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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke.
So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too!  )
The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right?
Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race?
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On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. 2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out (trust me, Terrans will find a way to bounce back) because of how multi-faceted they were. I feel that ghosts- like all units- should play more of a niche role in a unit composition instead of a panacea.
I disagree with 1)
I absolutly don't see a zerg being able to attack and only somewhat efficiently trade with an even supply Terran with spread, sieged tanks with bio support on Antiga middle or on daybreak 4th base with planetary or on cloud kingdom middle high ground without massive broodlord usage.
Maybe I'm too focused on winning by engaging, but in the end I think there have to be ways to deal with an army, or the game will will degenerate to a baserace game.
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On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race?
Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ?
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On February 15 2012 01:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. 2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out (trust me, Terrans will find a way to bounce back) because of how multi-faceted they were. I feel that ghosts- like all units- should play more of a niche role in a unit composition instead of a panacea. I disagree with 1) I absolutly don't see a zerg being able to attack and only somewhat efficiently trade with an even supply Terran with spread, sieged tanks with bio support on Antiga middle or on daybreak 4th base with planetary or on cloud kingdom middle high ground without massive broodlord usage. Maybe I'm too focused on winning by engaging, but in the end I think there have to be ways to deal with an army, or the game will will degenerate to a baserace game.
I think if a 200 supply army of Zerg crashes with a fully sieged and spread 200 supply army of Terran (or Protoss, for that matter), the Zerg is supposed to lose. I think the defensive posture that the other two races can take sacrifices mobility for turtling power. But during that time, Zerg can fly around, pick off units and structures, nydus, doom drop, and do many other forms of harrassment that make it impossible for Terran to reinforce after that army. And of course, Zerg has 50 larvae waiting to re-max, and so when it's time to actually engage (and those tanks need to unsiege at some point!), then Zerg can spring the trap, surround, and all that good stuff. I think it takes more strategy and less 1Aing.
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my 2 cents is that no race is supposed to have a significant advantage at any major portion of the game. there can be small timing windows when investing into tech, and that is natural, but there should not be a common perception that early game T is incredibly strong or Z t3 ends the game if it gets to that point.
Also, you're not supposed to attack into well-positioned sieged tanks and win.
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On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ?
I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game.
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On February 15 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:41 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. 2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out (trust me, Terrans will find a way to bounce back) because of how multi-faceted they were. I feel that ghosts- like all units- should play more of a niche role in a unit composition instead of a panacea. I disagree with 1) I absolutly don't see a zerg being able to attack and only somewhat efficiently trade with an even supply Terran with spread, sieged tanks with bio support on Antiga middle or on daybreak 4th base with planetary or on cloud kingdom middle high ground without massive broodlord usage. Maybe I'm too focused on winning by engaging, but in the end I think there have to be ways to deal with an army, or the game will will degenerate to a baserace game. I think if a 200 supply army of Zerg crashes with a fully sieged and spread 200 supply army of Terran (or Protoss, for that matter), the Zerg is supposed to lose. I think the defensive posture that the other two races can take sacrifices mobility for turtling power. But during that time, Zerg can fly around, pick off units and structures, nydus, doom drop, and do many other forms of harrassment that make it impossible for Terran to reinforce after that army. And of course, Zerg has 50 larvae waiting to re-max, and so when it's time to actually engage (and those tanks need to unsiege at some point!), then Zerg can spring the trap, surround, and all that good stuff. I think it takes more strategy and less 1Aing.
Than ur wrong because the Zergarmy with Broodlord Infestor wins that, AND has the best reinforcement capabilities AND requires the least micro of any end- game comp.
Zerg the new BW Protoss EZ race?
For funsies, I just played Zerg myself. Srsly! I beat my Masters Terran friend just with getting 3 spines at the beginning and 4 queens and make lots of drops endgame. So happy :D:D
Though, this makes me want to switch. I understand why there's so many TvZ atm and so little TvT; Zerg is fucking easy! Srsly! Try Terran all you zergies and I'll laugh at you struggling even vs Silver Zergs ^^!
