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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 15 2012 05:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:05 mlspmatt wrote:I see strange tendency in blizzard patching: it seems like they don't want any unit except marine-marauders be the pillars of terran gameplay which is just hella annoying.
I find this irritating as well. Terran takes a lot of flack for sticking to Bio play, but all too often when Terrans start implementing other units, Blizzard nurfs them. Blizzard are telling Terran to stick with Bio. Terrans have shown willingness to innovate, bur Blizzard tells them to "Get back in the Sandbox." you are confusing "innovate" with "explore". Most of the nerfs are from beta and early days. I mean, you seriously can't think about the reaper or the tanknerf when talking about stopping innovation. it pretty much comes down to ghost, thor, hellion, when you talk about those nerfs. not to mention that bio got nerfed as well (stim, bunker, rax) and other things got buffed so you can be more innovative (raven, BC) so clearly no, blizzard absolutly hasn't specifically nerfed terran nonbio.
So blizzard nurfed a number of terran attempts to innovate, which you call "Exploring," you can call it moon jumping if you want but it's the same thing. Thorzain didn't "Explore" Thors when he used them vs MC. Slayers didn't "Explore" Blue Hellions when they INNOVATED the build. And terrans aren't "Exploring" Ghosts, they're using them in Late game TvZ.
And yeah, Blizzard buffed Seeker missle and gave BC's a small speed buff, both of which are never used.
It's funny, you characterize terrans use of Thors, Blue Hellions, and ghosts, as "Exploring", even though they are proven, in game builds. And you characterize the BC and Raven buffs as possible "Innovations" even though they are rarely ever seen.
Maybe your using a different dictionary than i am.
And I would suggest Blizzard HAS in fact nurfed Non-Bio. The nurfs to Terran Bio have been minor, minor changes, with little impact on the game. The kind of nurfs meant to change as little as possible.
But the changes to NonBio have been game altering changes. The Thor nurf all but removed Thors as a viable TvP unit. The Blue flame hellon nurf eliminated the possibility of 2 shotting drones which made the build irrelevant. And the ghost nurf threatens to change the way ghosts are used in TvZ.
So yes. Blizzard has in fact Nerfed NonBio for all practicle purposes.
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On February 15 2012 06:15 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:46 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 05:05 mlspmatt wrote:I see strange tendency in blizzard patching: it seems like they don't want any unit except marine-marauders be the pillars of terran gameplay which is just hella annoying.
I find this irritating as well. Terran takes a lot of flack for sticking to Bio play, but all too often when Terrans start implementing other units, Blizzard nurfs them. Blizzard are telling Terran to stick with Bio. Terrans have shown willingness to innovate, bur Blizzard tells them to "Get back in the Sandbox." you are confusing "innovate" with "explore". Most of the nerfs are from beta and early days. I mean, you seriously can't think about the reaper or the tanknerf when talking about stopping innovation. it pretty much comes down to ghost, thor, hellion, when you talk about those nerfs. not to mention that bio got nerfed as well (stim, bunker, rax) and other things got buffed so you can be more innovative (raven, BC) so clearly no, blizzard absolutly hasn't specifically nerfed terran nonbio. So blizzard nurfed a number of terran attempts to innovate, which you call "Exploring," you can call it moon jumping if you want but it's the same thing. Thorzain didn't "Explore" Thors when he used them vs MC. Slayers didn't "Explore" Blue Hellions when they INNOVATED the build. And terrans aren't "Exploring" Ghosts, they're using them in Late game TvZ. And yeah, Blizzard buffed Seeker missle and gave BC's a small speed buff, both of which are never used. It's funny, you characterize terrans use of Thors, Blue Hellions, and ghosts, as "Exploring", even though they are proven, in game builds. And you characterize the BC and Raven buffs as possible "Innovations" even though they are rarely ever seen. Maybe your using a different dictionary than i am.
what... those 3 are the ones I said that your argument of "stopping innovation comes down to".
and you still see hellions and ghosts in all MUs, thors in vZ and vT.
and yes they buffed cruisers and ravens, BECAUSE they are not used a lot. That is the purpose of a buff.
what do you want? getting the units buffed that you already use? that would work against innovation.
