On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote: ... and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has.
Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map? Surely you don't see supply depots all over the map? Besides, it is like comparing it to a nuke, when terran complains toss has obs or zerg has spores. But surely you don't want to use anything that causes you to think or to do more actions than just a-moving with lings/ultra and spamming t with infestors. The more and more I see comments in TL, the more I realize sc2 deserves what is happening to it. Cause it is the fanbase (you, Idra lovers) that play sc2 and who have some subjective opinion based on their own inability and lack of skill, not some objective scrub nobodys who cite the statistics which show terran late game win ratio vs zerg is below 30%. There is no reason to argue, Blizzard have seen that sc2 needs a race which can take a mainstream gamer to masters with ease. They even created two such races. Good luck to you, sirs.
zerg buffed so much... yeah lol. please tell me more about those incredible buffs.
and your lategame stats... they are taken from one single mlg. their statistical relevance is nonexistent, not only compared to the ladder, region, tournament data that blizzard is collecting and is basing decisions off, but generally.
btw I think you should get at least a warning for such posts. insulting zerg pros(player bashing) and huge parts of the community(zerg players) alike...
I'm willing to put money on the line, that a greater sample size will produce similar results.
The question is: Do you think the terran late game strong enough that the data is just a fluke?
Btw: If they would warn/ban for this, then he couldn't insult large parts of the Zerg population/pros because they couldn't read it due to bans.
about the statistics... I don't know and I can't tell. if anyone has them/the tools to create them, it's blizzard. also i think it is a little hard to just observe statistcal balance of a certain time periode in a game, as the periods are neither really defined (pro ZvZ often has 10min+ of earlygame, but sometimes you will see lairtech roach 3base play as well), but also interact hugely. If you seriously want my opinion on this I want to note beforehand, that this is just theorycraft. I think right now a lot of Terrans are underpreparing for the lategame, because Zergs and Protoss are overpreparing for it against terran. I mean, we see situations in which an observer is like: why the hell does the zerg not just build a bunch of units and crush the incoming terran push, instead of drone. on the otherside we see a lot of terran pushes that might or might not work, completly dependend on the zerg being underprepared. I mean, sure you can build a ton of marauders and hellions (or marines and tanks) and try to catch a zerg with too few units, but let's face it, if he survives this he is on 3base with midgame tech against 2base and midgame techand noone has an army, which favors the faster producing race.
That absolutly doesn't mean that Terrans should stop pressuring or zergs should just randomly produce armies, but I don't think it is a coincidence that aggressive zergs and defensive terrans are the ones that contribute the most to the progress of the game. And specifically: I think that statswise terran higher tech units are absolutly fine, their availability (cost,upgrades,buildtime) could be questionable, but that could also be because you simply will not be able to produce a raven from a baracks or research HSM from a reactor. I mean, does it sound so unreasonable to build starport number 2 instead of baracks number 8 and to add 3vikings against mutalisks and before broodlords instead of adding another 10 marines, when you are not aiming to win before hivetech anyways? and I dont mean to say: Terrans so dumb, so easy solution... but I think there is a lot of room for such stuff in the game in which things just need time to develope. also dont take this as an argument to not patch things and just wait what happens. 150roach armies, mass NP and a unit against which no zerg seems to find a proper solution against when used in the right composition are not fine.
and because it might come up/i mentioned it: I think that TvP lategame is similar, though I think that due to feedback terrans options are more limited. yet a ton of terrans experiment with mech and air units, even/especially on GSL level, so I think it is too early to really make a call on their availability. also terran winrates overall are really fine.
So many words for a simple "No, I won't put my money where my mouth is."
Ghosts are just a symptom of a much more fundamental issue with ZvT. Zergs can get 2-3 bases ahead of Terran, and have an economy that explodes that much easier, but at the same time, Zerg can't do anything with their massive economy until they can throw 2-3 completely maxed out armies at the front door.
You essentially have an entire matchup of Terrans trying to win early-mid game with pushes and timings, and Zergs trying to rush to the late game when they can finally make something happen.
Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
fuck, which "hardcounter?"... you mean 21 unsupported ghosts being cleaned up by a maxed zerg is an indicator that one of the units used therby is a hardcounter? lol. but I will give you some facts for this game (the final battle): 180-190 zerg army supply fighting against 130 army supply of terran. the zerg army costs roughly 10-20% more at this point. MVP has 46ghosts, which is way too much, as he can't snipe that fast nothing apart from one half dead PF that would assist the ghosts with dealing with the 60zerglings or broodlings or infested terrans.
So I absolutly dont mind that MVP wins this engagement with over 20ghosts left. I mean, ghosts are great vs everything apart from the zerglings that darkforce has. and 60 is not that big of a number. What I mind is, that MVPs composition was like 40% smaller in supply and he won. imagine what would be if MVP actually hadnt been broke while his opponent still had over 10.000/5.000 in the bank. I mean, he was nowhere near max. he didnt have static defenses or tanks and thors. give him 30marines and their cleanup duties against broodlings alone will mean that this battle gets from a crushing win to a situation in which MVP hardly loses anything. not to mention that in any even situation he could reproduce something before the next wave hits. MVP lost this because his side was mined out and he was broke on 130army supply while his opponent was maxed and had a bank of 10.000 (so 10.000 more ressources wasted by MVP) It's what you'd call dead with any other composition in any matchup.
also the fact that you think it's good if terran has a "40 ghosts, I win"goal is just retarted.
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
fuck, which "hardcounter?"... you mean 21 unsupported ghosts being cleaned up by a maxed zerg is an indicator that one of the units used therby is a hardcounter? lol. but I will give you some facts for this game (the final battle): 180-190 zerg army supply fighting against 130 army supply of terran. the zerg army costs roughly 10-20% more at this point. MVP has 46ghosts, which is way too much, as he can't snipe that fast nothing apart from one half dead PF that would assist the ghosts with dealing with the 60zerglings or broodlings or infested terrans.
So I absolutly dont mind that MVP wins this engagement with over 20ghosts left. I mean, ghosts are great vs everything apart from the zerglings that darkforce has. and 60 is not that big of a number. What I mind is, that MVPs composition was like 40% smaller in supply and he won. imagine what would be if MVP actually hadnt been broke while his opponent still had over 10.000/5.000 in the bank. I mean, he was nowhere near max. he didnt have static defenses or tanks and thors. give him 30marines and their cleanup duties against broodlings alone will mean that this battle gets from a crushing win to a situation in which MVP hardly loses anything. not to mention that in any even situation he could reproduce something before the next wave hits. MVP lost this because his side was mined out and he was broke on 130army supply while his opponent was maxed and had a bank of 10.000 (so 10.000 more ressources wasted by MVP) It's what you'd call dead with any other composition in any matchup.
also the fact that you think it's good if terran has a "40 ghosts, I win"goal is just retarted.
hopefully they do a ptr and their message means that the patch is not ready for pr yet... and not that they are confident on bringing this patch based on internal testing only.
if it takes longer they could do the "mule-nobrainer" in between and experiment more with the other changes.
On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote: ... and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has.
Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map? Surely you don't see supply depots all over the map? Besides, it is like comparing it to a nuke, when terran complains toss has obs or zerg has spores. But surely you don't want to use anything that causes you to think or to do more actions than just a-moving with lings/ultra and spamming t with infestors. The more and more I see comments in TL, the more I realize sc2 deserves what is happening to it. Cause it is the fanbase (you, Idra lovers) that play sc2 and who have some subjective opinion based on their own inability and lack of skill, not some objective scrub nobodys who cite the statistics which show terran late game win ratio vs zerg is below 30%. There is no reason to argue, Blizzard have seen that sc2 needs a race which can take a mainstream gamer to masters with ease. They even created two such races. Good luck to you, sirs.
zerg buffed so much... yeah lol. please tell me more about those incredible buffs.
and your lategame stats... they are taken from one single mlg. their statistical relevance is nonexistent, not only compared to the ladder, region, tournament data that blizzard is collecting and is basing decisions off, but generally.
btw I think you should get at least a warning for such posts. insulting zerg pros(player bashing) and huge parts of the community(zerg players) alike...
I'm willing to put money on the line, that a greater sample size will produce similar results.
The question is: Do you think the terran late game strong enough that the data is just a fluke?
