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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money...
it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed.
and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts.
it's a 300/250 unit.
and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible.
if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too.
the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change.
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wunsun Canada. February 15 2012 15:25. Posts 267 PM Profile Quote # Guys.... No PTR "We have decided that, at this time, we will not be operating a public test realm for the 1.4.3 patch. I have edited the previous post by Aldrexus in this thread to reflect that fact. We apologize for the confusion created on this subject. Thank you for the excellent feedback on the many other topics that have come up in this thread." http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=17#330
yeah I read that too, so now the question becomes are they going to simply implement 1.4.3 as it is without PTR testing... or are changing things to 1.4.3 right now and then do a PTR...
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On February 15 2012 19:15 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:03 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 03:04 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. Can we get some more GREAT examples of how ghosts is OP? The MVP vs Nestea Final only showed it's a bad idea to max on Brood Lords when your opponent has 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts. It would be equal to sending 50 roaches into 20+ 3/3 siege tanks protected by PFs, that doesn't make the Siege Tank overpowered, it makes the decision for Zerg to send those Roaches in there a bad decision, just like how Nestea made a mistake sending all those Brood Lords straight into 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts. If MVP had the resources from those Ghosts put into Vikings/Thors/Marines or heck just Nukes, the outcome would've been the same. Snipe didn't make or break that game.
so you are basically saying that there are other ways to crush BL/Infestor/Corruptor as easy as MVP did with ghosts.
Well, then nerf the ghost (not that drastically).
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On February 15 2012 19:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:15 Thezzy wrote:On February 15 2012 19:03 Torra wrote:On February 15 2012 03:04 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 00:10 Zegz wrote:
Please watch the Blizzcon Finals and you will see why ghosts were nerfed vs zerg. Can we get some more GREAT examples of how ghosts is OP? The MVP vs Nestea Final only showed it's a bad idea to max on Brood Lords when your opponent has 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts. It would be equal to sending 50 roaches into 20+ 3/3 siege tanks protected by PFs, that doesn't make the Siege Tank overpowered, it makes the decision for Zerg to send those Roaches in there a bad decision, just like how Nestea made a mistake sending all those Brood Lords straight into 20+ 3/3 max energy Ghosts. If MVP had the resources from those Ghosts put into Vikings/Thors/Marines or heck just Nukes, the outcome would've been the same. Snipe didn't make or break that game. so you are basically saying that there are other ways to crush BL/Infestor/Corruptor as easy as MVP did with ghosts. Well, then nerf the ghost (not that drastically).
It was basically BLs w/o support. (mass marines probably coulda beat that...)
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On February 15 2012 19:11 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 18:59 Charon1979 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases? Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability. So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors. The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign. Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away. so terran need no less than 3 super expensive units to counter broodlord? wtf... zerg already has infestors because they're godlike, and already has corruptors because they're broodlord larvae. terran don't have dozens of vikings, ghosts and ravens just floating around. you're still theorycrafting. the stuff you describe i've never seen in any pro match... at least my situation is a realistic situation which happens the majority of games between macro terran versus an aggressive zerg player (the players who make it super hard for terran to split the map). zerg will almost always have more infestors than terran has ghosts... this is a big part of the matchup. zerg will have more bases = more gas and faster production. terran can't exactly switch all of his rax onto tech labs and half his marine production on a whim. EMP on infestors is useless unless they're clumped up.
no, terran needs 1 cheap unit to counter broodlord, its called a viking.
broodlord infestor is another story entirely, there you actually need 2 units, 1 cheap and one expensive, to counter 2 expensive units, those two are vikings and ghosts.
broodlord infestor corruptor is even worse, to counter that you need 3 units(!) out of which 2 are expensive and one cheap, to counter 2 expensive units and 1 cheap unit, these are viking, ghost and ravens for PDD.
sorry terrans, but a unit that can cloak, snipe overseers before the overseers are in range to detect and hardcounter every zerg unitcomposition in the game (other than 400 banelings) actually is pretty OP in large numbers.
oh, and mass zergling does not counter ghost, lets ignore the snipe for now, and think about the auto attack, it kills zerglings in 2 shots, so it takes 8 shots to kill their own supplyworth of zerglings, thats 7 attack cooldowns, which is 7*1.5 = 10.5 seconds, now lets ignore the fact that ghosts are ranged while zegrlings are melee, lets assume the zerglings all can attack at all times. this does not matter, why? because ghosts can cloak for a longer duration than 10.5 seconds, and unless a terran allows it to happen, no overseer will ever detect a cloaked ghost, especially not a mass of cloaked ghosts.
