i have 3more vikings and an extra starport if a BL switch comes. I can more easily go into ravens - the unit that jinro considers borderline broken against Z in the lategame - if I want to.
but yeah, if you dont think that is better than not having them in the lategame, i guess I will concentrate on land and lift.
btw Im not gonna answer you anymore about things that you could have read in my original post.
The more vikings, the less marines and tanks. Thus delaying a game that you might've have won into late game where Terran has little chances.
Step 1: Ling/Muta/Bane as always Step 2: Proceed into heavy BL/Corruptor army with Infestor support Step 3: Stream in Ultra/Ling as this gets killed Step 4: Win
It's not really that Ghosts won't be able to kill BLs anymore, it's that you'll need to invest more heavily in Vikings (which do absolutely nothing to Ultralisks) to take out Zerg's air force. At least with Ghosts, you had a unit that was somewhat effective (no, at no point did Ghosts counter Ultralisks) against Ultra tech switches (which are inevitable). Now, you'll never be able to hold the line long enough to get out enough Marauders to actually deal with the Ultra stream. That's the problem.
Shiori obviously haven't watched GSL ^^ There was one game in particular don't remember exactly which. In essence terran had ~15 ghosts killed a ton of broodlords and then a ton of ultras. Terran won even though zerg had maxed army vs non maxed, more bases, more tech and a huge bank. Casters and me agreed there was nothing zerg could've done differently. He played a really good game but ghosts were just basically 2 OP to overcome.
On February 16 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote: Step 1: Ling/Muta/Bane as always Step 2: Proceed into heavy BL/Corruptor army with Infestor support Step 3: Stream in Ultra/Ling as this gets killed Step 4: Win
It's not really that Ghosts won't be able to kill BLs anymore, it's that you'll need to invest more heavily in Vikings (which do absolutely nothing to Ultralisks) to take out Zerg's air force. At least with Ghosts, you had a unit that was somewhat effective (no, at no point did Ghosts counter Ultralisks) against Ultra tech switches (which are inevitable). Now, you'll never be able to hold the line long enough to get out enough Marauders to actually deal with the Ultra stream. That's the problem.
I vote to leave Snipe as it is. No changes.
There are other ways to beat BL/Corruptor though without much vikings. Abusing the slow movement of BL's is one for example. Snipe being too good against it lead to boring games where the T would just force a split map and wait till the ghost army would deal with any T3 tech Z could muster. I'm always against turtle strats being too strong and the race that can turtle the best should have some lategame problems, this forces some aggression and leads to more fun games. If balance is screwed by this, which I highly doubt, T can have some other buff in response imo but not ghost snipe which promotes boring play..
I feel they will have to wait for HoTS to nerf snipe, because the real problem for Terran lategame seems to be the instaremax with ultra once they lose their broodlords. If Terran doesn't have something which can do moderately well against such a tech-switch, and vikings don't fulfill this role, they have no chance.
On February 16 2012 03:32 oZe wrote: Shiori obviously haven't watched GSL ^^ There was one game in particular don't remember exactly which. In essence terran had ~15 ghosts killed a ton of broodlords and then a ton of ultras. Terran won even though zerg had maxed army vs non maxed, more bases, more tech and a huge bank. Casters and me agreed there was nothing zerg could've done differently. He played a really good game but ghosts were just basically 2 OP to overcome.
You obviously haven't watched GSL if u think terran late game is OP. Also, what game was that ONE game where ghosts seemed OP? I can think of several where terran just gets stomped in late game w/o even being able to get high ghost counts.
On February 16 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote: Step 1: Ling/Muta/Bane as always Step 2: Proceed into heavy BL/Corruptor army with Infestor support Step 3: Stream in Ultra/Ling as this gets killed Step 4: Win
I vote to leave Snipe as it is. No changes.
Well Terran did get a lot worse vs Zerg late but on the positive side Ghosts will do a lot more damage to Protoss late since about 1/2 of it's units are psionic including WP. I enjoyed storm drops while it lasted.
On February 16 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote: Step 1: Ling/Muta/Bane as always Step 2: Proceed into heavy BL/Corruptor army with Infestor support Step 3: Stream in Ultra/Ling as this gets killed Step 4: Win
I vote to leave Snipe as it is. No changes.
Well Terran did get a lot worse vs Zerg late but on the positive side Ghosts will do a lot more damage to Protoss late since about 1/2 of it's units are psionic including WP.
U can only snipe biological units. DTs, HTs and zealots for protoss.
On February 16 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote: Step 1: Ling/Muta/Bane as always Step 2: Proceed into heavy BL/Corruptor army with Infestor support Step 3: Stream in Ultra/Ling as this gets killed Step 4: Win
I vote to leave Snipe as it is. No changes.
Well Terran did get a lot worse vs Zerg late but on the positive side Ghosts will do a lot more damage to Protoss late since about 1/2 of it's units are psionic including WP.
