs Ghost but more Broodlord Infestor. | ||
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fiveohfive
Australia81 Posts
On February 16 2012 16:56 Xacalite wrote: after yesterdays games im 100% sure terran will get another nerf next patch or so where the auto-turret "life-time" will be reduced. As it is now it lives forever (not really a problem since no one uses ravens) and that does not reflect a 50 energy spell. everything else with the auto turret is completely fine. Im not gonna comment on snipe because TheDraken already explained what I think of this thread and why. Whining sure is fun yes? Good think terrans dont have marines. EDIT: wasnt Zerg the most played race since ever? Im not sure on that though... Thats a new one, decrease in auto turret time nerf next patch? Yesterday it was that nukes should cost supply...... I got my bids on nuke. Think about the pattern, it was emp to be nerfed first.... then snipe... next I think it will be nukes turn. After this, once they have nerfed all abilities from the ghost, then they will move onto the raven. You heard it here first lads! | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On February 16 2012 17:11 fiveohfive wrote: Thats a new one, decrease in auto turret time nerf next patch? Yesterday it was that nukes should cost supply...... I got my bids on nuke. Think about the pattern, it was emp to be nerfed first.... then snipe... next I think it will be nukes turn. After this, once they have nerfed all abilities from the ghost, then they will move onto the raven. You heard it here first lads! Yes and after that Marine damage to 2 per shot and Barracks buildtime to 300 seconds. Seriously, have some faith. Snipe change is in PTR and won't go through the way it is now; Terran will adapt (once again) and we'll see how stuff plays out from there. Have some optimism man, it's healthy! | ||
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Xacalite
Germany533 Posts
On February 16 2012 17:11 fiveohfive wrote: Thats a new one, decrease in auto turret time nerf next patch? Yesterday it was that nukes should cost supply...... I got my bids on nuke. Think about the pattern, it was emp to be nerfed first.... then snipe... next I think it will be nukes turn. After this, once they have nerfed all abilities from the ghost, then they will move onto the raven. You heard it here first lads! now thats how a realistic forecast looks like =) | ||
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