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On February 15 2012 20:10 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:11 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 18:59 Charon1979 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases? Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability. So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors. The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign. Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away. so terran need no less than 3 super expensive units to counter broodlord? wtf... zerg already has infestors because they're godlike, and already has corruptors because they're broodlord larvae. terran don't have dozens of vikings, ghosts and ravens just floating around. you're still theorycrafting. the stuff you describe i've never seen in any pro match... at least my situation is a realistic situation which happens the majority of games between macro terran versus an aggressive zerg player (the players who make it super hard for terran to split the map). zerg will almost always have more infestors than terran has ghosts... this is a big part of the matchup. zerg will have more bases = more gas and faster production. terran can't exactly switch all of his rax onto tech labs and half his marine production on a whim. EMP on infestors is useless unless they're clumped up. no, terran needs 1 cheap unit to counter broodlord, its called a viking. broodlord infestor is another story entirely, there you actually need 2 units, 1 cheap and one expensive, to counter 2 expensive units, those two are vikings and ghosts. broodlord infestor corruptor is even worse, to counter that you need 3 units(!) out of which 2 are expensive and one cheap, to counter 2 expensive units and 1 cheap unit, these are viking, ghost and ravens for PDD. sorry terrans, but a unit that can cloak, snipe overseers before the overseers are in range to detect and hardcounter every zerg unitcomposition in the game (other than 400 banelings) actually is pretty OP in large numbers. oh, and mass zergling does not counter ghost, lets ignore the snipe for now, and think about the auto attack, it kills zerglings in 2 shots, so it takes 8 shots to kill their own supplyworth of zerglings, thats 7 attack cooldowns, which is 7*1.5 = 10.5 seconds, now lets ignore the fact that ghosts are ranged while zegrlings are melee, lets assume the zerglings all can attack at all times. this does not matter, why? because ghosts can cloak for a longer duration than 10.5 seconds, and unless a terran allows it to happen, no overseer will ever detect a cloaked ghost, especially not a mass of cloaked ghosts.
First off, the issue isn't specifically BL/Infestor/Corruptor but the tech switch Zerg can do from it.
Against just BL/Inf/Corr, yeah, Terran could survive using Vikings, Ghosts and assorted units.
But then Zerg remaxes on Ultras and your Vikings are useless and you get overrun on the ground.
Also, you can get a ton of lings for the price of a single Ghost.
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WHY NOT JUST 25 +25 BIOLOGICAL NON-MASSIVE UNITS if the issue is that its just too easy to kill ultras and broodlords? so what happens when you snipe mutas, its less effective and it takes 2 snipes to kill a worker?! Whats the point of a sniper with the concept of being able to kill with a single shot when it can't single snipe a worker?! So don't call the unit a sniper with the ability to snipe coz that's not what it does.
