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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On February 05 2012 03:49 jupiter6 wrote: haha i laugh when people compere BW mech to toss army in sc2, they are not even close you have to be clueless to think they are similar. Did you misquote or do you have difficulties reading? | ||
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jupiter6
205 Posts
On February 05 2012 04:33 Dalavita wrote: erm, i was referring to the guy you quoted -.-Did you misquote or do you have difficulties reading? | ||
sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
nice to see that foreign protosses are finally getting to see how it is to have a 40 % overall winrate vs another race | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On February 05 2012 04:16 jupiter6 wrote: are you seriously implying that tvp in bw for terran was just turtle on 3 bases and 1a for victory with your 200/200 army lol? if it wasnt for flash there wouldnt be any terran champions for the last few years, there are plenty of pros (idra included) that claim tvp was protoss favored, plus there wasnt any invicible deathball you keep talking about arbiters/carriers/ storms could just shit over your mech in seconds if you werent carefull. Protoss was called 1a2a3a race in bw for a reason, dont try to bs it was other way around. No, I'm not. Lets break this down: Terran+Protoss are both VERY difficult to stop when it comes to 200/200 army in their respective games. Are they played the same way? Absolutely not. Protoss gets to Amove while Terran slowly pushes their way forward with tanks and Vultures, mixing in Goliaths if they attempt to add in shuttle play or Carriers. They both have the same end results, but achieve it through different means. Comprendes? | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On February 05 2012 04:02 Cloud9157 wrote: Which brings me back to what I said. Damage Protoss before they get their 200/200 deathball of Chargelots/Stalkers/Archons or they will be nearly unstoppable. Protoss does the same thing in BW against Terran. I can't tell you how many games Terrans simply drop my mineral line. Resources are not the target in this matchup. Your target should be the forges. If you kill even one of them, you have no idea how hard that hurts. Need to wait for the forge to rebuild and then research that upgrade again. And my point is that the terran army, while being stronger at 200/200 in BW, still had to be played properly to be effective. You had to actually leapfrog tanks and keep planting spider mines. With protoss all you do is move across the map once it's done. One race will pretty much always have the stronger endgame composition, that's not the issue. An endgame composition has to have weaknesses that can be abused tho. Kill him before 200/200 is not a lategame weakness. It's a fact that can be applied to everything that's lategame oriented. A lategame weakness is immobillity or having to micro/use skills like spider mines or siege tanks properly. The protoss deathball is mobile and can be grouped on one hotkey to great success. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26971 Posts
On February 05 2012 05:11 Dalavita wrote: And my point is that the terran army, while being stronger at 200/200 in BW, still had to be played properly to be effective. You had to actually leapfrog tanks and keep planting spider mines. With protoss all you do is move across the map once it's done. One race will pretty much always have the stronger endgame composition, that's not the issue. An endgame composition has to have weaknesses that can be abused tho. Kill him before 200/200 is not a lategame weakness. It's a fact that can be applied to everything that's lategame oriented. A lategame weakness is immobillity or having to micro/use skills like spider mines or siege tanks properly. The protoss deathball is mobile and can be grouped on one hotkey to great success. Yeah I echo this sentiment, especially the micro point. I really think there should be limits to units that can be grouped simultaneously, although of course this would impact on Zergs more than the other races so I'm not sure if they'd like it. I mean I am godawful at Brood War, but me and my friends play it for fun every so often and I annihilate them in that game mechanically, in SC2 my ability to box and split things gives me a small advantage, but it's nowhere near as pronounced. Deathball syndrome is retarded, although related primarily to design, it does have balance implications. New compositions would emerge, old ones would become harder to use and the game would be more interesting and varied as a consequence. For example, Carriers would instantaneously become better if you couldn't just box all your marines and focus fire them with ease. | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