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stupid question - but will this patch hit with the new season? or later
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On February 15 2012 06:37 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote:
stupid question - but will this patch hit with the new season? or later
later. it's not been tested on PTR yet and most people that I heard of and that matter disagree with the scale of the ghostchange already...
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I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway.
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On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway.
I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart.
Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready.
And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources.
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On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway.
2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:32 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 15 2012 04:50 Whitewing wrote:
We're talking about BC's as a late game transition when you're looking at a 4+ base situation for terran, not as something you get early. If you don't have +3 air weapons at that point, I'm confused as to how you're still alive vs. toss. Obviously we're not suggesting you get BC's early on in the match: but when the game goes on for a while and both players have hit that point where they aren't sure how and when to attack, and are constantly jostling for position, getting BC's while doing drops is perfect. No. Battlecruisers are absolute garbage, and Terran doesn't have the gas to spare to get air upgrades. Stop trying to get him into feeding you easy wins after you spam feedback on them and win. Actually, terran does get air weapons(and, at least if you're Kas, air armour after that) against protoss so your vikings can take down colossi quickly. I mean, BCs still aren't good against protoss, but they will have at least weapon upgrades.
Watch any late game TvP in the GSL: any of them that get past the 3 base mark have the terran getting air upgrades. We've seen some games that go past the half hour mark with terrans switching into BC's because they force a certain composition from protoss, and they're inefficient for the Protoss anti-ground army to deal with. Protoss can't afford to throw away probes like terran can throw away scvs in the late game (MULES), so Terran can add in a few special units that take advantage of the army comp of Protoss. If you think terrans can't afford air weapons upgrades, you're talking out your ass.
A really good example is Ryung vs. Tassadar, was a very back and forth and close game, Ryung eventually took it, and he used a battlecruiser transition in the game to give his army the edge it needed.
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On February 15 2012 07:41 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:32 Elyvilon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 15 2012 04:50 Whitewing wrote:
We're talking about BC's as a late game transition when you're looking at a 4+ base situation for terran, not as something you get early. If you don't have +3 air weapons at that point, I'm confused as to how you're still alive vs. toss. Obviously we're not suggesting you get BC's early on in the match: but when the game goes on for a while and both players have hit that point where they aren't sure how and when to attack, and are constantly jostling for position, getting BC's while doing drops is perfect. No. Battlecruisers are absolute garbage, and Terran doesn't have the gas to spare to get air upgrades. Stop trying to get him into feeding you easy wins after you spam feedback on them and win. Actually, terran does get air weapons(and, at least if you're Kas, air armour after that) against protoss so your vikings can take down colossi quickly. I mean, BCs still aren't good against protoss, but they will have at least weapon upgrades. Watch any late game TvP in the GSL: any of them that get past the 3 base mark have the terran getting air upgrades. We've seen some games that go past the half hour mark with terrans switching into BC's because they force a certain composition from protoss, and they're inefficient for the Protoss anti-ground army to deal with. Protoss can't afford to throw away probes like terran can throw away scvs in the late game (MULES), so Terran can add in a few special units that take advantage of the army comp of Protoss. If you think terrans can't afford air weapons upgrades, you're talking out your ass. A really good example is Ryung vs. Tassadar, was a very back and forth and close game, Ryung eventually took it, and he used a battlecruiser transition in the game to give his army the edge it needed.
Or you can look up Empire.Happy vs Tod game where Happy managed to throw away huge lead by going battlecruisers.
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Turning on Beastyqt's stream - he's playing Protoss
Startale_Rainbow - Zerg
Who will be next after the patch? xD
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On February 15 2012 07:27 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart. Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready. And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources.