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On February 15 2012 20:18 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:10 Roblin wrote:On February 15 2012 19:11 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 18:59 Charon1979 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases? Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability. So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors. The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign. Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away. so terran need no less than 3 super expensive units to counter broodlord? wtf... zerg already has infestors because they're godlike, and already has corruptors because they're broodlord larvae. terran don't have dozens of vikings, ghosts and ravens just floating around. you're still theorycrafting. the stuff you describe i've never seen in any pro match... at least my situation is a realistic situation which happens the majority of games between macro terran versus an aggressive zerg player (the players who make it super hard for terran to split the map). zerg will almost always have more infestors than terran has ghosts... this is a big part of the matchup. zerg will have more bases = more gas and faster production. terran can't exactly switch all of his rax onto tech labs and half his marine production on a whim. EMP on infestors is useless unless they're clumped up. no, terran needs 1 cheap unit to counter broodlord, its called a viking. broodlord infestor is another story entirely, there you actually need 2 units, 1 cheap and one expensive, to counter 2 expensive units, those two are vikings and ghosts. broodlord infestor corruptor is even worse, to counter that you need 3 units(!) out of which 2 are expensive and one cheap, to counter 2 expensive units and 1 cheap unit, these are viking, ghost and ravens for PDD. sorry terrans, but a unit that can cloak, snipe overseers before the overseers are in range to detect and hardcounter every zerg unitcomposition in the game (other than 400 banelings) actually is pretty OP in large numbers. oh, and mass zergling does not counter ghost, lets ignore the snipe for now, and think about the auto attack, it kills zerglings in 2 shots, so it takes 8 shots to kill their own supplyworth of zerglings, thats 7 attack cooldowns, which is 7*1.5 = 10.5 seconds, now lets ignore the fact that ghosts are ranged while zegrlings are melee, lets assume the zerglings all can attack at all times. this does not matter, why? because ghosts can cloak for a longer duration than 10.5 seconds, and unless a terran allows it to happen, no overseer will ever detect a cloaked ghost, especially not a mass of cloaked ghosts. First off, the issue isn't specifically BL/Infestor/Corruptor but the tech switch Zerg can do from it. Against just BL/Inf/Corr, yeah, Terran could survive using Vikings, Ghosts and assorted units. But then Zerg remaxes on Ultras and your Vikings are useless and you get overrun on the ground. Also, you can get a ton of lings for the price of a single Ghost.
no, that's simply wrong. you don't get overrun that easily. there are plenty of games in which a Terran was caught with marauders against broodlords and vikings against ultras and didnt lose. neither the engagement nor the game.
ofc it might happen that you lose in this situation, on the other hand there are tons of games in which a terran simply won because he went marauder or viking in this situation.
not to mention that as long as zerg doesn't go fast upgrade style with 15min ultra/crackling attack (pretty allinish, because the zerg is on 3base and pretty broke) a defensivly positioned tank/marine/medivac army beats ultra based play completly without marauders. at least defensivly.
and noone is complaining of a Terran that goes ghosts in these situations, instead of something ese. it's the games whenTerran has all the roach and ling and bling defenses up an turret rings everywhere and a zerg has specifically switched out of ling/bling/roach play and then the terran adds 10-20 ghosts and becomes untouchable.
maybe 200+ banelings could break this if the tank count is lower than ~10, but I'm not sure if a map exists that has enough ressources that after 25-30mins of back and forth playing, you can use 10.000/5.000 or more on an inefficient trade and afterwards rebuild another army to clean up all the bases/buildings/PFs/reinforcements all around the map.
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On February 15 2012 20:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:18 Thezzy wrote:On February 15 2012 20:10 Roblin wrote:On February 15 2012 19:11 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 18:59 Charon1979 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:31 shizna wrote:On February 15 2012 09:27 mlspmatt wrote:On February 15 2012 07:41 Remi wrote:On February 15 2012 06:46 mlspmatt wrote:
I think there is a use for Ravens that has not been used much. I think the use of PDD vs the Infestor/Corrupter/BL composition could add a lot. 2 ravens = 4 PDD's = 80 absorbed Corrupter shots = approx 1600 dmg = approx 10 Vikings.
So for the price of 2 Ravens Terrans could save 10 Vikings, thats pretty cost effecient. It wouldn't help vs Fungal, but soaking up all those Corrupter shots would help a lot. I don't believe I've seen it in practice, and I could never figure out why.
