|
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
The more I think about it the more I disagree with the snipe nerf.
Okay snipe is really good against BL, Ultra, and infester. I think that's certainly an important issue as it was incredibly limiting to Zerg lategame once ghosts are out. That's a serious problem. Like if it worked on ultras really well and then terrans used nukes to deal with broods I think that would be awesome. That sounds fun.
But +psionic is strange. They already have emp so it's practically redundant. And redundancy in caster spells is heinous game design. Like qxc was saying, It had other cool uses against mutas and banes and such. There's no need to take that kind of thing out. In fact it makes no sense. It just seems like there are much better ways to fix the issue.
But seriously change the cost of ghosts. It's just weird to have a caster be a mineral heavy unit, especially when terrans don't use their gas enough already.
|
On February 15 2012 03:14 DoubleReed wrote:
The more I think about it the more I disagree with the snipe nerf.
Okay snipe is really good against BL, Ultra, and infester. I think that's certainly an important issue as it was incredibly limiting to Zerg lategame once ghosts are out. That's a serious problem. Like if it worked on ultras really well and then terrans used nukes to deal with broods I think that would be awesome. That sounds fun.
But +psionic is strange. They already have emp so it's practically redundant. And redundancy is caster spells is heinous game design. Like qxc was saying, It had other cool uses against mutas and banes and such. There's no need to take that kind of thing out. In fact it makes no sense.
But seriously change the cost of ghosts. It's just weird to have a caster be a mineral heavy unit, especially when terrans don't use their gas enough already.
Thank you for posting maybe a good solution to the ghost issue not trying to tell me (a terran) how to play and I should L2P differently.
On a sad note: the considerations in this forum (only some) that might have a solution to the issue rather than nerfing a late game of a race, will ultimately be ignored by Browder because he can care less what other people think and will do what he wants anyways.
|
On February 15 2012 03:01 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:52 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 02:34 xUnSeEnx wrote:On February 15 2012 00:12 ToastieNL wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Yes OMG! This bothers me so much! Zerg doesn't adapt to Ghost Snipe, so it get's Patched out. No Zerg even tried, they just got more broodlord/infestor and expected to win! Spoiler: Dialogue of a random Zerg vs me, happend a couple of times: + Show Spoiler +Z: Omg, snipe kills my T3 units. Well, better make more of them?
Me: U can counter mass Ghost with Ling/Baneling.
Z: But than Terran gets Tanks OMFGIMBA
Me: Well, Tanks need to be sieged and Ghost are slow. How about Drop/Nydus.
Z: Lolno so expensive/so microintensive/takes so long/troll u dont understand Zerg
Blizzard: Aw poor Zergie, you so sad, let me help you. You want an auto- win button too? sure, We'll get it for you! We call it an Infestor and if you make them, you can auto-win! You like that? Aw nice cutie Zergipergiee! Ahhhh he so adorable <3!
Z: yay Thanks god!
Me: But what about Terran?
Z: DUDE YOU ARE SO IMBALANCED WHEN I SELECT MY UNITS AND MOVE IN U SOMETIMES WIN AND NOT DIE AND THAN U ATTACK AND MOVE THOSE MARINES AND SIEGE TANKS AND GET MEDIVACS WHILE I SENT IN ALL MY UNITS AFTER EACH OTHAER, I EVEN RALLY THEM U KNOW SO HARD, AND U STILL WIN DUDE FUCKING IMBA!
Me: dafuq?
Z: troll u get nerfed, l2p noob!