Btw: If they would warn/ban for this, then he couldn't insult large parts of the Zerg population/pros because they couldn't read it due to bans.
about the statistics... I don't know and I can't tell. if anyone has them/the tools to create them, it's blizzard. also i think it is a little hard to just observe statistcal balance of a certain time periode in a game, as the periods are neither really defined (pro ZvZ often has 10min+ of earlygame, but sometimes you will see lairtech roach 3base play as well), but also interact hugely. If you seriously want my opinion on this I want to note beforehand, that this is just theorycraft. I think right now a lot of Terrans are underpreparing for the lategame, because Zergs and Protoss are overpreparing for it against terran. I mean, we see situations in which an observer is like: why the hell does the zerg not just build a bunch of units and crush the incoming terran push, instead of drone. on the otherside we see a lot of terran pushes that might or might not work, completly dependend on the zerg being underprepared. I mean, sure you can build a ton of marauders and hellions (or marines and tanks) and try to catch a zerg with too few units, but let's face it, if he survives this he is on 3base with midgame tech against 2base and midgame techand noone has an army, which favors the faster producing race.
That absolutly doesn't mean that Terrans should stop pressuring or zergs should just randomly produce armies, but I don't think it is a coincidence that aggressive zergs and defensive terrans are the ones that contribute the most to the progress of the game. And specifically: I think that statswise terran higher tech units are absolutly fine, their availability (cost,upgrades,buildtime) could be questionable, but that could also be because you simply will not be able to produce a raven from a baracks or research HSM from a reactor. I mean, does it sound so unreasonable to build starport number 2 instead of baracks number 8 and to add 3vikings against mutalisks and before broodlords instead of adding another 10 marines, when you are not aiming to win before hivetech anyways? and I dont mean to say: Terrans so dumb, so easy solution... but I think there is a lot of room for such stuff in the game in which things just need time to develope. also dont take this as an argument to not patch things and just wait what happens. 150roach armies, mass NP and a unit against which no zerg seems to find a proper solution against when used in the right composition are not fine.
and because it might come up/i mentioned it: I think that TvP lategame is similar, though I think that due to feedback terrans options are more limited. yet a ton of terrans experiment with mech and air units, even/especially on GSL level, so I think it is too early to really make a call on their availability. also terran winrates overall are really fine.
So many words for a simple "No, I won't put my money where my mouth is."
I guess that speaks for itself.
so many words for a simple: "I'm not able to discuss seriously."
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
fuck, which "hardcounter?"... you mean 21 unsupported ghosts being cleaned up by a maxed zerg is an indicator that one of the units used therby is a hardcounter? lol. but I will give you some facts for this game (the final battle): 180-190 zerg army supply fighting against 130 army supply of terran. the zerg army costs roughly 10-20% more at this point. MVP has 46ghosts, which is way too much, as he can't snipe that fast nothing apart from one half dead PF that would assist the ghosts with dealing with the 60zerglings or broodlings or infested terrans.
So I absolutly dont mind that MVP wins this engagement with over 20ghosts left. I mean, ghosts are great vs everything apart from the zerglings that darkforce has. and 60 is not that big of a number. What I mind is, that MVPs composition was like 40% smaller in supply and he won. imagine what would be if MVP actually hadnt been broke while his opponent still had over 10.000/5.000 in the bank. I mean, he was nowhere near max. he didnt have static defenses or tanks and thors. give him 30marines and their cleanup duties against broodlings alone will mean that this battle gets from a crushing win to a situation in which MVP hardly loses anything. not to mention that in any even situation he could reproduce something before the next wave hits. MVP lost this because his side was mined out and he was broke on 130army supply while his opponent was maxed and had a bank of 10.000 (so 10.000 more ressources wasted by MVP) It's what you'd call dead with any other composition in any matchup.
also the fact that you think it's good if terran has a "40 ghosts, I win"goal is just retarted.
how often are terrans able to mass 40+ ghosts?
