On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
First off, no they weren't. 5 games is not enough to say it's OP. And when even MVP can lose w/ 50+ ghosts it's not unbeatable. Second, terran doesn't necessaily want to mass ghosts late game, but it's the only option against the fast tech switches of zerg in late game. Also terran's T3 is much weaker in late game TvZ.
5 games? Try not just one player's success in one recent match, but other tournament and high-level ladder matches as well. This has been talked about for months, at least since EMP had been labeled an issue in TvP.
And since emp nerf, TvP late game has been labeled as an issue.
Actually, the argument that the final battle of TvP was very one-sided (in either direction) had long preceded the nerf. And if TvP late game was an issue, it hasn't been because of ghosts not being helpful. The way to counter the nerf is by making a few more ghosts, and you can blanket the same amount of area. The radius nerf wasn't an issue. Ghosts weren't even being used enough anyway... not to mention this topic is a red herring on your part. I'm talking about how long ago TvZ late game ghost problems had been listed as an issue, not that ghosts do too much or too little against Protoss.
On February 15 2012 00:52 Narw wrote: The ammount of crying about snipe nerf is pathetic. Telling that tech switch to ling/baneling counters late game terran is i dont even know what. Zerg go BL/Infestor couse nothing else stand a chance against properly positioned terran that decides to split map. That means we have there 3/3 Marines and tanks that are +3. That means that zerg ground army MELTS when it tries to breach the line. Thats why we have a T3 siege type unit called Broodlord which takes ages to get and requires heavy infestor support. This late game siege type unit DOSNT work as it's supposed to work (according to me and more important Blizzard) when terran incorporates ghosts (which have way more uses then just sniping you know?!).
Ling/bane/roach was suggested for the situations where theres about no other units than ghosts, and yes, it works then.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
First off, no they weren't. 5 games is not enough to say it's OP. And when even MVP can lose w/ 50+ ghosts it's not unbeatable. Second, terran doesn't necessaily want to mass ghosts late game, but it's the only option against the fast tech switches of zerg in late game. Also terran's T3 is much weaker in late game TvZ.
5 games? Try not just one player's success in one recent match, but other tournament and high-level ladder matches as well. This has been talked about for months, at least since EMP had been labeled an issue in TvP.
And since emp nerf, TvP late game has been labeled as an issue.
Actually, the argument that the final battle of TvP was very one-sided (in either direction) had long preceded the nerf. And if TvP late game was an issue, it hasn't been because of ghosts not being helpful. The way to counter the nerf is by making a few more ghosts, and you can blanket the same amount of area. The radius nerf wasn't an issue. Ghosts weren't even being used enough anyway... not to mention this topic is a red herring on your part. I'm talking about how long ago TvZ late game ghost problems had been listed as an issue, not that ghosts do too much or too little against Protoss.
As far as I'm concerned, the main problem with TvP endgame is that if terran win a battle, we can't really do anything since protoss immediately warp in 15 chargelots and kill the weakened terran army if we try to attack immediately, but if protoss wins they can warp in the same 15 chargelots and, at the very least, kill a base or two with their army remnants plus warpins.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me.
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg.
Heh good to see the incredibly blind zerg must win bias is still as strong as ever here.
The one comptetent leg T had to stand on to compete with Z tech switches and the glorious BL/C/Infestor D-ball (not to mention the fact that zerg could just stop building t3 and swamp t going mass ghost) is now being taken away. (obv simplifying things here but still the idea stands I think)
I am frankly stunned and slightly depressed that they havnt realised that they need to strenghthen Z & poss P early game and strenghten T late game to give a fair fight throught the game. It cannot be a coincidence that more and more Ts are trying to avoid late game against both z/p (if it was ever any different).
HoTs cannot come fast enough for me and I really hope they think things through a bit more clearly with the bigger picture and not just look at overall win percentages and the 90% zerg playbase whining cause they cannot win with whatever they want to everytime (see the Glorious BL/C/I ball).
I dunno, just some thoughts of mine. Maybe i'm wrong and top Ts will adapt and be fine whilst us lower down just resort to allining to finish the game before 15 mins or whatever.
I'm not biased towards Zerg. Zerg isn't even my main race. I'm impartial to that race.
