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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 16 2012 09:00 FreshZerg wrote:
I agree with every change (first time so far since beta), and I have been expecting most of these changes since beta. Very good, glad the game is finally getting patched closer and closer to perfection (still have at least half a dozen more balance patches to go imho).
Too bad your idea of perfection is zerg winning every game no matter what. Terran have the weakest game and win what, 30% late games...
I've been okay with every nerf until this ghost one (and the barracks +5 seconds build time is just stupid when it was only the map size being the problem).
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Someone in the BNet forums suggested that snipe should do 45 damage (25 vs massive), I think this is the best solution.
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Terrans have to understand that the past few patches were buffing other races and nerfing them because Terran in the first place is the most complete race. Ghosts were never meant to counter broodlords.
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The arguments about the snipe nerf reminds me of the MASSIVE outcry at the blueflame nerf.
Remember?
When blueflame hellions were going to become 100% useless?
That totally happened. Those shit blueflame hellions are useless.
Never win any games with those pieces of crap anymore, eh?
*perhaps* the nerf is too much in the form suggested right now, but that's why PTR is used.
Arguing that it is fine because the nerf would be too hard on terran endgame is *horribly* flawed.
All this, and ghosts (snipe especially) went amost *unused* until very damn recently, and terran were doing fine even without them (check your historic win ratios, terran have *never* been underpowered, and 5 raxx reaper? yeah...)
The argument that zerg can "techswitch in the blink of an eye" is retarded as well, especially when the tech switch cited most often is mass lings.
The endgame tech switches have shown to be weak vs heavy ghost compositions, time and time again, ultras? snipe. broodlords? snipe. back to ling/bling/muta midgame play? snipe the tech, lings vs *anything* will melt fast enough unsupported.
If lings are such a great and obvious solution to ghosts, to the point where its the only viable option, then that means terran get to know exactly what they need to play against, I'm sure the budding terran mind can come up to a counter to lings?
I dont get how tech switching is somehow free for zerg, yes, it's easier to rebuild a tailored army as zerg, but terran can just make an army that is solid vs anything and add in some flavour for the zerg to deal with.
Also take into account the strength of terran early game.
Even well timed pressure builds take games from decent zerg, or outright crush lower leaguers.
Hell, proxying barracks for bunker rushes cannot be punished by zerg. Even assuming lucky scouting, the terran doesn't really *lose* anything. (this has been shown time and again, and is why 2rax remained popular)
(idra vs alive showmatch, alive floats his raxx around to spot the OL idra needs to scout, and wins with mass hellions idra couldn't have known were coming. Should idra have assumed something tricky, yup. He definitely dint defend as well as he could, but without the necessary scouting info, he'd have been rolling dice.)
Early midgame still doesn't give a macro zerg any advantages, as the 10minute~ tank marine pushes show up as or before the first mutas pop, and even if *crushed* terran should have enough at home to prevent any reasonable counter.
Even agressive zerg run the risk of being shut down and essentially losing immediately.
Midgame is arguably in favour of muta/ling zergs as the muta ball gets to work pinning and expansions get layed down (how many terran repeatedly called for nerfs to this style? before even trying to get thors to force magic boxing, or overproducing turrets as we see a lot now? Hell, I think maruaders were still in vogue in TvZ at the time...)
Seems overall pretty balanced and fun though
Endgame, the switch to hive is tough, and teching to broods after is often nailbiting. Terran get to see all of this if they've been actively scouting, the spire and lair wont in fact sprout legs and walk off, so a scan will suffice.
The zerg however has to take head counts on units, sacc units to look at production and so on. Still not so bad, I can see a terran legitimately arguing that does not need to be changed, as tech switching for them is a bit of a ballache in lategame (early game, you switch addons like all the buildings need to catch the cooties)
That leaves a pretty big window to get stuff done, even talking just lategame.
Plenty enough to exploit. But call all things equal and zerg makes it.
Currently, any terran worth his salt has been getting ghosts.
These ghosts can now;
- EMP infectors, an essential component of the army.