To bounce off of this, how often are terrans (or should they) be allowed to sit on that many bases for that long without punishment? MVP still lost the game, with the "overpowered" ghosts, and saying MVP is garbage you got another thing coming to you (flaming, bm'img, etc.) You are the only player on this practically preview thread that basically shuts everyone down with stupid, stupid kind of evidence. Terran actually spent ALOT more to get that many ghosts than the zerg army lol... plus the engagement was in terran's favor at first, but there are solutions for zerg (due to being able to tech switch with a flick of a finger) and none for terran late game (considerably longer tech switches that would make it not even cost effective) if this patch goes through. I never said, 40 ghosts is an auto win, however, I said if a zerg allows a terran to turtle like that they deserve to lose if a terran has 40+ ghosts and was not punished or scouted to see how many he had or if he was switching to that tech.
Its okay, I understand you lost one game as zerg against a terran who went mass ghosts, maybe analyze your replays and change something because you obviously did something wrong and does not mean something is imbalanced. I think collosus are soooooo freaking good, do I sit here and cry on TL forums that they are too good in a deathball toss? No, it means I need to try my best to snipe bases, and deny him from getting to an unkillable amount of supply late game.
Terrans constantly learn how to play different, shouldn't zerg or toss get some kind of same treatment? Yes.
On February 16 2012 07:20 Kayzie wrote: Time to reroll Zerg EZEE MODE!
Considering this myself and I agree. Done with having to learn how to play differently every patch
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
fuck, which "hardcounter?"... you mean 21 unsupported ghosts being cleaned up by a maxed zerg is an indicator that one of the units used therby is a hardcounter? lol. but I will give you some facts for this game (the final battle): 180-190 zerg army supply fighting against 130 army supply of terran. the zerg army costs roughly 10-20% more at this point. MVP has 46ghosts, which is way too much, as he can't snipe that fast nothing apart from one half dead PF that would assist the ghosts with dealing with the 60zerglings or broodlings or infested terrans.
So I absolutly dont mind that MVP wins this engagement with over 20ghosts left. I mean, ghosts are great vs everything apart from the zerglings that darkforce has. and 60 is not that big of a number. What I mind is, that MVPs composition was like 40% smaller in supply and he won. imagine what would be if MVP actually hadnt been broke while his opponent still had over 10.000/5.000 in the bank. I mean, he was nowhere near max. he didnt have static defenses or tanks and thors. give him 30marines and their cleanup duties against broodlings alone will mean that this battle gets from a crushing win to a situation in which MVP hardly loses anything. not to mention that in any even situation he could reproduce something before the next wave hits. MVP lost this because his side was mined out and he was broke on 130army supply while his opponent was maxed and had a bank of 10.000 (so 10.000 more ressources wasted by MVP) It's what you'd call dead with any other composition in any matchup.
also the fact that you think it's good if terran has a "40 ghosts, I win"goal is just retarted.
how often are terrans able to mass 40+ ghosts?
To bounce off of this, how often are terrans (or should they) be allowed to sit on that many bases for that long without punishment? MVP still lost the game, with the "overpowered" ghosts, and saying MVP is garbage you got another thing coming to you (flaming, bm'img, etc.) You are the only player on this practically preview thread that basically shuts everyone down with stupid, stupid kind of evidence. Terran actually spent ALOT more to get that many ghosts than the zerg army lol... plus the engagement was in terran's favor at first, but there are solutions for zerg (due to being able to tech switch with a flick of a finger) and none for terran late game (considerably longer tech switches that would make it not even cost effective) if this patch goes through. I never said, 40 ghosts is an auto win, however, I said if a zerg allows a terran to turtle like that they deserve to lose if a terran has 40+ ghosts and was not punished or scouted to see how many he had or if he was switching to that tech.
Its okay, I understand you lost one game as zerg against a terran who went mass ghosts, maybe analyze your replays and change something because you obviously did something wrong and does not mean something is imbalanced. I think collosus are soooooo freaking good, do I sit here and cry on TL forums that they are too good in a deathball toss? No, it means I need to try my best to snipe bases, and deny him from getting to an unkillable amount of supply late game.
Terrans constantly learn how to play different, shouldn't zerg or toss get some kind of same treatment? Yes.
On February 16 2012 07:20 Kayzie wrote: Time to reroll Zerg EZEE MODE!
