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On February 05 2012 17:47 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 11:30 jgelling wrote:
I feel like the Protoss stats have been shaky ever since they removed KA, while buffing infestors and ghosts. Everything they've done since then has been a bunch of small upgrades to Protoss and nerfs to the other races to make up for that.
Muta ling was balanced in beta around KA as a possible mid-game response. The weak stalker AA, the incompetence of the SC2 archon vs SC1, and the lack of a corsair with splash damage was offset by the possibility of storms discouraging just 30+ muta play, which is so much deadlier in SC2 because of the easier control grouping.
Now Blizz will have to make more modest buffs to other secondary units or upgrades to make up for crippling the Protoss spellcaster. I don't think we would've need immortal, warp prism, cheaper upgrades, EMP, infestor, and other nerfs and a whole new anti-muta flyer if they left well enough alone. It isnt KA which only applied to late game which toss does just fine in. It's WG timing that made it so you sit in your base until two base where you can finally make a move. T & Z do not have to account for 4 gate all ins, an all in which shut down things like 1/1/1. Zergs and Terran can also FE at will not fearing early all in. Its funny somthing to address PvP didnt do crap while totally changing the other matchups. Because there is no effective cheese or one base play that can frighten Terran or Zerg they can sit and macro for the first 10 minutes safly or all in you. You don't have that option. You have to pray you get to two base and your all in is not countered then you win.
I don't know about zerg, but if you don't know a 4gate is coming and got two bunkers down prepared to hold it you instalose vs it. I might be a minority but I'm very frightened of the 4gate, the voidray allin and the immortal bust, both on one base and two, to mention some all ins.
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look at all of you...thinking numbers balance games, so cute!
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I stopped playing for a while because of the PvZ matchup (and to some extent PvP). Against Zerg, I hate the gimmicky options REQUIRED to even survive. Sim City, Ling Runbys, Mutalisks, is a bit way too much for me.
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On February 05 2012 23:14 The_Stampede wrote:
look at all of you...thinking numbers balance games, so cute!
Looks like you clearly don't need numbers to balance games.
On January 31 2012 20:11 The_Stampede wrote:
good old protoss...imba but they still think they're underpowered
User was temp banned for this post.
On January 31 2012 20:25 The_Stampede wrote:
of course protoss can win a game after failing an all in. Interesting I must stay....
Seriously, how did you last this long on TL. Your account must be hanging by a thread.
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On February 06 2012 00:12 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 23:14 The_Stampede wrote:
look at all of you...thinking numbers balance games, so cute! Looks like you clearly don't need numbers to balance games. Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 20:11 The_Stampede wrote:
good old protoss...imba but they still think they're underpowered
User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 20:25 The_Stampede wrote:
of course protoss can win a game after failing an all in. Interesting I must stay.... Seriously, how did you last this long on TL. Your account must be hanging by a thread.
Hey man, no need to BM me for stating facts, sometimes people can't handle the truth like yourself. I'm guessing you play Protoss since you're really mad at me for no reason at all other then me stating my honest opinion. Have a good day, and remember to watch the GSL!
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On February 06 2012 00:02 Catchafire2000 wrote:
I stopped playing for a while because of the PvZ matchup (and to some extent PvP). Against Zerg, I hate the gimmicky options REQUIRED to even survive. Sim City, Ling Runbys, Mutalisks, is a bit way too much for me.
Sounds like you just don't care about the game then like many others. You basically stopped playing because you thought something was too hard in game that I'm guessing you love...so maybe you shouldn't take it as seriously, and just try to enjoy it. I've accepted the fact that I will probably never go pro, and I will enjoy the game. But I still try my best to improve with the time I have. So yeah my only tip is to look at the problems you have, and just tell yourself you're going to destroy the build or whatever someday. Lately I suck vs Protoss, so I cry about Protoss like Protoss players cry about Mutas or just early game Terran. So please enjoy the game and have fun good sir!
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On February 06 2012 00:02 Catchafire2000 wrote:
I stopped playing for a while because of the PvZ matchup (and to some extent PvP). Against Zerg, I hate the gimmicky options REQUIRED to even survive. Sim City, Ling Runbys, Mutalisks, is a bit way too much for me.
Its all part of strategy and fun of the game. Setting up a sim city is similar to setting up a siege line... I'm only gold, but there is no better feeling then shutting down a ling run by, drooping a perfect storm on a muta ball, or microing blink stalkers against hoards of ling/roach...Loosing and winnning is part ofthe game, being challenged is fun of the game (although frustrating at times...>.<)
On topic of PvZ balance, I feel as though the bigger issue lies in the overall protoss design. It seems like our early game is balanced with use of forcefields, our early midgame can be very strong with use of forcefield/blink stalekrs/collosai timing, but transitioning to late mid game, is problematic as taking a third is difficult vs muta ling since we need large number of stalkers and storm to deal with lings and muta's. And even if you take a third you will most likely get picked apart by mutas bouncing between your mineral lines or tech structures... Certain maps make it almost impossible to defend a third and even your natural...thus making getting to late game require insane amount of skill at pro level, as if you miss by a second where the mutas are your mineral line is gone...
This is where the problem lies in toss, Terran and Zerg have effective ways of "quickly" cleaning out mineral lines (stimmed marines/mutas) while toss doesn't have any fast way to clean out mineral line, thus there is really no way for a toss to come back into the game, or pull ahead with out going all in, once Terran and Zerg kill enough probes (20+) the toss has to go all in, or slowly loose, at least that's what I observed from all PvZ's and some PvT's.