- Snipe: infestors, blings, mutas, corruptors, ultas and broods, all trading not ony cost effectively, but given a decent engagement (which terran will have unless *very* unlucky) *crushingly*
Having one unit to counter them all is not good. Infestors are that for zerg.
It was patched in as a crutch because zerg could *not* deal with certain compositions and timings.
Terran do not have such problems.
And yet, when infestors became popular, a "one unit counter to everything" these forums were alight with how abusive they were, and needed nerfing.
Without
Even
Trying
Broodlord infestor endgame also means that the zerg army just became the least mobile army in the game.
We here all about exploiting slow armies dont we? I hear you like drop play...
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People need to stop hyperbolising.
Ghost snipe is OP atm, any reasoning person can see that.
Way back when Zerg admittedly *repeatedly* that infestors were too good and probably needed nerfing and were certainly difficult to deal with, Terran are not providing the same courtesy.
After 30 minutes, you finally get to feel some of what zergs feel all game long, and it makes you every bit as whiney as the worst zerg players.
IF the nerf goes live in its current form, IF the lategame balance shifts back in zergs favour. I'd still give it a little time and see if a solid pro cant come up with an equally elegent solution, which all terrans will then adopt and start acting like the terran race is the genius that tries everything while the other races sit in their basement playing pokemon and trying to get by on their looks.
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On February 16 2012 10:20 Renegade_Doc wrote:
The arguments about the snipe nerf reminds me of the MASSIVE outcry at the blueflame nerf.
Remember?
When blueflame hellions were going to become 100% useless?
That totally happened. Those shit blueflame hellions are useless.
Never win any games with those pieces of crap anymore, eh?
*perhaps* the nerf is too much in the form suggested right now, but that's why PTR is used.
Arguing that it is fine because the nerf would be too hard on terran endgame is *horribly* flawed.
All this, and ghosts (snipe especially) went amost *unused* until very damn recently, and terran were doing fine even without them (check your historic win ratios, terran have *never* been underpowered, and 5 raxx reaper? yeah...)
The argument that zerg can "techswitch in the blink of an eye" is retarded as well, especially when the tech switch cited most often is mass lings.
The endgame tech switches have shown to be weak vs heavy ghost compositions, time and time again, ultras? snipe. broodlords? snipe. back to ling/bling/muta midgame play? snipe the tech, lings vs *anything* will melt fast enough unsupported.
If lings are such a great and obvious solution to ghosts, to the point where its the only viable option, then that means terran get to know exactly what they need to play against, I'm sure the budding terran mind can come up to a counter to lings?
I dont get how tech switching is somehow free for zerg, yes, it's easier to rebuild a tailored army as zerg, but terran can just make an army that is solid vs anything and add in some flavour for the zerg to deal with.
Also take into account the strength of terran early game.
Even well timed pressure builds take games from decent zerg, or outright crush lower leaguers.
Hell, proxying barracks for bunker rushes cannot be punished by zerg. Even assuming lucky scouting, the terran doesn't really *lose* anything. (this has been shown time and again, and is why 2rax remained popular)
(idra vs alive showmatch, alive floats his raxx around to spot the OL idra needs to scout, and wins with mass hellions idra couldn't have known were coming. Should idra have assumed something tricky, yup. He definitely dint defend as well as he could, but without the necessary scouting info, he'd have been rolling dice.)
Early midgame still doesn't give a macro zerg any advantages, as the 10minute~ tank marine pushes show up as or before the first mutas pop, and even if *crushed* terran should have enough at home to prevent any reasonable counter.
Even agressive zerg run the risk of being shut down and essentially losing immediately.
Midgame is arguably in favour of muta/ling zergs as the muta ball gets to work pinning and expansions get layed down (how many terran repeatedly called for nerfs to this style? before even trying to get thors to force magic boxing, or overproducing turrets as we see a lot now? Hell, I think maruaders were still in vogue in TvZ at the time...)
Seems overall pretty balanced and fun though
Endgame, the switch to hive is tough, and teching to broods after is often nailbiting. Terran get to see all of this if they've been actively scouting, the spire and lair wont in fact sprout legs and walk off, so a scan will suffice.