And there are issues with the ghost and how multi-faceted it is against Zerg late game units, which you're ignoring... so we should be strengthening early game Zerg, where ghosts don't even exist? Do we really want zergling/ baneling or roach all-ins to be stronger? I don't know how a Terran feels about that, but I play Protoss and I don't need stronger Zerg all-ins against my FFE thank you very much. ZvP is already ridiculously one-sided as it is (check out the stats). Terran has a winning record against both races, but Zerg has such a giant win ratio against Protoss this month that it puts Zerg ahead of Terran overall in the graphs. That's scary. And even though Protoss is consistently the weakest race, I don't think we need any notable buffs. I think we're learning to improve, although I guess the phoenix upgrade to help deal with mass muta is nice (although I don't know why it's on the fleet beacon... I'd prefer it locked on the cybernetics core until a stargate is built).
HotS should be interesting, but that will throw everything completely off balance and so I'm not really worrying about that at the moment.
On February 15 2012 00:52 Narw wrote: The ammount of crying about snipe nerf is pathetic. Telling that tech switch to ling/baneling counters late game terran is i dont even know what. Zerg go BL/Infestor couse nothing else stand a chance against properly positioned terran that decides to split map. That means we have there 3/3 Marines and tanks that are +3. That means that zerg ground army MELTS when it tries to breach the line. Thats why we have a T3 siege type unit called Broodlord which takes ages to get and requires heavy infestor support. This late game siege type unit DOSNT work as it's supposed to work (according to me and more important Blizzard) when terran incorporates ghosts (which have way more uses then just sniping you know?!).
Ling/bane/roach was suggested for the situations where theres about no other units than ghosts, and yes, it works then.
On February 15 2012 00:52 Narw wrote: The ammount of crying about snipe nerf is pathetic. Telling that tech switch to ling/baneling counters late game terran is i dont even know what. Zerg go BL/Infestor couse nothing else stand a chance against properly positioned terran that decides to split map. That means we have there 3/3 Marines and tanks that are +3. That means that zerg ground army MELTS when it tries to breach the line. Thats why we have a T3 siege type unit called Broodlord which takes ages to get and requires heavy infestor support. This late game siege type unit DOSNT work as it's supposed to work (according to me and more important Blizzard) when terran incorporates ghosts (which have way more uses then just sniping you know?!).
didnt you hear them? when he has siege tanks and marines and possibly thors, you should just go roach baneling, because then mass ghost will not kill you. and how to go roach/baneling? you just use the infinite money you always have as zerg to get drops and nydus, throw away the supply you have to attack buildings and then techswitch into units that you upgraded all game long with your secret third "just in case I need to go roach"-evo chamber. (dont forget to use some of your infinite early and midgame money to spend on those upgrades early enough). little tip between us zergs: if you offrace a lot with terran those things will become much clearer to you.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
First off, no they weren't. 5 games is not enough to say it's OP. And when even MVP can lose w/ 50+ ghosts it's not unbeatable. Second, terran doesn't necessaily want to mass ghosts late game, but it's the only option against the fast tech switches of zerg in late game. Also terran's T3 is much weaker in late game TvZ.
5 games? Try not just one player's success in one recent match, but other tournament and high-level ladder matches as well. This has been talked about for months, at least since EMP had been labeled an issue in TvP.
And since emp nerf, TvP late game has been labeled as an issue.
Actually, the argument that the final battle of TvP was very one-sided (in either direction) had long preceded the nerf. And if TvP late game was an issue, it hasn't been because of ghosts not being helpful. The way to counter the nerf is by making a few more ghosts, and you can blanket the same amount of area. The radius nerf wasn't an issue. Ghosts weren't even being used enough anyway... not to mention this topic is a red herring on your part. I'm talking about how long ago TvZ late game ghost problems had been listed as an issue, not that ghosts do too much or too little against Protoss.
As far as I'm concerned, the main problem with TvP endgame is that if terran win a battle, we can't really do anything since protoss immediately warp in 15 chargelots and kill the weakened terran army if we try to attack immediately, but if protoss wins they can warp in the same 15 chargelots and, at the very least, kill a base or two with their army remnants plus warpins.
While it's true that Protoss can warp-in a single round immediately as back up (which means it will be used for harrassment or for defense during a big engagement, not both), do recognize that warpgates do need to cooldown afterwards. Warping in 10-15 gateway units against a bio ball is going to actually do absolutely nothing against a little micro, because the only attacking units being warped in are primarily zealots and stalkers. We can't warp in storms, you're probably going to have at least two medivacs (which means your army is healing, believe it or not), and tier one Terran rips apart small Protoss armies to the point where it's very tough for Protoss to get back on its feet again. In other words, if one race (Terran or Protoss) decisively wins the final big engagement, they're going to win the game. Their army isn't going to get whittled down by a few rounds of reinforcements, whether they're warped in 10 seconds sooner or whether they come out of barracks 10 seconds later. And while I don't exactly like the one-sidedness of the final battle, I think it's rather fair for both sides.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
First off, no they weren't. 5 games is not enough to say it's OP. And when even MVP can lose w/ 50+ ghosts it's not unbeatable. Second, terran doesn't necessaily want to mass ghosts late game, but it's the only option against the fast tech switches of zerg in late game. Also terran's T3 is much weaker in late game TvZ.
