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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 15 2012 22:09 GreatestThreat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 21:57 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks. The guy he quoted was actually talking about BLs, but I guess broodlings, fungal and tank splash won't hurt the ghosts either? He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post. I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal?
"it's a 300/250 unit.
and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. "
This is what I was talking about, and I don't exactly think he's talking about ultras. I specifically said THE GUY HE QUOTED.
BLs are pretty good vs tanks I heard. And the same thing can be said about microing ghosts.
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IMHO the APM change won't make a difference.
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On February 15 2012 22:27 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 22:09 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:57 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks. The guy he quoted was actually talking about BLs, but I guess broodlings, fungal and tank splash won't hurt the ghosts either? He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post. I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal? "it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. " This is what I was talking about, and I don't exactly think he's talking about ultras. I specifically said THE GUY HE QUOTED. BLs are pretty good vs tanks I heard. And the same thing can be said about microing ghosts.
Um... what? The person he quoted said nothing like that. What you're quoting was said by the person who was being quoted by the person the person you were quoting was quoting.
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On February 15 2012 22:51 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 22:27 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 22:09 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:57 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks. The guy he quoted was actually talking about BLs, but I guess broodlings, fungal and tank splash won't hurt the ghosts either? He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post. I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal? "it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. " This is what I was talking about, and I don't exactly think he's talking about ultras. I specifically said THE GUY HE QUOTED. BLs are pretty good vs tanks I heard. And the same thing can be said about microing ghosts. Um... what? The person he quoted said nothing like that. What you're quoting was said by the person who was being quoted by the person the person you were quoting was quoting.
lol. I am so confused. can't we all be friends?
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Did I get it wrong =s I tried to make sure what I said was correct and proof-read it like 3 times but now it confuses me too
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On February 15 2012 22:51 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 22:27 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 22:09 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:57 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks. The guy he quoted was actually talking about BLs, but I guess broodlings, fungal and tank splash won't hurt the ghosts either? He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post. I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal? "it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. " This is what I was talking about, and I don't exactly think he's talking about ultras. I specifically said THE GUY HE QUOTED. BLs are pretty good vs tanks I heard. And the same thing can be said about microing ghosts. Um... what? The person he quoted said nothing like that. What you're quoting was said by the person who was being quoted by the person the person you were quoting was quoting.
lolwut? I'm not even gonna bother explaining, so nvm. 
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On February 15 2012 22:27 WickedSkies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote:
... and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has. Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map? Surely you don't see supply depots all over the map? Besides, it is like comparing it to a nuke, when terran complains toss has obs or zerg has spores. But surely you don't want to use anything that causes you to think or to do more actions than just a-moving with lings/ultra and spamming t with infestors. The more and more I see comments in TL, the more I realize sc2 deserves what is happening to it. Cause it is the fanbase (you, Idra lovers) that play sc2 and who have some subjective opinion based on their own inability and lack of skill, not some objective scrub nobodys who cite the statistics which show terran late game win ratio vs zerg is below 30%. There is no reason to argue, Blizzard have seen that sc2 needs a race which can take a mainstream gamer to masters with ease. They even created two such races. Good luck to you, sirs.
zerg buffed so much... yeah lol. please tell me more about those incredible buffs.
and your lategame stats... they are taken from one single mlg. their statistical relevance is nonexistent, not only compared to the ladder, region, tournament data that blizzard is collecting and is basing decisions off, but generally.
btw I think you should get at least a warning for such posts. insulting zerg pros(player bashing) and huge parts of the community(zerg players) alike...
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On February 15 2012 23:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 22:27 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote:
... and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has. Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map? Surely you don't see supply depots all over the map? Besides, it is like comparing it to a nuke, when terran complains toss has obs or zerg has spores. But surely you don't want to use anything that causes you to think or to do more actions than just a-moving with lings/ultra and spamming t with infestors. The more and more I see comments in TL, the more I realize sc2 deserves what is happening to it. Cause it is the fanbase (you, Idra lovers) that play sc2 and who have some subjective opinion based on their own inability and lack of skill, not some objective scrub nobodys who cite the statistics which show terran late game win ratio vs zerg is below 30%. There is no reason to argue, Blizzard have seen that sc2 needs a race which can take a mainstream gamer to masters with ease. They even created two such races. Good luck to you, sirs. zerg buffed so much... yeah lol. please tell me more about those incredible buffs. and your lategame stats... they are taken from one single mlg. their statistical relevance is nonexistent, not only compared to the ladder, region, tournament data that blizzard is collecting and is basing decisions off, but generally. btw I think you should get at least a warning for such posts. insulting zerg pros(player bashing) and huge parts of the community(zerg players) alike...