Seriously bothers me! And it is ignorance like this that makes me frustrated like crap: On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. That's a bit easy to say, don't you think? That is pretty much the same as saying banshees are imbalanced because your Banelings can't kill them! Ghost are imbalanced because my Broodlord can't kill them. WELL, TRY SOMETHING ELSE?! Roach/Ling/Banelings with Nydus + drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ghost/Tank in a way you can't even imagine!! The that comes to mind, is basically, zerg and protoss players whine when they lost one time to a mass unit type play. They have no clear understanding of what terran has to do to win. (IF someone says 1+a+click I will scream because that is the most ignorant thing I have ever read previously). Terran HAS TO be the better player to win, there are no gimmicky styles (unless they all-in), they just straight up out-macro and out-micro. The problems we are seeing is, everyone screamed for terran to learn to play differently when emp was nerfed, why is it every god forsaken patch released we (terrans) have to learn to play differently? Why can't toss or zerg learn to play differently? (Done with the true but mean rant). I think players need to explore their options before an overall nerf to a race is even considered (I say nerf to a race, because a late game nerf is on grounds of a nerf to a race). you mean like zergs going baneling drops? nerfed. zergs going mass infestor mindcontrol? nerfed. zergs going fast upgrades and fast ultras? yeah, not nerfed. zergs going mutas against protoss? protoss buffed. zergs going double spire. not nerfed! and no, Terran does not need to more skill. there is zero evidence for that constant Terran claim. if anything, Terran has to spend the same amount of apm differently. Baneling drops still work? Infestor mind control nerfed? Needed
Baneling drops used to push away the units from the unload point and drop in the middle of them, now they drop on the outside of the opponents ball. If I want the banelings to attack from there, i really don't need the extra drop investment and OL risk for the sacrifice of going in at OL speed instead of banling speed... of course it still exists, after this patch you will also still be able to snipe...
yeah the infestor nerfs (fungal dmg, NP range) were needed, though I think that the NP nerf went too far, just like I think the ghostnerf is needed (this has nothing to do with the infestornerf) but the current proposal goes too far. but at least the ghost has a good chance of not being nerfed as hard, because every pro and most of the community is saying this goes to far and they should just slightly change the broodlord/ultralisk-ghost dynamic instead.
|
On February 15 2012 03:17 xUnSeEnx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:14 DoubleReed wrote:
The more I think about it the more I disagree with the snipe nerf.
Okay snipe is really good against BL, Ultra, and infester. I think that's certainly an important issue as it was incredibly limiting to Zerg lategame once ghosts are out. That's a serious problem. Like if it worked on ultras really well and then terrans used nukes to deal with broods I think that would be awesome. That sounds fun.
But +psionic is strange. They already have emp so it's practically redundant. And redundancy is caster spells is heinous game design. Like qxc was saying, It had other cool uses against mutas and banes and such. There's no need to take that kind of thing out. In fact it makes no sense.
But seriously change the cost of ghosts. It's just weird to have a caster be a mineral heavy unit, especially when terrans don't use their gas enough already. Thank you for posting maybe a good solution to the ghost issue not trying to tell me (a terran) how to play and I should L2P differently. On a sad note: the considerations in this forum (only some) that might have a solution to the issue rather than nerfing a late game of a race, will ultimately be ignored by Browder because he can care less what other people think and will do what he wants anyways.
hurrrr yes it's up to Browder to make all of the final balance decisions, and he makes them all based on personal preference. Good job, you figured it out.
|
Yea what if snipe only targeted ground units? Obviously ghost on muta wouldn't work, but who cares. Then ghosts can snipe ultras and nuke broodlords. Personally I think it's cool that you have a caster answer to ultras and I would prefer that not to go away. It's really the sniping of broodlords that seems unfair.
And you could even make a flavorful case for it because who the hell snipes flying things? Makes more sense than +psionic. Maybe he's using anti-psi shells or something???
|
Even if it was true, that the ghost is overpowered, terran is definately not. It's absolute nonsense to balance single units, you have to balance the races. And if Blizzard nerfs the Ghost, they have to give terran something else, or we'll get owned all over the place by zerg, as we are getting by protoss allready. TvZ is actually a very interesting and well balanced matchup, and normally the better player wins. If the Zerg makes big mistakes he loses, if the terran does, he loses and if both doesn't we have an interesting back and forward game.
Mass Ghost play can be dealt with. It might be not too easy, but guess what? It isn't easy to deal with infestor broodlord. Blizzard is going to ruin the next terran matchup. So better prepare some chrisp allins, or see you in diamond (to all master+ players). 
|
on another note, I would not even need any nerf on snipe, if some form of countermicro was available.
like imagine if a ghost shot would miss or do only half the damage if the targeted unit would change it's movement speed or movement path or wtf... burrow in between the time the ghost does his focus animation and the shot hits. (might need
a small projectile speed reducement and more obvious snipeanimation)
that would be areally nice change. hell they should even buff snipe, if I get the chance to actively reduce the damage significantly, but thereby have to use apm and maybe not attack at the fastest route.
|
On February 15 2012 03:32 DoubleReed wrote:
Yea what if snipe only targeted ground units? Obviously ghost on muta wouldn't work, but who cares. Then ghosts can snipe ultras and nuke broodlords.