5 games? Try not just one player's success in one recent match, but other tournament and high-level ladder matches as well. This has been talked about for months, at least since EMP had been labeled an issue in TvP.
And since emp nerf, TvP late game has been labeled as an issue.
Actually, the argument that the final battle of TvP was very one-sided (in either direction) had long preceded the nerf. And if TvP late game was an issue, it hasn't been because of ghosts not being helpful. The way to counter the nerf is by making a few more ghosts, and you can blanket the same amount of area. The radius nerf wasn't an issue. Ghosts weren't even being used enough anyway... not to mention this topic is a red herring on your part. I'm talking about how long ago TvZ late game ghost problems had been listed as an issue, not that ghosts do too much or too little against Protoss.
So what do u think that terran should use vs zerg deathballs instead? Also, since so many zerg try to tell terrans to use BCs and ravens now (even though it's been shown that they're pretty bad). Did zergs even try ling/bane/roach vs mass ghosts?
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me.
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg.
Heh good to see the incredibly blind zerg must win bias is still as strong as ever here.
The one comptetent leg T had to stand on to compete with Z tech switches and the glorious BL/C/Infestor D-ball (not to mention the fact that zerg could just stop building t3 and swamp t going mass ghost) is now being taken away. (obv simplifying things here but still the idea stands I think)
I am frankly stunned and slightly depressed that they havnt realised that they need to strenghthen Z & poss P early game and strenghten T late game to give a fair fight throught the game. It cannot be a coincidence that more and more Ts are trying to avoid late game against both z/p (if it was ever any different).
HoTs cannot come fast enough for me and I really hope they think things through a bit more clearly with the bigger picture and not just look at overall win percentages and the 90% zerg playbase whining cause they cannot win with whatever they want to everytime (see the Glorious BL/C/I ball).
I dunno, just some thoughts of mine. Maybe i'm wrong and top Ts will adapt and be fine whilst us lower down just resort to allining to finish the game before 15 mins or whatever.
I'm not biased towards Zerg. Zerg isn't even my main race. I'm impartial to that race.
And there are issues with the ghost and how multi-faceted it is against Zerg late game units, which you're ignoring... so we should be strengthening early game Zerg, where ghosts don't even exist? Do we really want zergling/ baneling or roach all-ins to be stronger? I don't know how a Terran feels about that, but I play Protoss and I don't need stronger Zerg all-ins against my FFE thank you very much. ZvP is already ridiculously one-sided as it is (check out the stats). Terran has a winning record against both races, but Zerg has such a giant win ratio against Protoss this month that it puts Zerg ahead of Terran overall in the graphs. That's scary. And even though Protoss is consistently the weakest race, I don't think we need any notable buffs. I think we're learning to improve, although I guess the phoenix upgrade to help deal with mass muta is nice (although I don't know why it's on the fleet beacon... I'd prefer it locked on the cybernetics core until a stargate is built).
HotS should be interesting, but that will throw everything completely off balance and so I'm not really worrying about that at the moment.
that's funny.... squeezing in the irrelevant "protoss is consistently the weakest" argument. which btw is a load of baloney. perhaps the most 1-dimensional, but that 1-dimension is that it's a rediculously strong mid-late game deathball push that can usually deal enough damage to grant a free win in the late game.
every race should have at least one viable progressive option at every stage of the game. at the moment none of the races have this. terran late game is non existant, protoss early game is non existant and zerg mid game is non existant.
that's why the "lets nerf terran late game" decision is a pile of steaming poop.
On February 15 2012 01:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Warping in 10-15 gateway units against a bio ball is going to actually do absolutely nothing against a little micro, because the only attacking units being warped in are primarily zealots and stalkers.
WHAT!?
If you've ever played an endgame tvp fight you'd know that "all" the terran has once the fight is over is badly damaged bio, and I guarantee you sir that chargelots work wonders against those.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me.
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg.
Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance.
The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness).
Responding to your two points:
1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed.