The zerg however has to take head counts on units, sacc units to look at production and so on. Still not so bad, I can see a terran legitimately arguing that does not need to be changed, as tech switching for them is a bit of a ballache in lategame (early game, you switch addons like all the buildings need to catch the cooties)
That leaves a pretty big window to get stuff done, even talking just lategame.
Plenty enough to exploit. But call all things equal and zerg makes it.
Currently, any terran worth his salt has been getting ghosts.
These ghosts can now;
- EMP infectors, an essential component of the army.
- Snipe: infestors, blings, mutas, corruptors, ultas and broods, all trading not ony cost effectively, but given a decent engagement (which terran will have unless *very* unlucky) *crushingly*
Having one unit to counter them all is not good. Infestors are that for zerg.
It was patched in as a crutch because zerg could *not* deal with certain compositions and timings.
Terran do not have such problems.
And yet, when infestors became popular, a "one unit counter to everything" these forums were alight with how abusive they were, and needed nerfing.
Without
Even
Trying
Broodlord infestor endgame also means that the zerg army just became the least mobile army in the game.
We here all about exploiting slow armies dont we? I hear you like drop play...
***
People need to stop hyperbolising.
Ghost snipe is OP atm, any reasoning person can see that.
Way back when Zerg admittedly *repeatedly* that infestors were too good and probably needed nerfing and were certainly difficult to deal with, Terran are not providing the same courtesy.
After 30 minutes, you finally get to feel some of what zergs feel all game long, and it makes you every bit as whiney as the worst zerg players.
IF the nerf goes live in its current form, IF the lategame balance shifts back in zergs favour. I'd still give it a little time and see if a solid pro cant come up with an equally elegent solution, which all terrans will then adopt and start acting like the terran race is the genius that tries everything while the other races sit in their basement playing pokemon and trying to get by on their looks.
I am providing the same courtesy, I think personally snipe does need a nerf, a 45 -25massive unit nerf, not making the ghost the most ineffective spell caster in the game, might as well build 4 extra marines. However, biased this post is, it is the only contradicting post that has made a decent claim from the opposing side (the ones who want the patch) for 209 pages.
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On February 16 2012 10:16 Trilandian wrote:
Someone in the BNet forums suggested that snipe should do 45 damage (25 vs massive), I think this is the best solution.
Wasn't that qxc's idea orginally?
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On February 16 2012 10:23 xUnSeEnx wrote:
However, biased this post is, it is the only contradicting post that has made a decent claim from the opposing side (the ones who want the patch) for 209 pages.
I have been customing as zerg lately (yup, I'm awful, probably not even up to gold) against 2 Terran, so I've been playing the matchup against players that are better than me 
My first loyalties lie with protoss (and I'm perfectly happy to discuss the flaws there)
I can confess a mild bias, but honestly, not that big of one. I just think this is a storm in a tea cup, and Terran is as bad as zerg at seeing anything that doesn;t favour them being the end of the world.
When I discussed it amongst my friends, the 25vs massive was our favourite solution too. Sniping banes is *awesome* and should remain an option,
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I have thought about the 45 (25 v massive) and I think a really exciting mechanic would be that snipe damage increased to something like 55 and then be reduced by by 5 x Armor level on all massive units. This would buff the ghost v zealots for cleanup in end game pvt while nerfing snipes v ultras/broodlords. It might also add in an interesting dynamic where you want both broodlords and ultralisks in an end game composition instead of switching back between them. I.E. ultralisks with their higher armor would be tankier against snipe than broodlords but broodlords are harder to get at, so T would have to make a decision on how to expend energy.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 16 2012 10:20 Renegade_Doc wrote:
The arguments about the snipe nerf reminds me of the MASSIVE outcry at the blueflame nerf.
Remember?
When blueflame hellions were going to become 100% useless?
That totally happened. Those shit blueflame hellions are useless.
Never win any games with those pieces of crap anymore, eh?
Well, actually, pros almost never upgrade blue flame anymore except sometimes in mech vs bio in TvT. I mean, hellions are still fine as an opener, but blue flame is pretty rare.
