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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 15 2012 02:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:10 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%?  Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money?  No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly wtf ghosts already cost 200/100, one of the most expensive units in the game per supply... surely you're trolling.to answer your question about what i meant about races having a 'progressive' option, i mean an option which is going to lead to a more entertaining and deep game... as in NOT 'lolz make vikings and a-move!'. And 'for what it's worth', ghost already lost emp strength and radius. you're silly. Hi, I play Protoss. Nearly every one of my units cost the same amount- or more than- ghosts. I remember a time when spellcasters used to actually cost gas. Do you remember that time? Remember the ghost cost buff from 150/150 to 200/100? Darn The ghosts don't really need to cost twice as much as they do now, but they are relatively lower tech and immediately useful compared to other spellcasters. I think races can be entertaining depending on how players (e.g. Kiwikaki) strategize and use their units and spells. I don't think such things are restricted to early vs. mid vs. late game either. I think the game is still going to progress greatly in that respect. Anyways, I have to go. Please don't write off the new patch just yet ^^ It's just day one.
Couple things wrong with this. First off, yes you play protoss, your units are MEANT to be the most expensive in the game. Thats just stupid logic. A zealot costs twice the amount of a marine because it comes with over 3x the health and almost 2x the DPS. You're acting as though you're simply using more resources for the same quality of units. Protoss units are really fucking expensive because they're really fucking good.
And just to clarify, the ghost cost change from 150/150 to 200/100 is most certainly not a buff, its a nerf. Lets be real here for a second. Whereas the other two races rely a lot on gas (protoss moreso obvs), terran is a very mineral-heavy race. Having that extra cost for minerals, while technically lowering the overall price of a ghost (since 50 gas is definitely worth more than 50 minerals), actually causes the ghost to be harder to afford. How many games have you seen where Terran DOESN'T have gas to burn in the lategame? Thus, the limiting factor will always be minerals. Because of this, getting ghosts out at the pace you would like becomes more difficult, so the change is obviously a nerf.
The old cost made it easier to afford them when you wanted to... Believe me I wish it was the previous cost, but I'm sure you'd still argue that they're simply too cheap that way, just like you do now us Terrans just can't seem to win these kinds of arguments against zerg or protoss, even if things change they'll just find new things they feel are too OP/cheap/eZ/broken in the Terran arsenal and Blizz will respond post-haste with a 50% decrease of damage/HP/dps/armor/whatever the whine concerns.
EDIT: I guess my real argument is that... Yeah maybe snipe was a bit too strong. MAYBE. But even if it WAS too strong, a 45% decrease in dmg is the response from blizzard?? Are you fucking serious? Like they can't even take babysteps on this shit. They just immediately go the extra mile. The worst part is I assume this was done on purpose to scare the living shit out of Terran players, so that a more reasonable compromise can be made, and also to justify making any change in the first place.
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On February 14 2012 18:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:06 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 14 2012 18:01 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 17:50 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 14 2012 17:42 Thrombozyt wrote:
Suggested changes to make the BC useful:
- Can move while shooting
- Can utilize air-to-ground and air-to-air batteries simultaneously
Optional: Upon research of the behemoth reactor, the BC gains 1 extra dmg.
Those first two are actually really good ideas. what lol? The second one is like the most superbroken thing in the world. "Hey, we thought the second highest dps unit in the game doesn't have enough dps, so we changed it that it deals now +75% damage in most realistic scenarios. "In our next patch we will experiment with hydra range a little bit because it could be higher. We thought about 20." Yeah but have you looked at its DPS for cost? BCs need some kind of buff, they're almost as unused as carriers in high level play. No, because it is an endgame unit. You have to look at its dps per supply as well as the supply cap is one of the most limiting factors at that time. (and you want supplyefficient armies at that time... noone cares about the roach being one of the most costefficient units if you fight 200 vs 200 with it) Also the dps is not the only great thing about the cruiser. 3armor and 550HP as an air unit, that's beefier than an ultralisk. Then add Yamato Canon... There is a reason why a lot of people go mass BC in noncompetetive areas: it's already the best unit in the game statswise and can only be beaten by 1unit per race. If you make the BC only some kind of costefficient as well, you just give Terran an ultimate goal: "get 20cruiser, lift your buildings and you win". I guess the air/ground simultanous attack would not change that BCs could get countered by Corruptor/Voidray/Viking, but it would just make going battlecruise so costefficient, that anytime an opponent uses ground, you would just go BC. If he goes air as well, the costefficieny of the BC investment would go through the roof. If he stays ground... mass BCs and win.