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out (trust me, Terrans will find a way to bounce back) because of how multi-faceted they were. I feel that ghosts- like all units- should play more of a niche role in a unit composition instead of a panacea.
On February 15 2012 01:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Warping in 10-15 gateway units against a bio ball is going to actually do absolutely nothing against a little micro, because the only attacking units being warped in are primarily zealots and stalkers.
WHAT!?
If you've ever played an endgame tvp fight you'd know that "all" the terran has once the fight is over is badly damaged bio, and I guarantee you sir that chargelots work wonders against those.
With no medivacs, no micro, and no wedging between buildings, I suppose so.
What league are you talking about? I was talking about a higher league where balance can honestly be discussed.
Yes, it'd be terrible if Zerg had to do something else than wait on 3 base, get broodlord infestor and just 1a to victory. Thats no fun for the zerg....
And even though Protoss is consistently the weakest race, I don't think we need any notable buffs. I think we're learning to improve, although I guess the phoenix upgrade to help deal with mass muta is nice (although I don't know why it's on the fleet beacon... I'd prefer it locked on the cybernetics core until a stargate is built).
HotS should be interesting, but that will throw everything completely off balance and so I'm not really worrying about that at the moment.
Just to jump on the phoenix change and why its not on the cybercore. It would be to expensive there and would probably take years to finish. Even zerg would have huge issues against range 6 phoenix in the early game in terms of overlord sniping. But especially terran that only has range 5 anti air at their disposal would have problems defending medivacs,ravens or banshees. Even now if the air units aren't directly above the marines, they will get sniped by a phoenix fly by only getting a bit of shield damage. Thats why it can't be accessible early or cheap. Of course a thor and to some extend vikings could solve the problem, but it would really delay the terran if they wanted to do any kind of push. And they would have to defend their base, while the toss could do what they want.
So it is a nice idea to put it to fleet beacon, you pay alot and have to wait long as well, but it unlocks other techs as well. And early game mutas are no problem for +1 attack and +1 shield phoenix (+1 shield since canons, stalkers and phoenix benefit against mutas, for the price of 50/50 more). The mass muta cloud is a problem, and until then the fleet beacon and research is through anyway. So i really like their choice as there could also emerge some other playstyles from it. But the phoenix change is the only one i like anyway.
Snipe change, okay won't bother me at least. (maybe a bit as zerg, since it was funny and relaxing to fight against mass ghosts) Gold change, i really hope tournaments won't put golds back into their tournaments now, or toss would have a problem again.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me.
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg.
Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance.
The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness).
Responding to your two points:
1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed.
Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never...
Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke.
On February 15 2012 01:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Warping in 10-15 gateway units against a bio ball is going to actually do absolutely nothing against a little micro, because the only attacking units being warped in are primarily zealots and stalkers.
WHAT!?
If you've ever played an endgame tvp fight you'd know that "all" the terran has once the fight is over is badly damaged bio, and I guarantee you sir that chargelots work wonders against those.
With no medivacs, no micro, and no wedging between buildings, I suppose so.
What league are you talking about? I was talking about a higher league where balance can honestly be discussed.
Kas actually wins this game, but I feel if he had ever lost a battle in the endgame, even if it was like the fifth or the sixth one, he would've lost the game.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me.
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg.
Heh good to see the incredibly blind zerg must win bias is still as strong as ever here.
The one comptetent leg T had to stand on to compete with Z tech switches and the glorious BL/C/Infestor D-ball (not to mention the fact that zerg could just stop building t3 and swamp t going mass ghost) is now being taken away. (obv simplifying things here but still the idea stands I think)
I am frankly stunned and slightly depressed that they havnt realised that they need to strenghthen Z & poss P early game and strenghten T late game to give a fair fight throught the game. It cannot be a coincidence that more and more Ts are trying to avoid late game against both z/p (if it was ever any different).
HoTs cannot come fast enough for me and I really hope they think things through a bit more clearly with the bigger picture and not just look at overall win percentages and the 90% zerg playbase whining cause they cannot win with whatever they want to everytime (see the Glorious BL/C/I ball).
I dunno, just some thoughts of mine. Maybe i'm wrong and top Ts will adapt and be fine whilst us lower down just resort to allining to finish the game before 15 mins or whatever.
I'm not biased towards Zerg. Zerg isn't even my main race. I'm impartial to that race.
