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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 15 2012 08:08 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 08:03 blade55555 wrote:On February 15 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 07:27 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart. Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready. And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources. I don't know who said that, but I was mentioning that they got buffs, because someone else was saying that blizzard exclusivly cared for the useability of Marine/Marauder when it comes down to patching Terran. also on Raven "not good" (and TvZ lategame unwinable for Terran because gas is not spendable and there are no good tech units etc...): ask Jinro. post 5 in the link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310650 Wow I did not realize terrans were already experimenting with ravens are w/e. I knew they would be good tvz but that was just my theory didn't know it was already proven xD. i think that jinro post was taken out of context... every time i've watched jinro's stream he's been complaining about zerg being broken (rage after losing)
I don't know how his post in the thread could possibly be taken out of context. I didn't even quote it and therby cut anything that could be important to the context, rathet just gave the link to the whole context in which he posted.
also the fact that he says that the HSM could still need a buff (I guess for earlier availability and smoother transition), sounds a lot like him trying to be reasonable.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 15 2012 07:44 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:41 Whitewing wrote:On February 15 2012 05:32 Elyvilon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 15 2012 04:50 Whitewing wrote:
We're talking about BC's as a late game transition when you're looking at a 4+ base situation for terran, not as something you get early. If you don't have +3 air weapons at that point, I'm confused as to how you're still alive vs. toss. Obviously we're not suggesting you get BC's early on in the match: but when the game goes on for a while and both players have hit that point where they aren't sure how and when to attack, and are constantly jostling for position, getting BC's while doing drops is perfect. No. Battlecruisers are absolute garbage, and Terran doesn't have the gas to spare to get air upgrades. Stop trying to get him into feeding you easy wins after you spam feedback on them and win. Actually, terran does get air weapons(and, at least if you're Kas, air armour after that) against protoss so your vikings can take down colossi quickly. I mean, BCs still aren't good against protoss, but they will have at least weapon upgrades. Watch any late game TvP in the GSL: any of them that get past the 3 base mark have the terran getting air upgrades. We've seen some games that go past the half hour mark with terrans switching into BC's because they force a certain composition from protoss, and they're inefficient for the Protoss anti-ground army to deal with. Protoss can't afford to throw away probes like terran can throw away scvs in the late game (MULES), so Terran can add in a few special units that take advantage of the army comp of Protoss. If you think terrans can't afford air weapons upgrades, you're talking out your ass. A really good example is Ryung vs. Tassadar, was a very back and forth and close game, Ryung eventually took it, and he used a battlecruiser transition in the game to give his army the edge it needed. Or you can look up Empire.Happy vs Tod game where Happy managed to throw away huge lead by going battlecruisers.
Obviously if you play it completely wrong you can lose a lead. What's important is that, if you play it right, it can work, and well. This should be enough for people to actually TRY it, rather than say "NO BC'S SUCK".
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On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy.
I have no clue what you're talking about.
#1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching.
#2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of.
#3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies.
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I like that this thread is now about terran lategame options to replace mass ghost. I feel like that's what a patch like this is supposed to provoke. I wouldn't be opposed to a BC/Raven/general lategame T buff in exchange for ghosts no longer countering entire races.
Some of the suggestions in this thread might just be crazy enough to work.
On February 14 2012 17:42 Thrombozyt wrote:
Suggested changes to make the BC useful:
- Can move while shooting
- Can utilize air-to-ground and air-to-air batteries simultaneously
On February 14 2012 18:12 Lithian wrote:
Not sure if this has been suggested, but it seems that terrans have problems remaxing their lategame army and reacting to tech switches. So maybe adding an upgrade to engineering bay, which also needs either armory or fusion core, transforming all add-ons to tech reactors, similiar to the ones from the campaign.
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On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies.
Thing is if you add Ravens you probably are Meching or at least have a big tank count else you're not going to have time to get out the Ravens and Gas is an issue then and losing Ravens then is very bad. Mech just works a thousand times better with Ravens since Thors and Tanks both have zoning tools as protection and are just as slow or even slower. With Bio its alot hard to cover Ravens. Yeah Marines kill Mutas pretty fast but well upgrades Thors kill Mutas in 2 shots with great range while the tanks cover against Infestors it just covers more bases.
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Does anyone know where this new CPM and APM stuff is? I watched my replay and i still only see APM.
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On February 15 2012 08:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:50 Zeetox wrote:
Turning on Beastyqt's stream - he's playing Protoss
Startale_Rainbow - Zerg
Who will be next after the patch? xD turning on both streams, rainbow plays T, beasty just went offline.
MC often plays Random on ladder too when he streams, just for the heck of it ^^ It's pretty cool to watch him play the other races.
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This is good news, now the map making community can use gold expansions again.
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On February 15 2012 01:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:17 Dalavita wrote:On February 15 2012 01:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Warping in 10-15 gateway units against a bio ball is going to actually do absolutely nothing against a little micro, because the only attacking units being warped in are primarily zealots and stalkers. WHAT!? If you've ever played an endgame tvp fight you'd know that "all" the terran has once the fight is over is badly damaged bio, and I guarantee you sir that chargelots work wonders against those. With no medivacs, no micro, and no wedging between buildings, I suppose so. What league are you talking about? I was talking about a higher league where balance can honestly be discussed.
Any league above the league where protosses don't know that reinforcing with zealots after a battle is good.
Being rude doesn't hide the fact that you're clueless. Medivacs die, get feedbacked and run out of energy, and of course there's always buildings to wedge between, amirite? That's not to mention that stim by itself hurts your already damaged army and is needed to kite properly vs zealots. The followup warpin will destroy you.