This might work in lower level leagues but is not doable in higher level play for reasons already discussed adnausaum.
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On February 15 2012 00:12 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Yes OMG! This bothers me so much! Zerg doesn't adapt to Ghost Snipe, so it get's Patched out. No Zerg even tried, they just got more broodlord/infestor and expected to win! Spoiler: Dialogue of a random Zerg vs me, happend a couple of times: + Show Spoiler +Z: Omg, snipe kills my T3 units. Well, better make more of them?
Me: U can counter mass Ghost with Ling/Baneling.
Z: But than Terran gets Tanks OMFGIMBA
Me: Well, Tanks need to be sieged and Ghost are slow. How about Drop/Nydus.
Z: Lolno so expensive/so microintensive/takes so long/troll u dont understand Zerg
Blizzard: Aw poor Zergie, you so sad, let me help you. You want an auto- win button too? sure, We'll get it for you! We call it an Infestor and if you make them, you can auto-win! You like that? Aw nice cutie Zergipergiee! Ahhhh he so adorable <3!
Z: yay Thanks god!
Me: But what about Terran?
Z: DUDE YOU ARE SO IMBALANCED WHEN I SELECT MY UNITS AND MOVE IN U SOMETIMES WIN AND NOT DIE AND THAN U ATTACK AND MOVE THOSE MARINES AND SIEGE TANKS AND GET MEDIVACS WHILE I SENT IN ALL MY UNITS AFTER EACH OTHAER, I EVEN RALLY THEM U KNOW SO HARD, AND U STILL WIN DUDE FUCKING IMBA!
Me: dafuq?
Z: troll u get nerfed, l2p noob!
Seriously bothers me! And it is ignorance like this that makes me frustrated like crap: Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. That's a bit easy to say, don't you think? That is pretty much the same as saying banshees are imbalanced because your Banelings can't kill them! Ghost are imbalanced because my Broodlord can't kill them. WELL, TRY SOMETHING ELSE?! Roach/Ling/Banelings with Nydus + drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ghost/Tank in a way you can't even imagine!!
The that comes to mind, is basically, zerg and protoss players whine when they lost one time to a mass unit type play. They have no clear understanding of what terran has to do to win. (IF someone says 1+a+click I will scream because that is the most ignorant thing I have ever read previously). Terran HAS TO be the better player to win, there are no gimmicky styles (unless they all-in), they just straight up out-macro and out-micro. The problems we are seeing is, everyone screamed for terran to learn to play differently when emp was nerfed, why is it every god forsaken patch released we (terrans) have to learn to play differently? Why can't toss or zerg learn to play differently? (Done with the true but mean rant).
I think players need to explore their options before an overall nerf to a race is even considered (I say nerf to a race, because a late game nerf is on grounds of a nerf to a race).
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On February 15 2012 02:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:01 ToastieNL wrote:On February 15 2012 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:56 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 01:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:41 s3rp wrote:On February 15 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 01:31 shadymmj wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 ToastieNL wrote:
[quote]
Seriously, you didn't notice I was writing in Zerg logic? I'm not even sure if arguing with you is worth the effort, but I;ll give you a chance.
The Ghosts problem is that it is to much of a catch- all unit. It counters 'all lategame tech for Zerg', as in, Broodlords, Ultralisk, Infestor. This is true. I agree. There are, however, 2 points I don't agree too;
- Zerg is forced to go T3 tech to fight in this game. In lategame Terran is spread out enough to use drops and lower tech, high speed armies to abuse slow Ghost. YOu can go for Zergling/Baneling/Roach lategame, because the counter to those is Tanks; slow, immobile, and not able to defend all bases from Drops. Why not use that tactic, you can easilly techswitch too it, with 7 hatcheries and 70 Larvae. Why don't you try that.