I don't know who said that, but I was mentioning that they got buffs, because someone else was saying that blizzard exclusivly cared for the useability of Marine/Marauder when it comes down to patching Terran.
also on Raven "not good" (and TvZ lategame unwinable for Terran because gas is not spendable and there are no good tech units etc...): ask Jinro. post 9 in the link.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310650
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not sure how the pheonix buff will go, i doubt it's gonna make any changes to the matchup as the requirement of the fleet becon upgrade is too much of a commitment
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On February 15 2012 07:50 Zeetox wrote:
Turning on Beastyqt's stream - he's playing Protoss
Startale_Rainbow - Zerg
Who will be next after the patch? xD
turning on both streams, rainbow plays T, beasty just went offline.
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On February 15 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:27 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart. Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready. And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources. I don't know who said that, but I was mentioning that they got buffs, because someone else was saying that blizzard exclusivly cared for the useability of Marine/Marauder when it comes down to patching Terran. also on Raven "not good" (and TvZ lategame unwinable for Terran because gas is not spendable and there are no good tech units etc...): ask Jinro. post 5 in the link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310650
Wow I did not realize terrans were already experimenting with ravens are w/e. I knew they would be good tvz but that was just my theory didn't know it was already proven xD.
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On February 15 2012 08:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 07:27 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart. Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready. And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources. I don't know who said that, but I was mentioning that they got buffs, because someone else was saying that blizzard exclusivly cared for the useability of Marine/Marauder when it comes down to patching Terran. also on Raven "not good" (and TvZ lategame unwinable for Terran because gas is not spendable and there are no good tech units etc...): ask Jinro. post 5 in the link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310650 Wow I did not realize terrans were already experimenting with ravens are w/e. I knew they would be good tvz but that was just my theory didn't know it was already proven xD.
i think that jinro post was taken out of context...
every time i've watched jinro's stream he's been complaining about zerg being broken (rage after losing)
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On February 15 2012 08:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 07:27 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart. Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready. And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources. I don't know who said that, but I was mentioning that they got buffs, because someone else was saying that blizzard exclusivly cared for the useability of Marine/Marauder when it comes down to patching Terran. also on Raven "not good" (and TvZ lategame unwinable for Terran because gas is not spendable and there are no good tech units etc...): ask Jinro. post 5 in the link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310650 Wow I did not realize terrans were already experimenting with ravens are w/e. I knew they would be good tvz but that was just my theory didn't know it was already proven xD.
didnt you see the morrow vs leenock series? made maxed BL/Corruptor/Infestor look like a bunch of hydralisks ;-)
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No more Ghost rush builds in TvT. Sad. 
Not that it was a particularly good or often used strategy, but it was fun to pull out from time to time.
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On February 15 2012 08:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 08:03 blade55555 wrote:On February 15 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 07:27 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. I've toyed around with Raven Mech + Vikings + Ravens is kinda good even though fungal could potentially still rip you apart. Ravens with Bio just doesn't really work though. Raven spell cost more then spell of well every other caster so i've you get Ravens get them early else you can't use them since you have to wait for ages to the spells to be ready. And the sad part even with the Corvid Reactor it still takes forever for HSM to be ready. And to the guy who said well Ravens and BC's got a buff use them. Yeah they got a buff from absolutely useless to here and there is an opening where they might have a use . Still doesn't make them actually good just not totally wasted resources. I don't know who said that, but I was mentioning that they got buffs, because someone else was saying that blizzard exclusivly cared for the useability of Marine/Marauder when it comes down to patching Terran. also on Raven "not good" (and TvZ lategame unwinable for Terran because gas is not spendable and there are no good tech units etc...): ask Jinro. post 5 in the link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310650 Wow I did not realize terrans were already experimenting with ravens are w/e. I knew they would be good tvz but that was just my theory didn't know it was already proven xD. didnt you see the morrow vs leenock series? made maxed BL/Corruptor/Infestor look like a bunch of hydralisks ;-)
leenock never seen raven or nuke before, give him a break.
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If you are going to cite a game. Be damn sure they don't do something stupid to lose.
QXC uses ghosts in TvT, and it is actually pretty damn good. Saw him take down I think Nada on his stream the other day. Ghosts are like the infestor, if you know how to use them, they are absolutely impossible to stop.
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EPT