I'm willing to put money on the line, that a greater sample size will produce similar results.
The question is: Do you think the terran late game strong enough that the data is just a fluke?
Btw:
If they would warn/ban for this, then he couldn't insult large parts of the Zerg population/pros because they couldn't read it due to bans.
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Even Idra said on ITG that Terran late game should be buffed (and mid game nerfed). Interesting, just putting it out there :p
Though one thing's clear, the Ghost nerf is badly made. Follows in the steps of the Thor nerf, reaper nerf etc..
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Okay, so I posted on this thread about... oh, a hundred and fifty pages back. So here I am, back again, to chip in my own little opinion again.
Look, let's just say that snipe IS overpowered. I don't really have the credibility to say whether or not it is, because I am a gold player, but these are my concerns. Let's just say it is. This nerf is far too much, far too soon. I remember there being an article Blizzard put out talking about the delicate "balancing act" involved in StarCraft.
This is not delicate. This is a major, enormous change, without any evidence that it should be nerfed to this extent. I understand the idea of making ghost less of a 'counter zerg t3' unit. But to the point where it cannot even be used as a harassment tool? Snipe is now a far too specific spell, with only ONE purpose: killing spell casters. This reduces the amount of creativity that one can use snipe for; it strangleholds the development of the ghost.
Another thing. The main way that snipe is overpowered is when it is queued up, or bound to the mouse key. And what Blizzard is doing here, is instead of removing the abuse of the spell, deciding to adapt to the abuse of the spell. This would be like, back in the beta, when one could 'warp in' immortals, Blizzard decides to nerf immortals instead of get rid of the glitch. What they really should be doing is adding some sort of cooldown to snipe, making it impossible to queue up; if you had 10 ghosts you might be able to kill one ultra instantly, and then wait, say, 4 seconds to slowly kill the next one (without queuing).
I also like the idea of having it do reduced damage vs massive. That would solve the problem Blizz claims to have while not teleporting snipe to oblivion.
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On February 15 2012 23:26 CyDe wrote:
Okay, so I posted on this thread about... oh, a hundred and fifty pages back. So here I am, back again, to chip in my own little opinion again.
Look, let's just say that snipe IS overpowered. I don't really have the credibility to say whether or not it is, because I am a gold player, but these are my concerns. Let's just say it is. This nerf is far too much, far too soon. I remember there being an article Blizzard put out talking about the delicate "balancing act" involved in StarCraft.
This is not delicate. This is a major, enormous change, without any evidence that it should be nerfed to this extent. I understand the idea of making ghost less of a 'counter zerg t3.' But to have it so that it cannot even be used as a harassment tool? Snipe is now a far too specific spell, with only ONE purpose: killing spell casters. This reduces the amount of creativity that one can use snipe for; it strangleholds the development of the ghost.
Another thing. The main way that snipe is overpowered is when it is queued up, or bound to the mouse key. And what Blizzard is doing here, is instead of removing the abuse of the spell, deciding to adapt to the abuse of the spell. This would be like, back in the beta, when one could 'warp in' immortals, Blizzard decides to nerf immortals instead of get rid of the glitch. What they really should be doing is adding some sort of cooldown to snipe, making it impossible to queue up; if you had 10 ghosts you might be able to kill one ultra instantly, and then wait, say, 4 seconds to slowly kill the next one (without queuing).
I also like the idea of having it do reduced damage vs massive. That would solve the problem Blizz claims to have while not teleporting snipe to oblivion.
The bolded part makes a lot of sense to me. Even something as small as a 3s cooldown would have pretty good ramifications for the ability as a whole without completely neutering it in every other situation.
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On February 15 2012 22:09 GreatestThreat wrote:
He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post.
I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal?
Huh? Tanks doesn't auto target infestors. You have to focus fire them manually. The same goes with banelings etc, as far as I know tanks doesn't have any smart-firing at all (if you don't focus fire, they'll shoot at zerglings inside a clump of marines before big clumps of banelings).
The only thing the smart firing does, is so that tanks doesn't overkill, which is something that all units have that doesn't shoot projectiles.
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Even something as small as a 3s cooldown would have pretty good ramifications for the ability as a whole without completely neutering it in every other situation.
A 1s cooldown would do the job, but it'd limit the Ghost's usefulness in other situations so I'd still rather see something like 25 (+20 non-massive). I will be unhappy if the patch goes through in its current form, units need to be made less rather than more specific and having a spellcaster whose job is to counter other spellcasters is just bad.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
Can the zerg players stop saying "use ravens more" because It is the same thing terran players used to say before- "use nydus more". People have no idea of the capabilities of the races they dont play. I will tell you why the raven is not such a great unit.