- Isn't the Infestor the same kind of unit? Infestor counters Marines/Marauders/Reapers (lol)/Vikings/Banshee/Battlecruiser/Thor. It's weak against Ghost and Sieged Tanks. That's it. nerf infestor? Infestor can only be defeated with good micro, just as ghost are weak against really good positioning (Spores/Overseers and map awareness).
Responding to your two points: 1. I agree with you that Zerg isn't always forced to go tier three units in the late game (let alone stick with tier three units all the time- fast transitions with saved larvae are certainly an asset to Zerg), but it does seem that all hive tech is essentially shut down simply by having a good number of ghosts out on the field. I don't think that the proper solution would be to accept that Zerg should never go infestors or ultralisks or brood lords if ghosts are indeed too strong, and instead focus on tier one and two units (because keep in mind, Terran can still make 120 supply worth of stuff that deals with zerglings, roaches, and mutalisks). I just don't think it's constructive to end the conversation at "Well then Zerg, just don't make half your tech tree", and I feel that that's what a lot of people are saying should happen instead of ghosts being nerfed. Good points, but now let's talk about situations when Terran should invest in their t3 units - Ravens (for their SPELLS!) and BCs. Oh wait, never... Zerg t3 is currently broken against ghosts yes, but Terran t3 is always broke. So what do you think a solution would be to this? Buff the raven and battlecruiser so that they're used more frequently and succesfully? (Carrier too! ) The problem I foresee with that is that Terran already has a winning record against Zerg (and they pretty much always have winning records against both other races in general) and so should we then nerf the Terran's early game to try to even out the Terran's strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, we don't want to make every minute of the game advantageous for Terran, right? Or, in general, some parts of the game (early, middle, late) are *tough* for certain races to get through. Can we make it easier for that race without making them overpowered? Do we need to make it easier for that race? Because it's flawed design if you reach a certain point and you can basically leave the game ? I'm not sure which of my questions your comment was a response to, but I don't think any race is so explicitly imbalanced that the opponent knows to just leave the game because he has no chance of winning, despite there never being a single attack; there must have been some engagements and decisions that worked out favorably for one player and terribly for the other. Those decisions and actions affected the rest of the game. It's simply not the case that choosing to play Race X against Race Y means that you can leave the game once you hit the 40 minute mark because it's literally impossible to win in the late game. Well, don't u think terrans will have bigger problems dealing with zerg late game now, than what zergs did with mass ghosts? Well the nerf is pretty much exclusive to late game TvZ, so Terrans will definitely need to either make more ghosts to counter the same type of attack, or come up with additional responses to complement their previous compositions. Yes, Lategame TvZ, as in, making it unplayable probably. More ghost won't work as a remax on Ultralisk OWNS depleted Ghost. Additional responses don't work as you can't queue before you see the eggs pop, in which case you have 1 round of production to defend against a remax from Zerg. You can't queue faster as Vikings suck vs Ultras and Marauders aren't paticularly good vs Broodlords. So what do you think is a viable solution?
Revert the ghost nerf?
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For those even talking about battlecrusier viability vs P/Z.
Yes BC look good on paper with high HP/armor and dps BUT it will NEVER happen as feedback and neural parasite exist.
I play toss and this is still so obvious...
Same reasons carriers can never be mainstream in pvz.
I really hate that blizz ruined NP in that MU. They should have left its range nine and kept massive units immune.
At least then it could be used against tanks, immortals and archons. Now we will never see it in games (unless you are snagging a momma ship) just more of an ability that exists that keeps T/P from experimenting with their capital ships.
In a sense they are doing the same to snipe this patch. Sure snipe is a problem BUT they are making snipe redundant in the sense that it will only be good against other casters (plus to pysonic) which overlaps with EMP too much....
Sad to see diversity/creativity leave the game and units get piegonholed into roles.....
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Can't believe they will really go through with this.
I have been lamenting this for a while, but I think I will end up switching main races. Maybe go back to Random like I use to, or play Z or P. Still unsure... I love T and all (from BW too  ), but trying to play it at a high level really is quite demanding and recently feels out of reach.