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On February 16 2012 10:04 architecture wrote:
To people who say that 20+ ghosts is unstoppable:
20 ghosts = 80 banelings. Does anyone think that 80 banelings dropped on any T position with mass ghosts, that the ghosts would survive?
Heres the issue, a lot of people have said that mass t1 counters ghost pretty well, and it does, using a snipe per bling/ling is terribly inefficient. What would usually happen is the metagame would evolve to as well once a zerg loses his blord army, he will instantly remax on ling bling and zerg will be fine. Unfortunately since this is Terran we are talking about, Blizzard is deciding to act now instead of let people figure the game out, like what happened with Infestor/Blord which was unbeatable before ghosts.
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On February 16 2012 10:20 Renegade_Doc wrote:
The arguments about the snipe nerf reminds me of the MASSIVE outcry at the blueflame nerf.
Remember?
When blueflame hellions were going to become 100% useless?
That totally happened. Those shit blueflame hellions are useless.
Never win any games with those pieces of crap anymore, eh?
Actually, many terrans were really happy back them simply because TvT was devolving into BFH wars where every game was just scrambling your workers away from hellion drops. Marines were totally ineffective against them. The reason BFH was nerfed was mostly TvT as well as some random early aggression against zerg that was just silly. I personally didn't mind the nerf at all, and yes I play terran.
Please stop using this strawman as justifying the ghost change, there is no connection.
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On February 16 2012 10:20 Renegade_Doc wrote:
The arguments about the snipe nerf reminds me of the MASSIVE outcry at the blueflame nerf.
Remember?
When blueflame hellions were going to become 100% useless?
That totally happened. Those shit blueflame hellions are useless.
Never win any games with those pieces of crap anymore, eh?
*perhaps* the nerf is too much in the form suggested right now, but that's why PTR is used.
Arguing that it is fine because the nerf would be too hard on terran endgame is *horribly* flawed.
All this, and ghosts (snipe especially) went amost *unused* until very damn recently, and terran were doing fine even without them (check your historic win ratios, terran have *never* been underpowered, and 5 raxx reaper? yeah...)
...
BL/infestor/ultra is just as new as ghosts and snipe. Its not like that unit combo was around since beta, of course Terran was doing fine before it existed without ghosts, cuz there was no reason to build them in the first place.
This argument was so flawed I couldn't bother to read the rest of your post.
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On February 16 2012 11:26 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 10:20 Renegade_Doc wrote:
The arguments about the snipe nerf reminds me of the MASSIVE outcry at the blueflame nerf.
Remember?
When blueflame hellions were going to become 100% useless?
That totally happened. Those shit blueflame hellions are useless.
Never win any games with those pieces of crap anymore, eh?
Actually, many terrans were really happy back them simply because TvT was devolving into BFH wars where every game was just scrambling your workers away from hellion drops. Marines were totally ineffective against them. The reason BFH was nerfed was mostly TvT as well as some random early aggression against zerg that was just silly. I personally didn't mind the nerf at all, and yes I play terran. Please stop using this strawman as justifying the ghost change, there is no connection.
As a terran player I will quote what this person is saying. BFH nerf was fine and it was aimed at TvT.
What you (Renegad_Doc) said was simply wrong.
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On February 16 2012 10:20 Renegade_Doc wrote:
- Snipe: infestors, blings, mutas, corruptors, ultas and broods, all trading not ony cost effectively, but given a decent engagement (which terran will have unless *very* unlucky) *crushingly*
This alone shows how lost you are.
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Hi everyone, I am a masters Terran and obviously I fully take the terran side of this debate (mainly cuz snipe is awesome and i hate it when blizz nerfs anything of terrans) . However, i will argue from the zerg POV since i do agree with many things zergs have been saying.
First of all, Snipe is OP against Z late game. For zergs, knowing that anything t2-t3 can be dealt with quite effectively with a single unit is pretty gay. If i were a zerg attacking only to see my shit die from a crap ton of snipes (renewable since its energy) I would be really pissed. Pushing and getting your army crushed, only to remax and get crushed again is not fun to do. Sometimes I wonder," so i just threw 350 food at this terran defense. He lost like a few ghosts, soem tanks, a good amount of marines, still has a good sized army left. niceeeeee". Its very difficult to say that snipe isn't a great ability against zerg. It deals with anything the zerg throws at a terran:
Ultras, muta, roach, infestor, broodlord - Snipe.