On February 15 2012 02:47 SniXSniPe wrote:Can't believe they will really go through with this. I have been lamenting this for a while, but I think I will end up switching main races. Maybe go back to Random like I use to, or play Z or P. Still unsure... I love T and all (from BW too  ), but trying to play it at a high level really is quite demanding and recently feels out of reach.
I feel you. I've been ok with 90% of the terran nerfs, although I felt that the EMP nerf was premature and a result of protosses not playing properly, it was still doing to much damage.
This however... The snipe change won't actually affect me as I've been in like two or three tvz ever where it'd even gotten to the situation where mass ghosts saw usage, but absolutely shattering an ability that had a lot of room left for experimentation in the future, before zergs could even attempt figuring out how to deal with it, considering how weak terrans lategame is right now... I'm getting seriously put off playing terran or the game in itself. I feel the snipe change more than anything shows that Blizzard don't know what they're doing. I'm going to wait and see, but if it goes live like this, and looking at how dull and uninspired most of the hots units are, I think I'm done playing SC2 until they get their act sorted.
Basically. The snipe change shows everything that's currently wrong with Blizzards mental mindset of the game should be played.
It limits options by killing off the ability and forces it to be used in extremely specific circumstances. The "counter" approach that most units have.
It shows a disregard of game states in different stages of the game, terran strength in the early/midgame and their weakness in the lategame.
The lack of time given for the players to develop a response to a new unit/strat/build.
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On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies.
theorycrafting at its best.
if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up.
when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game.
often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing.
edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p
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On February 15 2012 01:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:17 Dalavita wrote:On February 15 2012 01:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Warping in 10-15 gateway units against a bio ball is going to actually do absolutely nothing against a little micro, because the only attacking units being warped in are primarily zealots and stalkers. WHAT!? If you've ever played an endgame tvp fight you'd know that "all" the terran has once the fight is over is badly damaged bio, and I guarantee you sir that chargelots work wonders against those. With no medivacs, no micro, and no wedging between buildings, I suppose so. What league are you talking about? I was talking about a higher league where balance can honestly be discussed.
It's pretty funny to see people who are blatantly wrong talk about leagues as if that would prove them right.
Unless the terran can absolutely roll over a protoss army in that big engagement, and I mean having like a 50+ supply bioball left with medivacs to create that snowball effect, you cannot attack a protoss base. Period. Even smaller amounts of upgraded chargelots will rip damaged bioballs absolutely apart, and you see this all the time in pro-level games. Trying to overextend your army is a sure way to lose any advantage you got by winning the big fight. Watch Lastshadows recent TvP blogs, he talks about how a terran can deal with not being able to attack protoss because of zealot warp-ins.
Now that I read more of your posts many of the points you make (ghost cost change being a buff for example) are also blatantly wrong, if you want to post with a "higher league" understanding you might actually try to learn the game first.
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Guys.... No PTR 
"We have decided that, at this time, we will not be operating a public test realm for the 1.4.3 patch.
I have edited the previous post by Aldrexus in this thread to reflect that fact.
We apologize for the confusion created on this subject. Thank you for the excellent feedback on the many other topics that have come up in this thread."
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=17#330
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I'm not convinced on the phoenix change. Am I the only one that gets countered heavily by corrupters when I use phoenix as it is?
ETA: Because, if they're going mutaling, they're transitioning in to brood lord anyway.
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On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p
But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases?
Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability.
So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors.
The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign.
Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away.
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[QUOTE]On February 15 2012 03:04 TheDwf wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg.[/QUOTE]
Can we get some more GREAT examples of how ghosts is OP?
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Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money...
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On February 15 2012 18:59 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases? Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability. So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors. The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign. Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away.
so terran need no less than 3 super expensive units to counter broodlord? wtf... zerg already has infestors because they're godlike, and already has corruptors because they're broodlord larvae. terran don't have dozens of vikings, ghosts and ravens just floating around.
you're still theorycrafting. the stuff you describe i've never seen in any pro match... at least my situation is a realistic situation which happens the majority of games between macro terran versus an aggressive zerg player (the players who make it super hard for terran to split the map).
zerg will almost always have more infestors than terran has ghosts... this is a big part of the matchup. zerg will have more bases = more gas and faster production. terran can't exactly switch all of his rax onto tech labs and half his marine production on a whim. EMP on infestors is useless unless they're clumped up.
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On February 15 2012 18:59 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases? Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability. So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors. The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign. Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away.
I think we will see more of this, but the range of HSM is the big problem. Infestors can sit behind BLs and still stop the incoming suicide bombs (ravens). Also, splitting BLs is not illegal, they have to do it in PvZ because of vortex. So I don't think a zerg with decent micro should lose their BLs to HSM.
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On February 15 2012 19:03 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:04 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. Can we get some more GREAT examples of how ghosts is OP?
The MVP vs Nestea Final only showed it's a bad idea to max on Brood Lords when your opponent has 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts.
It would be equal to sending 50 roaches into 20+ 3/3 siege tanks protected by PFs, that doesn't make the Siege Tank overpowered, it makes the decision for Zerg to send those Roaches in there a bad decision, just like how Nestea made a mistake sending all those Brood Lords straight into 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts.
If MVP had the resources from those Ghosts put into Vikings/Thors/Marines or heck just Nukes, the outcome would've been the same. Snipe didn't make or break that game.
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Somebody know the impact of the ghost change on the hots's units? Maybe blizzard wanted to prepare the futur of starcraft 2?
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EPT