I really don't like the late game at all, vs P, and lately Z.
I think Blizzard needs to realize the Ghost was supposed to be a BL counter (...it was on that unit page where it stated get ghosts to counter BLs, basically, hosted by a Blizzard website -.-), and that it's not the only unit that counters T3 units. Queens especially are super effective with these T3 units, assuming they don't get EMP'd or Sniped to death (but this still limits the use of ghost to take out such an useful unit). Imagine if the Queens don't die--- then you have an extremely powerful T3 Zerg army.
High Templars basically shuts down the use of Thors, Ravens, BCs (though not entirely), but I don't see them doing anything like maybe changing feedback to not damage mechanical units, or at least suffer 1/2 the damage.
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On February 15 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%? Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money? No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly
I love this.. you realize, that EMP never ever ever kills its target? Most of the time, feedback on the target would result in way more damage than the shield-removal effect.
I also love, that you completely ignore the damage inflicted ("only draining the energy") while bringing a medivac instantly into the red hp where the first dmg tick of a stom pops it is certainly no effect at all.
But that shield removal from EMP.... gosh.. that's so sick.. kill my protoss every time..
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On February 15 2012 02:34 xUnSeEnx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:12 ToastieNL wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Yes OMG! This bothers me so much! Zerg doesn't adapt to Ghost Snipe, so it get's Patched out. No Zerg even tried, they just got more broodlord/infestor and expected to win! Spoiler: Dialogue of a random Zerg vs me, happend a couple of times: + Show Spoiler +Z: Omg, snipe kills my T3 units. Well, better make more of them?
Me: U can counter mass Ghost with Ling/Baneling.
Z: But than Terran gets Tanks OMFGIMBA
Me: Well, Tanks need to be sieged and Ghost are slow. How about Drop/Nydus.
Z: Lolno so expensive/so microintensive/takes so long/troll u dont understand Zerg
Blizzard: Aw poor Zergie, you so sad, let me help you. You want an auto- win button too? sure, We'll get it for you! We call it an Infestor and if you make them, you can auto-win! You like that? Aw nice cutie Zergipergiee! Ahhhh he so adorable <3!
Z: yay Thanks god!
Me: But what about Terran?
Z: DUDE YOU ARE SO IMBALANCED WHEN I SELECT MY UNITS AND MOVE IN U SOMETIMES WIN AND NOT DIE AND THAN U ATTACK AND MOVE THOSE MARINES AND SIEGE TANKS AND GET MEDIVACS WHILE I SENT IN ALL MY UNITS AFTER EACH OTHAER, I EVEN RALLY THEM U KNOW SO HARD, AND U STILL WIN DUDE FUCKING IMBA!
Me: dafuq?
Z: troll u get nerfed, l2p noob!
Seriously bothers me! And it is ignorance like this that makes me frustrated like crap: On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. That's a bit easy to say, don't you think? That is pretty much the same as saying banshees are imbalanced because your Banelings can't kill them! Ghost are imbalanced because my Broodlord can't kill them. WELL, TRY SOMETHING ELSE?! Roach/Ling/Banelings with Nydus + drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ghost/Tank in a way you can't even imagine!! The that comes to mind, is basically, zerg and protoss players whine when they lost one time to a mass unit type play. They have no clear understanding of what terran has to do to win. (IF someone says 1+a+click I will scream because that is the most ignorant thing I have ever read previously). Terran HAS TO be the better player to win, there are no gimmicky styles (unless they all-in), they just straight up out-macro and out-micro. The problems we are seeing is, everyone screamed for terran to learn to play differently when emp was nerfed, why is it every god forsaken patch released we (terrans) have to learn to play differently? Why can't toss or zerg learn to play differently? (Done with the true but mean rant). I think players need to explore their options before an overall nerf to a race is even considered (I say nerf to a race, because a late game nerf is on grounds of a nerf to a race).
you mean like zergs going baneling drops? nerfed. zergs going mass infestor mindcontrol? nerfed. zergs going fast upgrades and fast ultras? yeah, not nerfed. zergs going mutas against protoss? protoss buffed. zergs going double spire. not nerfed!
and no, Terran does not need to more skill. there is zero evidence for that constant Terran claim. if anything, Terran has to spend the same amount of apm differently.