Except nukes are not supposed to kill Broodlords, because, you know, they take 20 seconds to channel, which is more than enough time for Broodlords to go away from the area of effect, or simply kill the ghost?
|
On February 15 2012 03:44 TeeTS wrote:Mass Ghost play can be dealt with. It might be not too easy, but guess what? It isn't easy to deal with infestor broodlord. Blizzard is going to ruin the next terran matchup. So better prepare some chrisp allins, or see you in diamond (to all master+ players).
Lol yes, it's bizarre how good my ZvX matchups are compared to Terran, even though I main terran. Nobody has the skills to deal with Zerg drops, Why doesn't Zerg use those!?
Instead of instanerfs, how about forcing Zerg to use their shit and not just go ling infestor into broodlord infestor into 1agg
|
IMO the snipe nerf seems a bit too much. As a Zerg player I know how stupid mass ghosts is after Terran gets 4 bases secured. Zerg late game is amazing but Terran late late game is unbeatable. There are better options than what Blizzard is planning.
A 1 second cooldown (similar to queen transfuse) or an energy increase would probably give the same desired effect without making the ghost one of those units that people ever use again.
|
On February 15 2012 03:47 Big J wrote:
on another note, I would not even need any nerf on snipe, if some form of countermicro was available.
Like repeatedly moving forward single Infestors to cast Fungal on Ghosts so your Broodlords can kill them?
|
What's wrong with not allowing snipes on massive units? From a "flavour" perspective, sniping an ultralisk with Chitinous plating doesn't make any sense at all.
|
On February 15 2012 03:50 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:44 TeeTS wrote:Mass Ghost play can be dealt with. It might be not too easy, but guess what? It isn't easy to deal with infestor broodlord. Blizzard is going to ruin the next terran matchup. So better prepare some chrisp allins, or see you in diamond (to all master+ players). Lol yes, it's bizarre how good my ZvX matchups are compared to Terran, even though I main terran. Nobody has the skills to deal with Zerg drops, Why doesn't Zerg use those!? Instead of instanerfs, how about forcing Zerg to use their shit and not just go ling infestor into broodlord infestor into 1agg
well, then I'm allowed to say (which is equally bullsit): raven, battlecruiser, banshee, landed vikings, speedreapers... why dont I see more of them?
|
On February 15 2012 03:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:32 DoubleReed wrote:
Yea what if snipe only targeted ground units? Obviously ghost on muta wouldn't work, but who cares. Then ghosts can snipe ultras and nuke broodlords. Except nukes are not supposed to kill Broodlords, because, you know, they take 20 seconds to channel, which is more than enough time for Broodlords to go away from the area of effect, or simply kill the ghost?
The point of the patch is to make ghost weaker against broodlords. BLs are very slow and highly positional. Pushing their attack back is not to be underestimated. It would be like nuke v tank. Even you don't kill them, you could force them into a bad position. Not to mention you can use more than one nuke.
|
United States13143 Posts
On February 15 2012 04:00 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:49 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:32 DoubleReed wrote:
Yea what if snipe only targeted ground units? Obviously ghost on muta wouldn't work, but who cares. Then ghosts can snipe ultras and nuke broodlords. Except nukes are not supposed to kill Broodlords, because, you know, they take 20 seconds to channel, which is more than enough time for Broodlords to go away from the area of effect, or simply kill the ghost? The point of the patch is to make ghost weaker against broodlords. BLs are very slow and highly positional. Pushing their attack back is not to be underestimated. It would be like nuke v tank. Even you don't kill them, you could force them into a bad position.
Except almost no one uses nukes vs tanks. Hell, I've seen more ravens vs tanks at pro-level play than I have nukes vs tanks.
|
On February 15 2012 03:08 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:04 Sovern wrote:
What I dont understand is why the hell terrans tier 3 is so immobile compared to toss's and zerg's. Thors and BC's are way too immobile. If blizzard implemented upgrades that made terrans mid game units reliable in the late game than teching past siege tanks would be useful in tvz and even tvp.
Siege tanks should have an upgrade that increases their damage vs bio by around +5-7 (on the armory or possibly another building that requires and armory to have already been built) and thors should have an upgrade that allows strike cannons to be targetable on air units to so that we have more units than just the ghost to deal with both toss's late game and zerg's late game.
This would also make the other races have to react to us if we get these late game oriented upgrades that are meant to deal with late game chargelots and speedling/roach armys. Tanks are fine. Thors are still shit. Work with that.