Raven sucks because:
Cost: 200 gas is a lot of resources, even for terran who needs to spend all the gas on medivacs vikings tanks and ghosts as well as essential upgrades.
Tech: its very inconvenient that ravens need tech labs because terran loves reactor starport for viking and medivacs. Ravens also have quite a hefty build time.
Cast range: Raven has horrible cast range and therefore easily sniped, only 6 range of HSM and 3 for PDD both of which are out ranged by fungal growth (and feedback) by quite a margin.
Seeker Missile: So many bad aspects - Low cast range, slow movement speed, friendly fire, Stupid energy cost. You will be lucky to even get to cast this let alone get a good hit off.
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Ooo all the more reason that snipe should just be simply changed to hitting only ground targets (and stay at 45). That way they can't instantly kill the unit that works against the cloak. Limited usefulness against broodlord. OK against ultra, and caster war against infestors.
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Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map?
So... try to use your superior terran IQ here.
If you have vision all over your bases, and Z cant afford to "1a" your siege line. Where would you with your superior knowlege place your nydus?
In a place where he can detect itimmediately kill it with 5 workers or in front of the siege line where its use is non existant?
Especially if 2/3 of you army is flying units
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On February 15 2012 22:09 GreatestThreat wrote:
He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post.
I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal?
What the hell. So what if, hypothetically, every single other terran unit is overpowered? That still does not justify nerfing snipe to a point where it is worthless. Plus your comparison between stimmed marines and fungal growth is like comparing apples and Maseratis. Despite that, I would rather have fungal than a stimmed marine...
1. Fungal is an AOE ability. So therefore it can actually do WAY more dps than a marine, which can only single target.
2. It locks enemies in place. This includes these stimmed marines you seem so pissed about.
3. It costs energy. How is this a drawback? Stim costs health lol.
4. Also, fungal doesn't hit your own units, like tank splash.
You're 'logic' works like: "G is better than 5, and not only that, but the sky is fucking green! What the hell?"
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Ok, I'm sick of people saying that it is not OK for a T2 unit (ghosts) to counter T3 zerg units. A few points:
1. Terran does NOT have any viable T3 units.
Thors are T3 that are useful ONLY in countering T2 (mutas). And are vulnerable to T1, T2, and T3 units (Ultras, BLs, lings, roaches).
Battlecruisers, at this stage, are worthless in TvZ. Why? If they are scouted, all it takes is one wave of corruptor production to nullify them. Their damage is limited against ground and air (doesnt have any splash so zerglings detract from other targets, AND low damage makes them useless aginst ultra armor). They are slow as hell and easily NP'd / fungaled which makes it hard to move around.
Cloaked Banshees - would be viable if terran had a AA solution to mutalisks (ie, buffed raven). They are extremely vulnerable to infestors, mutas, corruptors. They force tech labs on the starport which forces a huge capital investment in starports in addition to the reactored starports.
2. So yes, ghosts are T2 that counter T3, and snipe is a really strong spell. But, you cannot nerf this spell without offering some form of counter-balance. Make on of the T3 units actually WORTH getting.
- Give BC's some splash against light units.
- OR give BC's the ability to attack air and ground at the same time
- OR Allow terrans to select which units thors focus first (target prioritizing - would allow for a lot more thor micro)
- OR decrease raven build time OR cost OR spell energy cost.
- OR make raven turrets FLAME turrets so they can actually do some damage.
Then you can talk about nerfing snipe.
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On February 15 2012 16:30 LittleWM wrote:
I'm not convinced on the phoenix change. Am I the only one that gets countered heavily by corrupters when I use phoenix as it is?
ETA: Because, if they're going mutaling, they're transitioning in to brood lord anyway.
What do you want a air unit that can't be countered? And are you forgetting speed of the air units? Just wait this phoenix change is really really good and will shut down DRG type domination of protoss in a defensive position. But they are still hard countered by corruptors, hydra, infestors siting at Zerg home.
On February 14 2012 15:39 usethis2 wrote:
There is a testing going on with range 6 Phoenix v. Mutalisks @PlayXP. Current consensus is you need about 8~10 Phoenix throughout the whole game, no matter how many Mutalisks are coming at you. Korean ladder Masters. 10 Pheonix v 30 mutalisks resulted in 8 Phoenix left over. (all Mutalisks dead) Both Phoenix and Muta are microed by similarly skilled friends.
It's an experiment to give you guys what to expect. Overlords are also much easier to kill because static air units no longer stack since patch 1.30 (?). Unless each ovie has a personal spore, there are bound to be angles where spores can't reach phoenix.