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On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
All I see is this:
Blizzard: we need to break the game. Let's change ghosts. Terran really needs to have no t3 options whatsoever (excluding the occasional thor or two at most) in any matchup, because they can just keep microing their way to victory!
Terrans: wat.
Blizzard: but you can now do a teeny bit more damage to units that you don't even really care about sniping, because they're usually so balled up that EMP works better anyways!
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg.
I agree. But because that MVP player is so good, lets nurf marines/marauders/bunkers/vikings/thors/medvacs/ ..... and everything else MVP makes look OP.
We should also nurf blink stalkers cause MC is too good with them, and Mutas because DRG is too good with them, in fact, lets nurf every unit that some high level Korean makes look OP. Then the game would be balanced.
Only people who have no game understanding would cite that game as evidence of ghosts being imbalanced. Nestea, clearly frustrated, attacked a fortified Terran position with 15+ BL, a few lings, and no detection vs a brigade of cloaked ghosts and Vikings. Oh, and the Terran just happened to be pretty good to.
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On February 15 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 zimms wrote:On February 15 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[...]
2. Infestors did get nerfed, big time. High templar did get nerfed, big time. And of the three major spellcasters, ghosts were always the best. The EMP radius nerf was a nice start in TvP, and it was a nerf that the high templar had received long ago. Now I think it's time for this new ghost nerf to play out[...] So you suggest we also should nerf feedback for about 50%? Can we double the cost of ghosts so that they actually cost money? No one is complaining about feedback. Most of the time, feedback can't even kill off a unit (e.g. medivac drop); it ends up only draining the energy. And for what it's worth, high templar already lost its amulet and radius. You're silly
I heard a lot of compaints about EMP and EMP never kill any unit. Really strong argument.
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This thread really has become just a few people trying to convince the others that this ghost change is needed. Naturally they feel that ghosts are too good and the fact that a nerf in the past demands a nerf now for a different race.
KA - Was and will forever be broken due to the warp in mechanic. Being able to warp in several storms into combat is game breaking, as everyone knows that it really only takes two storms to win an engagement. I really won't say any more as the general masses have indeed agreed that KA was in fact a broken mechanic.
Infestors - They are the definition of the one units counters or is effective vs. all. Whether it is fungals or infested terran, there is a considerable use to infestors throughout the entire game, whether it is mid or late game, once you get them, the game immediately changes into a much more cautious move out for the opponent because it is no longer as simple as fighting on creep, it is one wrong move and a large portion of your army is lost. I am not going to debate this as overpowered because ultimately it is apparently a needed unit for zerg to win.
Ghost - I accepted the EMP nerf because it was indeed a little too good, because in a game of balance you have to understand when to get upset and rage on the forums or not, because if you lose it everytime, they either won't fix anything, or won't listen when it really matters. This snipe nerf would completely remove the ghost from the game. There would be no point in investing in the tech when it matters because of how little they actually counter. (They still make for EMP and killing infestors, I am talking about using them as a major army component.)
I was watching Incontrol's stream, and I have to say that without a doubt protoss and zerg casters are equally if not more overpowered than ghosts. The reason we don't see these is because terran aren't usually interesting in this tech because we know it isn't worth the time.
HT - They counter marine marauder with storm. Ghost, medivac, banshee, BC, Raven with Feedback. It is incredibly effective and I honestly don't know why every protoss is always trying to get that money storm, when without medivacs the Terran will simply die. The only reason I have seen this is because I am ahead, and those storms are the only thing keeping them in the game, where either I don't want to engage or I simply can't because he is trying to turtle. Protoss is probably the only race that can actually stay in the game with a serious disadvantage once they reach a certain tech. Again due to late game and insane colossus + HT armies it is next to impossible to actually kill a protoss.
Infestor - Really don't need to go into great detail because as we all know they have fungal which although it doesn't kill huge units very often, it does hold them in place causing other units to steam roll them. Infested terran are also an underused force on the ladder, although it is very effective when watching destiny or other zerg actually experiment with them.