U can only snipe biological units. DTs, HTs and zealots for protoss.
Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
wat.
Does the fact that MVP is able to stay in the game for so long and still lose bother you?
On February 16 2012 04:09 Torra wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP-P2o7rZ0 Here's a better example of how ghosts can be beaten. Since every zerg refers to MVP vs Nestea for ghosts vs BLs, and July vs MVP for ghosts vs ultras, and they're both horrible examples.
wow, ty for posting this. yeah, some ghostnerf is strongly needed.
lol that shows you tht every zerg complaining didnt even using the hard counter to ghosts. Be quiet please and actually watch the video completely the next time before you post something so ignorant. On top of this, a zerg who allows a terran to get 40+ ghosts DESERVES to lose the game if they sat back and were not doing any form of scouting. (You then ask, I CANNOT SCOUT WHAT DO I DO?, here is a solution: spread overlords everywhere and send zerglings at him to scout his base). Remember zerg, you can tech switch in the blink of an eye, terrans cannot.
(You would think that with this many people raging over a change, it should be revisited, but then blizzard would have a select few spamming flamers (toss and zerg players) on the forums screaming why it should be nerfed so they can get free wins against terran and do not have to learn to play the game.)
On February 16 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote: Step 1: Ling/Muta/Bane as always Step 2: Proceed into heavy BL/Corruptor army with Infestor support Step 3: Stream in Ultra/Ling as this gets killed Step 4: Win
It's not really that Ghosts won't be able to kill BLs anymore, it's that you'll need to invest more heavily in Vikings (which do absolutely nothing to Ultralisks) to take out Zerg's air force. At least with Ghosts, you had a unit that was somewhat effective (no, at no point did Ghosts counter Ultralisks) against Ultra tech switches (which are inevitable). Now, you'll never be able to hold the line long enough to get out enough Marauders to actually deal with the Ultra stream. That's the problem.
I vote to leave Snipe as it is. No changes.
There are other ways to beat BL/Corruptor though without much vikings. Abusing the slow movement of BL's is one for example. Snipe being too good against it lead to boring games where the T would just force a split map and wait till the ghost army would deal with any T3 tech Z could muster. I'm always against turtle strats being too strong and the race that can turtle the best should have some lategame problems, this forces some aggression and leads to more fun games. If balance is screwed by this, which I highly doubt, T can have some other buff in response imo but not ghost snipe which promotes boring play..
What other methods? Marine/thor? Come on. Abusing the slow movement? That's like counting on your opponent getting out of position. What if they don't push too far ahead with their broods? Are you just supposed to accept that as a loss?
I feel like terrans are going to be pigeonholed into one or two base all in attacks against zerg after this patch. If they're going to neuter the shit out of snipe, the least they could do is make ravens a worthwhile unit or something, it's frustrating having virtually no late game to speak of.
It's to me almost to like starcraft 2 is about a game centered around micro, and everything's a glass cannon. I don't think blizzards choices are the worst buts lets hope the units get a little beefy and at least a little innovative, some units to me in sc2 feel generic but in bw every unit was awesome!
On February 16 2012 03:37 SiroKO wrote: I feel they will have to wait for HoTS to nerf snipe, because the real problem for Terran lategame seems to be the instaremax with ultra once they lose their broodlords. If Terran doesn't have something which can do moderately well against such a tech-switch, and vikings don't fulfill this role, they have no chance.
If a zerg loses his entire broodlord army and enough recources to instantly remax on Ultras, then you lost the game a long time ago.
On February 16 2012 03:37 SiroKO wrote: I feel they will have to wait for HoTS to nerf snipe, because the real problem for Terran lategame seems to be the instaremax with ultra once they lose their broodlords. If Terran doesn't have something which can do moderately well against such a tech-switch, and vikings don't fulfill this role, they have no chance.
If a zerg loses his entire broodlord army and enough recources to instantly remax on Ultras, then you lost the game a long time ago.
On February 16 2012 03:37 SiroKO wrote: I feel they will have to wait for HoTS to nerf snipe, because the real problem for Terran lategame seems to be the instaremax with ultra once they lose their broodlords. If Terran doesn't have something which can do moderately well against such a tech-switch, and vikings don't fulfill this role, they have no chance.
If a zerg loses his entire broodlord army and enough recources to instantly remax on Ultras, then you lost the game a long time ago.
He doesn't need to "remax." He just needs to be capable of streaming them in. Besides, there shouldn't be a point in any game where you say "oh, you let the game go on too long; nothing you can do will allow you to win now."
As the BLs/Infestors/whatever die, the Zerg can streaming Ultra/Ling reinforcements. We've seen this happen in plenty of pro matches. A lot of times, Zergs have won. Other times, Terrans have been able to hold the line with Snipe long enough to build up Tanks and Marauders. With this nerf, there will be no way for Terran to hang on.
EPT