Maybe Terrans have some room for innovation but Blizzard would probably nurf it the next day anyway. 2 Ravens cost 400 gas which equates to 5.3 vikings, so for yours money you get almost double hp, but only half of dps which is clearly inferior trade, as you would want to take bl/corruptors as fast as possible, before they will wipe out your ground army, not to mention, you can't use ravens right away as vikings, but will have to wait 2-3 minutes as they charge enough energy. I have no clue what you're talking about. #1. Gas is not a problem for Terran in most TvZ unless meching. #2. The point of my post was the PDD which you made no mention of. #3. Energy isn't much of an issue. 1 PDD absorbs 20 Corrupter attacks = 20x20dmg=400 dmg, nearly 3 Vikings worth of HP. So the Raven has already paid for itself even if it dies. theorycrafting at its best. if ravens were affordable then they would be imba, but they're not. that's why people laugh in your face when you hype it up. when exactly do you get the spare money to make raven's against an aggressive zerg? you're pretty much stuck to 3 bases and have to spend every penny on staying alive with tank/bio/medivac and getting essential upgrades. the zerg should always have an economic lead, so you don't have the luxury of investing in units which are pretty much useless until later on because you need to keep your army strong enough to make good cost effective trades vs zerg mid game. often when you see the standard zerg tier3 transition, the terran has to ration his extremely limited resources by making a handful of priceless vikings and maybe 1-2 ghosts if he managed to keep the 3rd mining long enough inbetween annoying counter attacks/mutas etc. therefore your theorycrafting doesn't help. those couple of ghosts are what stopped you from auto-losing. edit: i love getting a single raven in each matchup, but basically use it as a detector and nothing more... the effect of turret and PDD are nice but not good enough that you can afford to stop your production in favour of ravens :p But you have the money to 10 - 20 ghosts from 3 bases? Interesting. Why do you always try to change the setting? We are talking about a split map situation where Zerg NEEDS to go Broodlord because T fortified his side of the Map heavily. To support his BL he needs corruptors and infestors, because every other combination lacks AA or survivability. So where your 3 base terran suddenly appears? The patch doesnt change a thing for a 3 base terran. Because a 3 Base terran wont snipe broodlords, just EMP infestors. The raven actually is a good support unit. Instead of building 15 ghosts you get a handful of Ravens mixed in. EMP shut down fungals (and snipe now even 2shots infestors) and without fungal the Vikings and Ravens nearly have free reign. Turrets to create chokes, PDD to help against corruptors and HSM to shoo Broods away. so terran need no less than 3 super expensive units to counter broodlord? wtf... zerg already has infestors because they're godlike, and already has corruptors because they're broodlord larvae. terran don't have dozens of vikings, ghosts and ravens just floating around. you're still theorycrafting. the stuff you describe i've never seen in any pro match... at least my situation is a realistic situation which happens the majority of games between macro terran versus an aggressive zerg player (the players who make it super hard for terran to split the map). zerg will almost always have more infestors than terran has ghosts... this is a big part of the matchup. zerg will have more bases = more gas and faster production. terran can't exactly switch all of his rax onto tech labs and half his marine production on a whim. EMP on infestors is useless unless they're clumped up. no, terran needs 1 cheap unit to counter broodlord, its called a viking. broodlord infestor is another story entirely, there you actually need 2 units, 1 cheap and one expensive, to counter 2 expensive units, those two are vikings and ghosts. broodlord infestor corruptor is even worse, to counter that you need 3 units(!) out of which 2 are expensive and one cheap, to counter 2 expensive units and 1 cheap unit, these are viking, ghost and ravens for PDD. sorry terrans, but a unit that can cloak, snipe overseers before the overseers are in range to detect and hardcounter every zerg unitcomposition in the game (other than 400 banelings) actually is pretty OP in large numbers. oh, and mass zergling does not counter ghost, lets ignore the snipe for now, and think about the auto attack, it kills zerglings in 2 shots, so it takes 8 shots to kill their own supplyworth of zerglings, thats 7 attack cooldowns, which is 7*1.5 = 10.5 seconds, now lets ignore the fact that ghosts are ranged while zegrlings are melee, lets assume the zerglings all can attack at all times. this does not matter, why? because ghosts can cloak for a longer duration than 10.5 seconds, and unless a terran allows it to happen, no overseer will ever detect a cloaked ghost, especially not a mass of cloaked ghosts. First off, the issue isn't specifically BL/Infestor/Corruptor but the tech switch Zerg can do from it. Against just BL/Inf/Corr, yeah, Terran could survive using Vikings, Ghosts and assorted units. But then Zerg remaxes on Ultras and your Vikings are useless and you get overrun on the ground. Also, you can get a ton of lings for the price of a single Ghost. no, that's simply wrong. you don't get overrun that easily. there are plenty of games in which a Terran was caught with marauders against broodlords and