Ghosts - They can EMP the entire protoss army, but you have to remember that they do no lasting damage, and as long as you have the ability to back up and regen shields, EMP doesn't actually kill you. Protoss units have a lot of health, and even when coated in EMP they can still fight with a deathball, simply because archons have 350 shields, and INSANE damage vs bio. (I forgot to mention HT can do their job, then make archons, I would trade ghost auto attack for that.) Snipe is a very good attack that is used to kill units from a great distance for nothing but energy, which causes the other races to watch how they attack into the terran army. (If a ghost can snipe you, you should probably be spamming Feedback instead of running away...just saying). Even if the ghost is overpowered, it is clear that 45 to 25 is unjustified and ultimately the point everyone is making.
Quite simply, a lot of the nerfs that have happened were justified, and as a terran I agree with a lot of them (blue flame, bunkers, etc.) What I can't wrap my head around is how many of the community seemed to think that this way an Ok change. I am fine with proposing changes that will ultimately help the game, but the blatant fact is that a very large chunk of the people who play, do not play at a level high enough to voice their opinion. Although this point will be argued endlessly, I feel like as top 25 masters NA player and someone who watched as least 4 hours of starcraft a day, I hope can at least see what I am trying to say.
Nerfs are good sometimes, but just because one race gets more than another, doesn't mean that that race will suck, it means they were too good in the past. Terran has been at fault, but honestly I don't see how terran win late game at this point, as protoss and zerg are only just starting to full develop their late game.
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On February 15 2012 02:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:34 xUnSeEnx wrote:On February 15 2012 00:12 ToastieNL wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Yes OMG! This bothers me so much! Zerg doesn't adapt to Ghost Snipe, so it get's Patched out. No Zerg even tried, they just got more broodlord/infestor and expected to win! Spoiler: Dialogue of a random Zerg vs me, happend a couple of times: + Show Spoiler +Z: Omg, snipe kills my T3 units. Well, better make more of them?
Me: U can counter mass Ghost with Ling/Baneling.
Z: But than Terran gets Tanks OMFGIMBA
Me: Well, Tanks need to be sieged and Ghost are slow. How about Drop/Nydus.
Z: Lolno so expensive/so microintensive/takes so long/troll u dont understand Zerg
Blizzard: Aw poor Zergie, you so sad, let me help you. You want an auto- win button too? sure, We'll get it for you! We call it an Infestor and if you make them, you can auto-win! You like that? Aw nice cutie Zergipergiee! Ahhhh he so adorable <3!
Z: yay Thanks god!
Me: But what about Terran?
Z: DUDE YOU ARE SO IMBALANCED WHEN I SELECT MY UNITS AND MOVE IN U SOMETIMES WIN AND NOT DIE AND THAN U ATTACK AND MOVE THOSE MARINES AND SIEGE TANKS AND GET MEDIVACS WHILE I SENT IN ALL MY UNITS AFTER EACH OTHAER, I EVEN RALLY THEM U KNOW SO HARD, AND U STILL WIN DUDE FUCKING IMBA!
Me: dafuq?
Z: troll u get nerfed, l2p noob!
Seriously bothers me! And it is ignorance like this that makes me frustrated like crap: On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:On February 14 2012 23:50 Honeybadger wrote:
I think the mule change is very fair. The ghost change is completely asinine and without any standing reason. Zergs playing badly does not justify balance patches. Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. That's a bit easy to say, don't you think? That is pretty much the same as saying banshees are imbalanced because your Banelings can't kill them! Ghost are imbalanced because my Broodlord can't kill them. WELL, TRY SOMETHING ELSE?! Roach/Ling/Banelings with Nydus + drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ghost/Tank in a way you can't even imagine!! The that comes to mind, is basically, zerg and protoss players whine when they lost one time to a mass unit type play. They have no clear understanding of what terran has to do to win. (IF someone says 1+a+click I will scream because that is the most ignorant thing I have ever read previously). Terran HAS TO be the better player to win, there are no gimmicky styles (unless they all-in), they just straight up out-macro and out-micro. The problems we are seeing is, everyone screamed for terran to learn to play differently when emp was nerfed, why is it every god forsaken patch released we (terrans) have to learn to play differently? Why can't toss or zerg learn to play differently? (Done with the true but mean rant). I think players need to explore their options before an overall nerf to a race is even considered (I say nerf to a race, because a late game nerf is on grounds of a nerf to a race). you mean like zergs going baneling drops? nerfed. zergs going mass infestor mindcontrol? nerfed. zergs going fast upgrades and fast ultras? yeah, not nerfed. zergs going mutas against protoss? protoss buffed. zergs going double spire. not nerfed! and no, Terran does not need to more skill. there is zero evidence for that constant Terran claim. if anything, Terran has to spend the same amount of apm differently.