Considering this myself and I agree. Done with having to learn how to play differently every patch
why should I even argue with made up stuff... i didnt say anything bad about MVP darkforce knew that mvp went ghosts and had a good idea about the amount and just because you're not good enough to build a lot of ghosts, doesnt mean you have to give darkforce shit for not being able to do prevent it on way higher level
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
fuck, which "hardcounter?"... you mean 21 unsupported ghosts being cleaned up by a maxed zerg is an indicator that one of the units used therby is a hardcounter? lol. but I will give you some facts for this game (the final battle): 180-190 zerg army supply fighting against 130 army supply of terran. the zerg army costs roughly 10-20% more at this point. MVP has 46ghosts, which is way too much, as he can't snipe that fast nothing apart from one half dead PF that would assist the ghosts with dealing with the 60zerglings or broodlings or infested terrans.
So I absolutly dont mind that MVP wins this engagement with over 20ghosts left. I mean, ghosts are great vs everything apart from the zerglings that darkforce has. and 60 is not that big of a number. What I mind is, that MVPs composition was like 40% smaller in supply and he won. imagine what would be if MVP actually hadnt been broke while his opponent still had over 10.000/5.000 in the bank. I mean, he was nowhere near max. he didnt have static defenses or tanks and thors. give him 30marines and their cleanup duties against broodlings alone will mean that this battle gets from a crushing win to a situation in which MVP hardly loses anything. not to mention that in any even situation he could reproduce something before the next wave hits. MVP lost this because his side was mined out and he was broke on 130army supply while his opponent was maxed and had a bank of 10.000 (so 10.000 more ressources wasted by MVP) It's what you'd call dead with any other composition in any matchup.
also the fact that you think it's good if terran has a "40 ghosts, I win"goal is just retarted.
how often are terrans able to mass 40+ ghosts?
not often, but lets say zerg had a "20.000 minerals in the bank, I win"goal.
it is more rare for zerg to have 20.000 minerals than there is for a terran to have 40 ghosts, but you must agree that there should not be any one situation which can be satisfied by one side, which automaticly wins.
for example, if I have 1 drone and you have 100 marines, then you deserve to win the game, thus "a zerg has only 1 drone while the terran has 100 marines means the terran wins" this should be true, however, "a zerg has 25 broodlords and 50 corruptors means the zerg wins" should not be true, because that means there is nothing a terran can do against this army, no matter what, and if this was the case, then the matchup is flawed.
the video is an excellent example of why the terran ghost should be severely nerfed.
I agree with every change (first time so far since beta), and I have been expecting most of these changes since beta. Very good, glad the game is finally getting patched closer and closer to perfection (still have at least half a dozen more balance patches to go imho).
Is it unfair to consider ghosts like BW tanks (TvP) ? You must trade to keep the number down or you die? IMO I think the ready availability of medivacs along with the durability of ghosts (especially relative to other casters) might be an issue but a scenario in which you die after a certain number of "hard to get units" is amassed isn't absurd.
As a BW fan, I think it's kind of funny what Blizzard has done with Terran in SC2.
In BW, Terran was the hardest race to play at low-mid levels (C+ and below, the equivalent of mid-masters and below I guess). Well, if we ignore mech TvZ play which didn't arise until later. Terran was fine in the hands of pros, but it was always hard to play as a casual player.
In SC2, I think Blizzard really wanted to change that, hence the marauder and MULEs and all this stuff that let low and mid-level Ts do well. Over the last year and a half they've basically gone back to making Terran how it was in BW: "If you're not very good, you should probably not play Terran"
On February 16 2012 09:30 Hinanawi wrote: As a BW fan, I think it's kind of funny what Blizzard has done with Terran in SC2.
In BW, Terran was the hardest race to play at low-mid levels (C+ and below, the equivalent of mid-masters and below I guess). Well, if we ignore mech TvZ play which didn't arise until later. Terran was fine in the hands of pros, but it was always hard to play as a casual player.
In SC2, I think Blizzard really wanted to change that, hence the marauder and MULEs and all this stuff that let low and mid-level Ts do well. Over the last year and a half they've basically gone back to making Terran how it was in BW: "If you're not very good, you should probably not play Terran"
Funny how that works.
Now where is my spider mine that I've missed so much?