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With "Pro Level" play in mind, when do you see Ghosts? Not when you see infestors, but when you see hive being built. The siege tank for the most part is the main anti infestor unit of the current meta game. weather or not it's the best choice is not what i'm stating, but from what we see in pro level play. currently a mass 20+ ghost style is mainly used in super late game vs a mass corruptor, bl, infestor army. The main role of the ghost isn't actually to snipe broodlords and ultralisks, it's actually to snipe corruptors so that vikings can have their way with the broodlords. The way this nerf will affect damage to the corruptors just makes me think that the meta game will shift more to just building no more than 1-2 ghosts if even at all, and investing that gas into starport tech/upgrades. The only way i can think of a terran even being able to deal with a bl/infestor/corruptor army post patch will be with some sort of mass viking/raven marine tank, strategy. with some SUPER EPIC HSM's, however a tech switch to mass ground based roach/ultra will just completely annihilate you which was why the ghost was the main choice as it wasn't marked useless against the tech switch as the mass vikings are. I think we will see a lot more of all in based play to end games earlier because most pro's won't want to balance their wins around landing hsm's. we shall see
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On February 15 2012 01:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ? I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game.
Well, don't u think terrans will have bigger problems dealing with zerg late game now, than what zergs did with mass ghosts?
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On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...]
So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%?
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On February 15 2012 01:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ? I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game.
But the next patch means it is. Once greater spire pops, you box all untis and SCVs and 1a. If you don't win instantly; just leave.
As, with next patch, you ARE going to die against Broodlord Infestor, and if not, against the coinflip followup. THAT is the flawed design he means. Btw, the timer isnt 40 minutes, it's at about 20-25 minutes. THat's why Terran all- ins so much, which will stop working once Zergs learns to defend it and after that the entire game balance swings to 70% Zerg, as it already is in any region except for Professional (not even GM) Korea.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:16 TheTurk wrote:
This is the only patch I have ever 100% agreed with.
This is incredible.
Awesome work, Blizzard.
Mad respect. <3
Let me guess you play protoss.
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On February 15 2012 01:56 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ? I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game. Well, don't u think terrans will have bigger problems dealing with zerg late game now, than what zergs did with mass ghosts?
Well the nerf is pretty much exclusive to late game TvZ, so Terrans will definitely need to either make more ghosts to counter the same type of attack, or come up with additional responses to complement their previous compositions.
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On February 15 2012 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 01:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:
[quote]
AGAIN!
Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ? I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game. Well, don't u think terrans will have bigger problems dealing with zerg late game now, than what zergs did with mass ghosts? Well the nerf is pretty much exclusive to late game TvZ, so Terrans will definitely need to either make more ghosts to counter the same type of attack, or come up with additional responses to complement their previous compositions.
Yes, Lategame TvZ, as in, making it unplayable probably. More ghost won't work as a remax on Ultralisk OWNS depleted Ghost. Additional responses don't work as you can't queue before you see the eggs pop, in which case you have 1 round of production to defend against a remax from Zerg.
You can't queue faster as Vikings suck vs Ultras and Marauders aren't paticularly good vs Broodlords.
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On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%?
Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money? 
No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly
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On February 15 2012 02:01 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:56 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 01:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ? I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game. Well, don't u think terrans will have bigger problems dealing with zerg late game now, than what zergs did with mass ghosts? Well the nerf is pretty much exclusive to late game TvZ, so Terrans will definitely need to either make more ghosts to counter the same type of attack, or come up with additional responses to complement their previous compositions. Yes, Lategame TvZ, as in, making it unplayable probably. More ghost won't work as a remax on Ultralisk OWNS depleted Ghost. Additional responses don't work as you can't queue before you see the eggs pop, in which case you have 1 round of production to defend against a remax from Zerg. You can't queue faster as Vikings suck vs Ultras and Marauders aren't paticularly good vs Broodlords.