Pretty much what I predicted would happen.
Brotosses I've been thinking about this Phoenix upgrade and it is definity useful even as much as it costs and as late as it comes. As we all know phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas but their price, build time, range and limited/non use vs ground forces made them ineffective and BO loss counter. especially at large muta numbers then protoss just can't leave his base or he dies. This upgrade does not change the current meta game before 10-12 min. Zerg will still be able to do muta harass in small numbers and a small number of stalkers or small number of range 4 phoenix could stay at home to defend and it allows protoss to actually move out. Where it changes if the Zerg decides to totally dedicate himself to mutas to the point those stalkers or pheonix are just overwhelmed. Then we can tech, for a price, to super hard counter with micro, and still get get to leave our base with main force and not be overrun by mutas. Our phoenix still get owned by infestors and hydras so it allows us to defend and not have 30 useless phoenix after we deal with mutas. We just build 5-8 when we see mutas and that's as far as we ever have to go besides tech. Pretty cool huh?
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On February 15 2012 23:20 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 23:08 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 22:27 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote:
... and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has. Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map? Surely you don't see supply depots all over the map? Besides, it is like comparing it to a nuke, when terran complains toss has obs or zerg has spores. But surely you don't want to use anything that causes you to think or to do more actions than just a-moving with lings/ultra and spamming t with infestors. The more and more I see comments in TL, the more I realize sc2 deserves what is happening to it. Cause it is the fanbase (you, Idra lovers) that play sc2 and who have some subjective opinion based on their own inability and lack of skill, not some objective scrub nobodys who cite the statistics which show terran late game win ratio vs zerg is below 30%. There is no reason to argue, Blizzard have seen that sc2 needs a race which can take a mainstream gamer to masters with ease. They even created two such races. Good luck to you, sirs. zerg buffed so much... yeah lol. please tell me more about those incredible buffs. and your lategame stats... they are taken from one single mlg. their statistical relevance is nonexistent, not only compared to the ladder, region, tournament data that blizzard is collecting and is basing decisions off, but generally. btw I think you should get at least a warning for such posts. insulting zerg pros(player bashing) and huge parts of the community(zerg players) alike... I'm willing to put money on the line, that a greater sample size will produce similar results. The question is: Do you think the terran late game strong enough that the data is just a fluke? Btw: If they would warn/ban for this, then he couldn't insult large parts of the Zerg population/pros because they couldn't read it due to bans.
about the statistics... I don't know and I can't tell. if anyone has them/the tools to create them, it's blizzard. also i think it is a little hard to just observe statistcal balance of a certain time periode in a game, as the periods are neither really defined (pro ZvZ often has 10min+ of earlygame, but sometimes you will see lairtech roach 3base play as well), but also interact hugely.
If you seriously want my opinion on this I want to note beforehand, that this is just theorycraft.
I think right now a lot of Terrans are underpreparing for the lategame, because Zergs and Protoss are overpreparing for it against terran. I mean, we see situations in which an observer is like: why the hell does the zerg not just build a bunch of units and crush the incoming terran push, instead of drone.
on the otherside we see a lot of terran pushes that might or might not work, completly dependend on the zerg being underprepared. I mean, sure you can build a ton of marauders and hellions (or marines and tanks) and try to catch a zerg with too few units, but let's face it, if he survives this he is on 3base with midgame tech against 2base and midgame techand noone has an army, which favors the faster producing race.
That absolutly doesn't mean that Terrans should stop pressuring or zergs should just randomly produce armies, but I don't think it is a coincidence that aggressive zergs and defensive terrans are the ones that contribute the most to the progress of the game.
And specifically: I think that statswise terran higher tech units are absolutly fine, their availability (cost,upgrades,buildtime) could be questionable, but that could also be because you simply will not be able to produce a raven from a baracks or research HSM from a reactor. I mean, does it sound so unreasonable to build starport number 2 instead of baracks number 8 and to add 3vikings against mutalisks and before broodlords instead of adding another 10 marines, when you are not aiming to win before hivetech anyways?
and I dont mean to say: Terrans so dumb, so easy solution... but I think there is a lot of room for such stuff in the game in which things just need time to develope.
also dont take this as an argument to not patch things and just wait what happens. 150roach armies, mass NP and a unit against which no zerg seems to find a proper solution against when used in the right composition are not fine.
and because it might come up/i mentioned it:
I think that TvP lategame is similar, though I think that due to feedback terrans options are more limited. yet a ton of terrans experiment with mech and air units, even/especially on GSL level, so I think it is too early to really make a call on their availability. also terran winrates overall are really fine.
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EPT