Tanks are still shit TvP. Chargelots hard counter tanks. Tanks should have an upgrade that greatly increases their effectiveness vs mineral only bio units such as zealots/roachs/zerglings. Right now late game tvz tanks arent as effective as they ae throughout the mid game and in TvP they're useless due to zealots being too beefy for a mineral only unit.
If tanks had an upgrade that allowed them to do +5 to +7 damage that required some new factory facility than we'd see more diverse play in all TvX matchups due to mech actually being viable and mid game units such as tanks/thors actually being good late game units with the new upgrades.
|
On February 15 2012 04:02 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:00 DoubleReed wrote:On February 15 2012 03:49 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:32 DoubleReed wrote:
Yea what if snipe only targeted ground units? Obviously ghost on muta wouldn't work, but who cares. Then ghosts can snipe ultras and nuke broodlords. Except nukes are not supposed to kill Broodlords, because, you know, they take 20 seconds to channel, which is more than enough time for Broodlords to go away from the area of effect, or simply kill the ghost? The point of the patch is to make ghost weaker against broodlords. BLs are very slow and highly positional. Pushing their attack back is not to be underestimated. It would be like nuke v tank. Even you don't kill them, you could force them into a bad position. Except almost no one uses nukes vs tanks. Hell, I've seen more ravens vs tanks at pro-level play than I have nukes vs tanks.
So? Are you saying it can't work? Or just that it's not typically done?
Ravens could work too. I don't really care. Nukes and HSM are obviously for positional advantages. They just come from different tech options. What are you even arguing?
|
The main beef I have with the Snipe change is how they are implementing it.
They clearly state they are changing it due to TvZ lategame against Brood Lords and Ultras.
However, rather than reducing the damage dealt to Massive units (Brood Lords and Ultras are the only Biological Massive units and thus the only Massive units that can be sniped anyway) they completely bork the ability and add a rather useless bonus against casters.
We already have an anti-caster spell, namely EMP.
Even if Snipe was stronger against single casters, very very rarely do you truly see every single caster properly spread out, save for early Sentry defense on the ramp of your main or nat, so you want to EMP anyway to drain the energy from multiple casters.
Two EMPs can effectively take out multiple casters from an engagement, as they can't do anything without energy.
It doesn't kill them, but if you win the engagement, your army itself will take care of that.
For me it feels like Blizzard looked purely at the MVP vs Nestea game at the Blizzcon finals and decided Snipe needed a nerf because Nestea decided that when Terran has 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts, it's time to build Brood Lords.
|
On February 15 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%? Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money?  No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly
only draining energy. Every energy point drained is effectively 3 hp healed. If you drain 100 points from a medivac you not only deal 100 damage, but also negate 300 hp of heals from the stims to come and other damage in future.
You seem to forget about the damaging part.... the part that completely elimnates threats like: Banshee, BC, Thor, Raven...
God forbid theres ONE unit that can defend itself from it
And after ghosts have been drained or failed their emps or whatever, they dont have an fairly awesome panic/recycle skill called Power Overwhelming.
Actually nerfing the damage of feedback by 50% sounds about fair. No reason it should deal so much damage to already gimped units like thor and bc
|
United States13143 Posts
On February 15 2012 04:05 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:02 Elyvilon wrote:On February 15 2012 04:00 DoubleReed wrote:On February 15 2012 03:49 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:32 DoubleReed wrote:
Yea what if snipe only targeted ground units? Obviously ghost on muta wouldn't work, but who cares. Then ghosts can snipe ultras and nuke broodlords. Except nukes are not supposed to kill Broodlords, because, you know, they take 20 seconds to channel, which is more than enough time for Broodlords to go away from the area of effect, or simply kill the ghost? The point of the patch is to make ghost weaker against broodlords. BLs are very slow and highly positional. Pushing their attack back is not to be underestimated. It would be like nuke v tank. Even you don't kill them, you could force them into a bad position. Except almost no one uses nukes vs tanks. Hell, I've seen more ravens vs tanks at pro-level play than I have nukes vs tanks. So? Are you saying it can't work? Or just that it's not typically done? Ravens could work too. I don't really care. Nukes and HSM are obviously for positional advantages. They just come from different tech options. What are you even arguing?
Your argument was, "well it's like this other thing." I was pointing out that no one does the other thing, so being like it is not a particularly useful point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