vikings against ultras and didnt lose. neither the engagement nor the game. ofc it might happen that you lose in this situation, on the other hand there are tons of games in which a terran simply won because he went marauder or viking in this situation. not to mention that as long as zerg doesn't go fast upgrade style with 15min ultra/crackling attack (pretty allinish, because the zerg is on 3base and pretty broke) a defensivly positioned tank/marine/medivac army beats ultra based play completly without marauders. at least defensivly. and noone is complaining of a Terran that goes ghosts in these situations, instead of something ese. it's the games whenTerran has all the roach and ling and bling defenses up an turret rings everywhere and a zerg has specifically switched out of ling/bling/roach play and then the terran adds 10-20 ghosts and becomes untouchable. maybe 200+ banelings could break this if the tank count is lower than ~10, but I'm not sure if a map exists that has enough ressources that after 25-30mins of back and forth playing, you can use 10.000/5.000 or more on an inefficient trade and afterwards rebuild another army to clean up all the bases/buildings/PFs/reinforcements all around the map.
so.... ghost have to be nerfed because zerg doesn't want to use nydus or drop?
that seems like the alternative to defensive planetary fortress and medivac drop play... which is essential for terran to even have a chance late game..
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On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change.
You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors.
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On February 15 2012 20:35 JohnReign wrote:
WHY NOT JUST 25 +25 BIOLOGICAL NON-MASSIVE UNITS if the issue is that its just too easy to kill ultras and broodlords? so what happens when you snipe mutas, its less effective and it takes 2 snipes to kill a worker?! Whats the point of a sniper with the concept of being able to kill with a single shot when it can't single snipe a worker?! So don't call the unit a sniper with the ability to snipe coz that's not what it does.
It needs to Heat-shot the workers to single shot it....
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ah whatever, not gonna care about.
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so.... ghost have to be nerfed because zerg doesn't want to use nydus or drop?
that seems like the alternative to defensive planetary fortress and medivac drop play... which is essential for terran to even have a chance late game..
Drop play is shut down with vikings pretty quickly (speed 1.8749 vs 2.75 and Range 9, 20 Dps vs 200 HP) and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has.
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On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors.
You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks.
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On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +so.... ghost have to be nerfed because zerg doesn't want to use nydus or drop?
that seems like the alternative to defensive planetary fortress and medivac drop play... which is essential for terran to even have a chance late game.. Drop play is shut down with vikings pretty quickly (speed 1.8749 vs 2.75 and Range 9, 20 Dps vs 200 HP) and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has.
even if you dont shut it down (and good players will get at least the drops in), it means that you have an army that cant fight his (cant drop/nydus broodlords)
and then you are essentially baseracing (at best) without artillery or airsuperiority against an opponent whose army you can't beat, that has PFs and buildings that can fly and who can destroy your whole army by sending cloaked units against it.
I mean sure, the situation is messy enough that you have a small chance to win, but do we really want a game that is designed about baseracing?
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On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks.
come on, he is talking about sending single melee units into sieged positions. i mean, the odds of this ultralisk reaching the ghosts are surely lower than the odds of a random bug making it so that in this particular situation the tanks will splash the ghosts.
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On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks.
The guy he quoted was actually talking about BLs, but I guess broodlings, fungal and tank splash won't hurt the ghosts either?
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It is possible, as someone suggested a few posts back, that the snipe nerf is in preparation for HotS, even if that does seems like a really strange move to make at this point. I just don't buy the explanation that the sole purpose of the change is to balance lategame TvZ, when snipes will no longer 1-shot workers, zerglings, banelings or marines, zealots have gone from 4 shots to 5, and all the rest.
There are all kinds of other ways they could have addressed the Ghost v BL/Ultra issue, like making it 25 (+20 non-massive), which would have fixed that specific issue perfectly with no effect on anything else, as far as I can tell. This change doesn't just nerf the Ghost, it nullifies all kinds of interesting strategies that involve using snipe early game (eg I used to throw in a couple of Ghosts with early marine pushes to snipe small numbers of banelings; now that'll be useless) and overall just punishes creative use of a unit.