So what do you think is a viable solution?
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On February 15 2012 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Well the nerf is pretty much exclusive to late game TvZ, so Terrans will definitely need to either make more ghosts to counter the same type of attack, or come up with additional responses to complement their previous compositions.
I don't think you get the problem. You cannot really answer Snipe losing 20 damages on Broodlords with “more Ghosts”. The more Ghosts you have, the harder it is to use them to full potential, because meanwhile death is raining from Broodlords, and some Ghosts will simply die without having the time to use all their Snipes, or any Snipe at all actually. Past a certain point, it is simply impossible to micro all of them efficiently, so there is quite some waste in large Ghosts squads. Besides, having more than 20-25 Ghosts will be detrimental to your balance army, so building more Ghosts is not even the solution.
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On February 15 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:41 Big J wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:21 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. I think you need glasses then, my friend. Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented. And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.> AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced! No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!? Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me. Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors. Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings). The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg. Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance. The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness). Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. 2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out (trust me, Terrans will find a way to bounce back) because of how multi-faceted they were. I feel that ghosts- like all units- should play more of a niche role in a unit composition instead of a panacea. I disagree with 1) I absolutly don't see a zerg being able to attack and only somewhat efficiently trade with an even supply Terran with spread, sieged tanks with bio support on Antiga middle or on daybreak 4th base with planetary or on cloud kingdom middle high ground without massive broodlord usage. Maybe I'm too focused on winning by engaging, but in the end I think there have to be ways to deal with an army, or the game will will degenerate to a baserace game. I think if a 200 supply army of Zerg crashes with a fully sieged and spread 200 supply army of Terran (or Protoss, for that matter), the Zerg is supposed to lose. I think the defensive posture that the other two races can take sacrifices mobility for turtling power. But during that time, Zerg can fly around, pick off units and structures, nydus, doom drop, and do many other forms of harrassment that make it impossible for Terran to reinforce after that army. And of course, Zerg has 50 larvae waiting to re-max, and so when it's time to actually engage (and those tanks need to unsiege at some point!), then Zerg can spring the trap, surround, and all that good stuff. I think it takes more strategy and less 1Aing.
then i guess I interpreted 1) wrong, because it sounded like zerg could actually engage a Terran with a non T3 composition.
and well, I do agree with that. yet I do believe that if I go as immobile as Terran with T3 broodlords, I should be allowed to have a fair chance of beating a Terran army if I control properly.
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On February 15 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%? Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money? No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly
wtf ghosts already cost 200/100, one of the most expensive units in the game per supply... surely you're trolling.
to answer your question about what i meant about races having a 'progressive' option, i mean an option which is going to lead to a more entertaining and deep game... as in NOT 'lolz make vikings and a-move!'.
And 'for what it's worth', ghost already lost emp strength and radius. you're silly.
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On February 15 2012 02:10 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%? Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money? No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly wtf ghosts already cost 200/100, one of the most expensive units in the game per supply... surely you're trolling.to answer your question about what i meant about races having a 'progressive' option, i mean an option which is going to lead to a more entertaining and deep game... as in NOT 'lolz make vikings and a-move!'. And 'for what it's worth', ghost already lost emp strength and radius. you're silly.
Hi, I play Protoss. Nearly every one of my units cost the same amount- or more than- ghosts. I remember a time when spellcasters used to actually cost gas. Do you remember that time? Remember the ghost cost buff from 150/150 to 200/100? Darn The ghosts don't really need to cost twice as much as they do now, but they are relatively lower tech and immediately useful compared to other spellcasters.
I think races can be entertaining depending on how players (e.g. Kiwikaki) strategize and use their units and spells. I don't think such things are restricted to early vs. mid vs. late game either. I think the game is still going to progress greatly in that respect.
Anyways, I have to go. Please don't write off the new patch just yet ^^ It's just day one.
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EPT