And there are issues with the ghost and how multi-faceted it is against Zerg late game units, which you're ignoring... so we should be strengthening early game Zerg, where ghosts don't even exist? Do we really want zergling/ baneling or roach all-ins to be stronger? I don't know how a Terran feels about that, but I play Protoss and I don't need stronger Zerg all-ins against my FFE thank you very much. ZvP is already ridiculously one-sided as it is (check out the stats). Terran has a winning record against both races, but Zerg has such a giant win ratio against Protoss this month that it puts Zerg ahead of Terran overall in the graphs. That's scary. And even though Protoss is consistently the weakest race, I don't think we need any notable buffs. I think we're learning to improve, although I guess the phoenix upgrade to help deal with mass muta is nice (although I don't know why it's on the fleet beacon... I'd prefer it locked on the cybernetics core until a stargate is built).
HotS should be interesting, but that will throw everything completely off balance and so I'm not really worrying about that at the moment.
that's funny.... squeezing in the irrelevant "protoss is consistently the weakest" argument. which btw is a load of baloney. perhaps the most 1-dimensional, but that 1-dimension is that it's a rediculously strong mid-late game deathball push that can usually deal enough damage to grant a free win in the late game.
every race should have at least one viable progressive option at every stage of the game. at the moment none of the races have this. terran late game is non existant, protoss early game is non existant and zerg mid game is non existant.
that's why the "lets nerf terran late game" decision is a pile of steaming poop.
I was simply using the statistics and data collected over months of research (and posted every month on TL) to make statements directly responding to his comments about whether or not to buff early game Zerg and Protoss. So irrelevant? No. Wrong? Certainly not as well.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by a progressive option at every stage of the game? I don't understand what you mean by this terminology.
On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote: All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches.
I think you need glasses then, my friend.
Ghosts were wrecking all late game Zerg units, and countless TvZ games showed this. Even David Kim (who is reluctant to make any statements on balance) was forced to admit it this, and so the patch was implemented.
And for crying out loud, ghosts are tier three? They're practically free compared to other race's true late tier units (not to mention you get them rather quickly), so don't complain about not having late game options. And you aren't the only race that needs to micro >.>
AGAIN! Why do you STAND on using your lategame units if a techswitch back deals with everything Terran has? Srsly? I don't get it! I can do that too. Roaches are arguably close to Ghost in tech level (in your way of seeing Ghost). Roaches deal with Terrans lategame units (BC/Thor, BC kills to slow, Thor is pathetic). Roaches need a nerf? Another example; Corruptor counters the entire Terran fleet except for Raven + Viking in equal numbers (=more expensive). Corruptor imbalanced!
No, in that situation, Terran is demanded not to get Thor/air vs Corruptors/Roaches. Why doesn't the same mechanism apply to Zerg, whose techswitches are WAY EASIER!?
Give me 5 games of Zergs switching to Roach/Ling/Baneling in the lategame and drop all over the map and lose because of Ghost/Tanks. You can 1a into unsieged Terrans and Terran can't move around to defend your drop. Give me 5 games which are about equal in the lategame (a small advantage for Zerg is fine too) and in which Zerg goies Roach/Ling/Bane + drop/Nydus and stands NO chance. Show me Zerg tried. Just show me.
Really, corruptors are imbalanced in ZvT when they can only shoot air and have one of the worst secondary spells in the game? Yeah okay, I forgot that Terrans no longer can make marines, marauders, ghosts, and tanks... and just completely ignore the corruptors.
Anyway, the point is having a good unit composition, and in late game, the Terran ghost was too good against all of the late game transitions. Whether you were teching to brood lords or ultralisks or infestors was irrelevant because 12 ghosts still meant the Zerg would get sniped or EMPed away (and note that Terran still had 120 supply available for his continuous stream of normal marine, marauder, medivac, and some tanks and vikings).
The ghost was too multi-faceted. It didn't fill a niche like most other units. It was a "If I build this then I'll pretty much be in good shape against everything late game" unit. It was too easy of a solution to Zerg.
Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance.
The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too; - Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that. - Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness).
Responding to your two points:
1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed.
Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never...
Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke.
Exactly this (in my opinion).
Why should Z and P get to build whatever they like Tier 3 and otherwise whereas T keeps getting constantly shafted (eg. Thor, ghost, etc) while having arguably the most useless - outside of ffa/team games - higher tech units. (admittedly we could look at the poor old carrier here but...)
If we can't have BCs and Ravens why should zergs get BL's as well as having its only real counter taken away i might add!?
I would bet my ass that, in the current state of things, Ravens/Bcs/thors will never be the answer.
EPT