Infestors - EMP
Zergling, hydra - regular shot does 20 dmg. Pretty damn good.
And keep in mind, its not like terran isn't also making marines and tanks. for ppl who say,"oh yea just make zerglings against ghosts", i mean tanks and marines are pretty good against those. plus zerglings require a shitton of larva assuming u gonna mass that shit. So i dont agree with a tech switch to tier1. That said, terran can rely very heavily on the ghost to being an incredibly strong addition to its army. (of course, zergs one way of dealing with the ghost is to not let the terran get ghosts right? XD) -its a joke ppl.
Obviously, if a zerg is at 200 and terran is at 125, terrans prolly gonna get crushed even if he has ghosts. zerg will just have too much shit that the snipes will only alleviate the anal rape, but terrans asshole is gonna be super red tender.
So now to say that 25 to everything but queens, infestors, hightemplars, and other ghosts does lessen the ghosts reliability. Is the snipe still good? yes since it increases the range of ghosts attack since broodlords can just outrange ur shit sometimes. but I do not agree with the increased dmg to only psionic. I support qxcs comment since 3 snipes for 1 marine with combat shield is ridic. I even thought of increasing the energy of snipe so that instead of less dmg, u just have less snipes to use. I would argue that a balance of dmg and energy would help maintain the ghosts effectiveness in every matchup while allowing zergs some breathing room against ghosts.
And to those ppl saying "now i can't snipe zealots as the death ball engages me". Emp is significantly the better option since it does 100 area dmg and wipes sentry energy, u dont have to keep recasting the ability, and most importantly, if you dont micro ur main DPS units (the MMM ball) those zealots that u have been sniping might be 70% dead, but the main protoss army is hugging you for not moving away. (obviously many things are situational, there will be times sniping is the better option, but lets all be cool and assume protoss main army is very close to these zealots.)
TL;DR - Snipe is OP, a change was absolutely necessary. Just not such a severe change, perhaps increase energy or change the dmg against massive units.
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I do find it strange that as different strategies are explored the solution is to mostly nerf the offending units. We've seen it several times with Terran. Reapers, Blue Flame Hellions, and now the Ghost. Early marines were even nerfed indirectly with the barracks after supply depot and barracks build time increases. Sometimes it does feel like this:
I don't always balance SC2...
Although to be fair both Infestors and HTs were nerfed after the community figured out how to use/abuse their powers.
I'd much rather see buffs used to counter observed deficiencies in each race as opposed to nerfs. The reduction in Toss upgrades, and the Phoenix buff from this patch are examples of how I believe Blizzard should handle balancing the game. It goes over much better with the community to buff the preceived under powered race than to nerf the perceived OP race. IMHO.
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On February 16 2012 13:23 DrLOAC wrote:
I'd much rather see buffs used to counter observed deficiencies in each race as opposed to nerfs. The reduction in Toss upgrades, and the Phoenix buff from this patch are examples of how I believe Blizzard should handle balancing the game. It goes over much better with the community to buff the preceived under powered race than to nerf the perceived OP race. IMHO.
To a point. Power creep is a horrible thing.
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On February 16 2012 13:26 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 13:23 DrLOAC wrote:
I'd much rather see buffs used to counter observed deficiencies in each race as opposed to nerfs. The reduction in Toss upgrades, and the Phoenix buff from this patch are examples of how I believe Blizzard should handle balancing the game. It goes over much better with the community to buff the preceived under powered race than to nerf the perceived OP race. IMHO. To a point. Power creep is a horrible thing.
Well that's true. But even a side grade would be better than what were getting. Make Snipe 30 + 25vs light. It's a buff in TvT and still protects the TvZ late game from Snipe spam. It would also answer qxc's complaint.
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On February 16 2012 13:28 NMx.StyX wrote:
is this patch live?
No, it's not live yet
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EPT