Baneling drops still work?
Infestor mind control nerfed? Needed
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On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg.
Can't believe someone dares to use this terrible example. If attacking with 20+ Broodlords without any support (remember the Overseers having a lunch behind the fight?) into mass Cloaked Ghosts and Vikings is some kind of “proof” that “Ghosts need a nerf against Zerg,” I feel really sorry for you.
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What I dont understand is why the hell terrans tier 3 is so immobile compared to toss's and zerg's. Thors and BC's are way too immobile. If blizzard implemented upgrades that made terrans mid game units reliable in the late game than teching past siege tanks would be useful in tvz and even tvp.
Siege tanks should have an upgrade that increases their damage vs bio by around +5-7 (on the armory or possibly another building that requires and armory to have already been built) and thors should have an upgrade that allows strike cannons to be targetable on air units to so that we have more units than just the ghost to deal with both toss's late game and zerg's late game.
This would also make the other races have to react to us if we get these late game oriented upgrades that are meant to deal with late game chargelots and speedling/roach armys.
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On February 15 2012 03:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. Can't believe someone dares to use this terrible example. If attacking with 20+ Broodlords without any support (remember the Overseers having a lunch behind the fight?) into mass Cloaked Ghosts and Vikings is some kind of “proof” that “Ghosts need a nerf against Zerg,” I feel really sorry for you.
^^ This 1000X over
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On February 15 2012 03:04 Sovern wrote:
What I dont understand is why the hell terrans tier 3 is so immobile compared to toss's and zerg's. Thors and BC's are way too immobile. If blizzard implemented upgrades that made terrans mid game units reliable in the late game than teching past siege tanks would be useful in tvz and even tvp.
Siege tanks should have an upgrade that increases their damage vs bio by around +5-7 (on the armory or possibly another building that requires and armory to have already been built) and thors should have an upgrade that allows strike cannons to be targetable on air units to so that we have more units than just the ghost to deal with both toss's late game and zerg's late game.
This would also make the other races have to react to us if we get these late game oriented upgrades that are meant to deal with late game chargelots and speedling/roach armys.
Tanks are fine. Thors are still shit. Work with that.
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On February 15 2012 03:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. Can't believe someone dares to use this terrible example. If attacking with 20+ Broodlords without any support (remember the Overseers having a lunch behind the fight?) into mass Cloaked Ghosts and Vikings is some kind of “proof” that “Ghosts need a nerf against Zerg,” I feel really sorry for you.
Oh comeon.. Broodlords are T3 for christs sake!
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On February 15 2012 03:04 Sovern wrote:
What I dont understand is why the hell terrans tier 3 is so immobile compared to toss's and zerg's. Thors and BC's are way too immobile. If blizzard implemented upgrades that made terrans mid game units reliable in the late game than teching past siege tanks would be useful in tvz and even tvp.
Siege tanks should have an upgrade that increases their damage vs bio by around +5-7 (on the armory or possibly another building that requires and armory to have already been built) and thors should have an upgrade that allows strike cannons to be targetable on air units to so that we have more units than just the ghost to deal with both toss's late game and zerg's late game.
This would also make the other races have to react to us if we get these late game oriented upgrades that are meant to deal with late game chargelots and speedling/roach armys.
No Sir! It is okay for zerg and protoss to use the exact same units not terran! TSK TSK
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Snipe should do 35 +15 to psionic.
We should live in a world where it doesn't take 2 snipes to kill a zergling.
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EPT