On February 05 2012 04:44 sVnteen wrote: wow this is soo incredibly balanced (for korea) nice to see that foreign protosses are finally getting to see how it is to have a 40 % overall winrate vs another race What do you mean finally? except for a few sporadic up-ticks, protoss has been at the bottom of these statistics for the better part of a yaer. | ||
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jgelling
55 Posts
Muta ling was balanced in beta around KA as a possible mid-game response. The weak stalker AA, the incompetence of the SC2 archon vs SC1, and the lack of a corsair with splash damage was offset by the possibility of storms discouraging just 30+ muta play, which is so much deadlier in SC2 because of the easier control grouping. Now Blizz will have to make more modest buffs to other secondary units or upgrades to make up for crippling the Protoss spellcaster. I don't think we would've need immortal, warp prism, cheaper upgrades, EMP, infestor, and other nerfs and a whole new anti-muta flyer if they left well enough alone. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On February 05 2012 11:30 jgelling wrote: I feel like the Protoss stats have been shaky ever since they removed KA, while buffing infestors and ghosts. Everything they've done since then has been a bunch of small upgrades to Protoss and nerfs to the other races to make up for that. Muta ling was balanced in beta around KA as a possible mid-game response. The weak stalker AA, the incompetence of the SC2 archon vs SC1, and the lack of a corsair with splash damage was offset by the possibility of storms discouraging just 30+ muta play, which is so much deadlier in SC2 because of the easier control grouping. Now Blizz will have to make more modest buffs to other secondary units or upgrades to make up for crippling the Protoss spellcaster. I don't think we would've need immortal, warp prism, cheaper upgrades, EMP, infestor, and other nerfs and a whole new anti-muta flyer if they left well enough alone. It isnt KA which only applied to late game which toss does just fine in. It's WG timing that made it so you sit in your base until two base where you can finally make a move. T & Z do not have to account for 4 gate all ins, an all in which shut down things like 1/1/1. Zergs and Terran can also FE at will not fearing early all in. Its funny somthing to address PvP didnt do crap while totally changing the other matchups. Because there is no effective cheese or one base play that can frighten Terran or Zerg they can sit and macro for the first 10 minutes safly or all in you. You don't have that option. You have to pray you get to two base and your all in is not countered then you win. | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On February 03 2012 13:37 nttea wrote: you say its not as bad as it looks like theres some obvious reason why that is... please enlighten me (the pvz part) Because PvZ is pretty bad but bad is 60 - 40% and people are talking like its an impossible matchup... I'm not saying its perfectly fine but do you have any idea how many zergs are like Terran op because of this thread like its such a huge difference I just don't understand why people refuse to learn the match up or change what they are doing instead of saying its imbalanced... | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On February 05 2012 11:30 jgelling wrote: I feel like the Protoss stats have been shaky ever since they removed KA, while buffing infestors and ghosts. Everything they've done since then has been a bunch of small upgrades to Protoss and nerfs to the other races to make up for that. Muta ling was balanced in beta around KA as a possible mid-game response. The weak stalker AA, the incompetence of the SC2 archon vs SC1, and the lack of a corsair with splash damage was offset by the possibility of storms discouraging just 30+ muta play, which is so much deadlier in SC2 because of the easier control grouping. Now Blizz will have to make more modest buffs to other secondary units or upgrades to make up for crippling the Protoss spellcaster. I don't think we would've need immortal, warp prism, cheaper upgrades, EMP, infestor, and other nerfs and a whole new anti-muta flyer if they left well enough alone. O.O they buffed the ghost? I'm pretty sure it was nerfed? | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Oh wait, Terran still leads in both it's matchups, so never mind. ...I was almost amazed for a second. On a more serious note though, the topic of Protoss balance, high-level stats can be misleading. I think too many people assume that because Protoss fails at the top level (at least currently via the maps and play styles) that they are also underpowered at low levels as well (including even top masters) That is not necessarily the case at all, since a race can be overpowered at a low level even if it's underpowered at high level. Take for example 2 races: 1 race has only 2 unit types: workers and attackers. The attacker units are like zealots with Gauss rifles or something. Another race has only spellcasters, but all the spells are not that expensive. Even with the ridiculous ability to tab through unit types and smart cast, there would certainly be a point where the spellcaster race goes from getting owned, to owning in that matchup. | ||