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
fuck, which "hardcounter?"... you mean 21 unsupported ghosts being cleaned up by a maxed zerg is an indicator that one of the units used therby is a hardcounter? lol. but I will give you some facts for this game (the final battle): 180-190 zerg army supply fighting against 130 army supply of terran. the zerg army costs roughly 10-20% more at this point. MVP has 46ghosts, which is way too much, as he can't snipe that fast nothing apart from one half dead PF that would assist the ghosts with dealing with the 60zerglings or broodlings or infested terrans.
So I absolutly dont mind that MVP wins this engagement with over 20ghosts left. I mean, ghosts are great vs everything apart from the zerglings that darkforce has. and 60 is not that big of a number. What I mind is, that MVPs composition was like 40% smaller in supply and he won. imagine what would be if MVP actually hadnt been broke while his opponent still had over 10.000/5.000 in the bank. I mean, he was nowhere near max. he didnt have static defenses or tanks and thors. give him 30marines and their cleanup duties against broodlings alone will mean that this battle gets from a crushing win to a situation in which MVP hardly loses anything. not to mention that in any even situation he could reproduce something before the next wave hits. MVP lost this because his side was mined out and he was broke on 130army supply while his opponent was maxed and had a bank of 10.000 (so 10.000 more ressources wasted by MVP) It's what you'd call dead with any other composition in any matchup.
also the fact that you think it's good if terran has a "40 ghosts, I win"goal is just retarted.
how often are terrans able to mass 40+ ghosts?
To bounce off of this, how often are terrans (or should they) be allowed to sit on that many bases for that long without punishment? MVP still lost the game, with the "overpowered" ghosts, and saying MVP is garbage you got another thing coming to you (flaming, bm'img, etc.) You are the only player on this practically preview thread that basically shuts everyone down with stupid, stupid kind of evidence. Terran actually spent ALOT more to get that many ghosts than the zerg army lol... plus the engagement was in terran's favor at first, but there are solutions for zerg (due to being able to tech switch with a flick of a finger) and none for terran late game (considerably longer tech switches that would make it not even cost effective) if this patch goes through. I never said, 40 ghosts is an auto win, however, I said if a zerg allows a terran to turtle like that they deserve to lose if a terran has 40+ ghosts and was not punished or scouted to see how many he had or if he was switching to that tech.
Its okay, I understand you lost one game as zerg against a terran who went mass ghosts, maybe analyze your replays and change something because you obviously did something wrong and does not mean something is imbalanced. I think collosus are soooooo freaking good, do I sit here and cry on TL forums that they are too good in a deathball toss? No, it means I need to try my best to snipe bases, and deny him from getting to an unkillable amount of supply late game.
Terrans constantly learn how to play different, shouldn't zerg or toss get some kind of same treatment? Yes.
On February 16 2012 07:20 Kayzie wrote: Time to reroll Zerg EZEE MODE!
Considering this myself and I agree. Done with having to learn how to play differently every patch
why should I even argue with made up stuff... i didnt say anything bad about MVP darkforce knew that mvp went ghosts and had a good idea about the amount and just because you're not good enough to build a lot of ghosts, doesnt mean you have to give darkforce shit for not being able to do prevent it on way higher level
READ YOUr POST! GoOd god what has team liquid come to. (5 year olds making statements and then trying to deny everything they said. ) What is funny, is when something someone sits here and tries to convince everyone it is a lie because they cannot admit they were wrong from the beginning.
On February 16 2012 09:30 Hinanawi wrote: As a BW fan, I think it's kind of funny what Blizzard has done with Terran in SC2.
In BW, Terran was the hardest race to play at low-mid levels (C+ and below, the equivalent of mid-masters and below I guess). Well, if we ignore mech TvZ play which didn't arise until later. Terran was fine in the hands of pros, but it was always hard to play as a casual player.
In SC2, I think Blizzard really wanted to change that, hence the marauder and MULEs and all this stuff that let low and mid-level Ts do well. Over the last year and a half they've basically gone back to making Terran how it was in BW: "If you're not very good, you should probably not play Terran"
Funny how that works.
Now where is my spider mine that I've missed so much?
One can only dream, it brings tears to my eyes thinking about how much better a game SC2 would be if the hellion were replaced by the vulture.
EPT