So I think either Blizz completely overlooked this fact (unlikely) or, either they've decided Snipe was OP against other units too or there's something greater at play here like balance preparations for HotS units.
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On February 15 2012 21:57 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 21:48 GreatestThreat wrote:On February 15 2012 21:25 WickedSkies wrote:On February 15 2012 19:25 TheDraken wrote:On February 15 2012 19:08 WickedSkies wrote:
Ultralisk - 300/200
Ghost - 200/100
And they FEEL That ghost is countering ultra too well? It better be for that kind of money... it's not about the money. it's that you're dumping all your resources into spellcasters for a main army. same problem they had before the infestor was nerfed. and it's less about the ultralisk and more about the broodlord. for all that investment the zerg makes you don't even need to tech switch. you just throw down one building and start pumping ghosts. it's a 300/250 unit. and yet you can 6 shot it with a 200/100 unit from a nice distance while invisible. if anything the invisibility of the ghost is the worst part of it. a zerg can only make overseers, and yet it takes no time at all to snipe them dead and then the zerg is left losing ALL of his broodlords to a few invisible ghosts. it would be one thing if zerg detection was more robust or broodlords could get away. you say use infestors to detect them? oh right. ghost has EMP for that too. the unit just does too much. snipe was a reasonable change. You must have not played this game at all. For the time it takes you to 6-shot an ultra, a fungal is on top of you, or siege tank splash, or something equally gruesome. I would prefer a more beefy unit. Also, if ghosts can emp infestors, that mean infestors are clumped, right? Because of their large size, infestors are not that easy to clump, while if you leave your ghosts clumped, a single fungal can be their demise, cause zerg can just send 1 ultra on top of them and then siege tank fire will splatter everything. My opinion is that zerg players usually are far more terrible and only the easiness of their race to play is the reason for their good results. Cause, let's face it, currently there is nothing more to zerg than attacking from a good angle, having your banes spread and pressing T with infestors. You really have no credibility calling zerg players terrible when you're too stupid to know that siege tanks don't even splash anything while shooting ultralisks. The guy he quoted was actually talking about BLs, but I guess broodlings, fungal and tank splash won't hurt the ghosts either?
He specifically said ultra and he didn't mention broodlords once in his own post.
I also find it hilarious how terran players complain about fungal when it's a manually targeted ability with less DPS per target than a single stimmed marine, costs energy, and comes from a fragile gas expensive unit, while terran players have auto smart-firing tanks with range fucking 13. Seriously you guys are joking right? "One good fungal and it's over" - how about that fact that you don't even have to do anything to watch my infestors automatically melt to your tanks as they're trying to get close enough to cast fungal?
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On February 15 2012 21:37 Charon1979 wrote:
... and nydusplay has no room at all because of all the buildings a terran has.
Because of comments like this I understand when David Kim buffs zerg so much...cause it clearly reveals the IQ of the average zerg player is between of a carrot and a turtle. CAUSE OF ALL OF THE BUILDINGS THE TERRAN HAS? WTF? WTF? JUST WTF? Sure, they give us vision, but can you even compare it to the vision zergs gain from overlords and creep, or burrowed stuff? Or even to toss who has pylons and obs all over the map? Surely you don't see supply depots all over the map? Besides, it is like comparing it to a nuke, when terran complains toss has obs or zerg has spores. But surely you don't want to use anything that causes you to think or to do more actions than just a-moving with lings/ultra and spamming t with infestors. The more and more I see comments in TL, the more I realize sc2 deserves what is happening to it. Cause it is the fanbase (you, Idra lovers) that play sc2 and who have some subjective opinion based on their own inability and lack of skill, not some objective scrub nobodys who cite the statistics which show terran late game win ratio vs zerg is below 30%. There is no reason to argue, Blizzard have seen that sc2 needs a race which can take a mainstream gamer to masters with ease. They even created two such races. Good luck to you, sirs.
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EPT