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On February 05 2012 17:55 Xapti wrote: Terran doesn't have the top winrate overall? IMPOSIBRU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh wait, Terran still leads in both it's matchups, so never mind. ...I was almost amazed for a second. A 50,3% win rate in TvZ barely classifies as leading in the matchup, this is so ridiculously close to 50% you might aswell just say it is 50% for both races. 0,3% are a couple of matches in a sample size of 10,000 | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11086 Posts
On February 05 2012 17:47 tdt wrote: It isnt KA which only applied to late game which toss does just fine in. It's WG timing that made it so you sit in your base until two base where you can finally make a move. T & Z do not have to account for 4 gate all ins, an all in which shut down things like 1/1/1. Zergs and Terran can also FE at will not fearing early all in. Its funny somthing to address PvP didnt do crap while totally changing the other matchups. Because there is no effective cheese or one base play that can frighten Terran or Zerg they can sit and macro for the first 10 minutes safly or all in you. You don't have that option. You have to pray you get to two base and your all in is not countered then you win. Mostly true but there are just a score of obvious deficiencies with blizz's approach to toss compared with the other races. Chrono's true impact on the game. KA and templar generally t.t. Mediocre AA, general fragility. If the bw pros come... | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On February 05 2012 18:24 Sabu113 wrote: Mostly true but there are just a score of obvious deficiencies with blizz's approach to toss compared with the other races. Chrono's true impact on the game. KA and templar generally t.t. Mediocre AA, general fragility. If the bw pros come... That's true. And I take back implying KA had no effect, AA vs mutas/banshee was a good one. But I think the issue goes all the way to no good one base builds anymore. Starting with old 3gVR nerf to pyons/cannons to 4 gate nerf in may. Protoss was actually stronger than terran before all that. | ||
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On February 05 2012 18:07 Xapti wrote: Yeah I wasn't being too serious. That said, call it even— fine, but the stats have never shown zerg ahead in that matchup, so it's statistically improbable that every single time the matchup stats are tallied the terran is ahead if they were actually balanced evenly. Well in the last 4 months the difference was at most 51,x% which is basically 50%, now I understand when people see an imbalance in ZvP with a 59% (?) win rate for Zerg, but 51% is pretty much no difference at all and could be easily attributed to player skill (1% difference that is). Just look at the games that were counted last month a Bo31 between qxc and Catz which already put terran ahead by like 12 wins just because the vastly superior player (qxc) beat the vastly inferior player (catz) in a Bo31 showmatch It's things like this that make me think that player skill is a much bigger factor in these statistics than people think. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
- Forcefields are the only way for toss to survive early game because their units are expensive. - But in the late game protoss is unstoppable with their supply efficient units their fast remaxes anywhere on the map and strong overall units with fast upgrades. | ||
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Hetz
196 Posts
I'd love to see the win rate charts for NA, EU and Asia for bronze up to master league. The sample size will be so huge that even though these players aren't pro's, some interesting conclusion may be drawn here. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On February 05 2012 19:02 ChaosTerran wrote: Well in the last 4 months the difference was at most 51,x% which is basically 50%, now I understand when people see an imbalance in ZvP with a 59% (?) win rate for Zerg, but 51% is pretty much no difference at all and could be easily attributed to player skill (1% difference that is). Just look at the games that were counted last month a Bo31 between qxc and Catz which already put terran ahead by like 12 wins just because the vastly superior player (qxc) beat the vastly inferior player (catz) in a Bo31 showmatch It's things like this that make me think that player skill is a much bigger factor in these statistics than people think. Data like Catz vs qxc are problem. The same thing is with early rounds of every rournament. It would be nice if there were some solid assessment of player skill (like MMR) based on tournament results. We could give weight factor to games. | ||
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