On point of phenix as effective harass, it takes alot of micro ( probably not a problem at pro level) and the biggest issue with them is unlike with muta's and marines they don't really add anything to your army, especially for their cost. I feel if the cost is dropped maybe they will be used alot more, but as it is now its impossible to produce enough of them with out digging into your main army and tech, they are very similar to muta's in function, fast, good harass, and decent AA unit, but unlike muta's you can't use them in engaments as effectively as mutas for example, or even banshees thus making more then 5-8 of them risky, and hense making their harass capability even more useless since they rely on energy (less phenix less drones you can pick up), maybe if graviton beam was not an energy based ability, but may be a cool down one, don't know really?
TL;DR: Toss has poor harass making it hard for them to come back from being harassed, thus if they loose 20 probes to muta's or droops then they will pretty much loose unless they go all in.
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On February 06 2012 04:55 soviet911 wrote:
TL;DR: Toss has poor harass making it hard for them to come back from being harassed, thus if they loose 20 probes to muta's or droops then they will pretty much loose unless they go all in.
Warp prism zealot drops while you bumrush their front is amazing, and sentry drops force fielding your ramp against zerg are game ending in of themselves.
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On February 06 2012 07:37 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 04:55 soviet911 wrote:
TL;DR: Toss has poor harass making it hard for them to come back from being harassed, thus if they loose 20 probes to muta's or droops then they will pretty much loose unless they go all in. Warp prism zealot drops while you bumrush their front is amazing, and sentry drops force fielding your ramp against zerg are game ending in of themselves.
Zealots are terrible dropping units lololol. They have awesome DPS if the workers are still mining. Otherwise Zealots don't do shit once you run them away.
The only viable drops to clear a mineral line is HT+storm, Archons, and Colossi. All of which happen to be pretty expensive.
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On February 06 2012 07:49 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 07:37 Dalavita wrote:On February 06 2012 04:55 soviet911 wrote:
TL;DR: Toss has poor harass making it hard for them to come back from being harassed, thus if they loose 20 probes to muta's or droops then they will pretty much loose unless they go all in. Warp prism zealot drops while you bumrush their front is amazing, and sentry drops force fielding your ramp against zerg are game ending in of themselves. Zealots are terrible dropping units lololol. They have awesome DPS if the workers are still mining. Otherwise Zealots don't do shit once you run them away. The only viable drops to clear a mineral line is HT+storm, Archons, and Colossi. All of which happen to be pretty expensive.
Why exactly do you need to go kill workers since you are doing big economical damage anyway when they they run away from your zealots and can't go back to mine minerals and gas while you can just ff the ramp to make sure they are stuck there for good and start killing hatchery or tech structures, besides if you can warp in sentry it will also mean you can warp in stalkers. So you can warp in like 1 stalker to chase and kill those workers down if you are really care that much about them.
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On February 06 2012 00:57 The_Stampede wrote:
Hey man, no need to BM me for stating facts, sometimes people can't handle the truth like yourself. I'm guessing you play Protoss since you're really mad at me for no reason at all other then me stating my honest opinion. Have a good day, and remember to watch the GSL!
Why would anybody want to watch TvT?
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On February 06 2012 07:59 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 07:49 Cloud9157 wrote:On February 06 2012 07:37 Dalavita wrote:On February 06 2012 04:55 soviet911 wrote:
TL;DR: Toss has poor harass making it hard for them to come back from being harassed, thus if they loose 20 probes to muta's or droops then they will pretty much loose unless they go all in. Warp prism zealot drops while you bumrush their front is amazing, and sentry drops force fielding your ramp against zerg are game ending in of themselves. Zealots are terrible dropping units lololol. They have awesome DPS if the workers are still mining. Otherwise Zealots don't do shit once you run them away. The only viable drops to clear a mineral line is HT+storm, Archons, and Colossi. All of which happen to be pretty expensive. Why exactly do you need to go kill workers since you are doing big economical damage anyway when they they run away from your zealots and can't go back to mine minerals and gas while you can just ff the ramp to make sure they are stuck there for good and start killing hatchery or tech structures, besides if you can warp in sentry it will also mean you can warp in stalkers. So you can warp in like 1 stalker to chase and kill those workers down if you are really care that much about them.
IMaybe because killing workers does more damage then stopping mining (which is what mutas and marines do.). The key behind killing workers is because its A LONG lasting effect on the economy, stopping mining is not. I have watched games where a zergs third gets denied, he manages to hold his natural, with same worse econ then toss and more lost resources, then gets out mutas kills 20 probes and he is right back in the game, while toss slowly looses. I never seen this kind of come back for a toss, once toss looses thier natural or thirds its GG from there as they cant reset the econ counter (aka even out the 3vs2 base econ by killing miners)
Also on the sentry zealot drops, can you show me a replay where its done as a harass successively in pro games (and not all in's), since that's what this discussion is about? Im really curious to see it done, so i could incorporate into my game play..
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On February 06 2012 08:19 soviet911 wrote:
Also on the sentry zealot drops, can you show me a replay where its done as a harass successively in pro games (and not all in's), since that's what this discussion is about? Im really curious to see it done, so i could incorporate into my game play..
This is being done shittons, but as a theoretical argument.
Pros have the multitasking skills to not die to zealot drops because they got map awareness and pull their workers.
If you want to incorporate it into your play, shouldn't you be using zealot drops with a warp prism while you push his front, because he won't have the map awareness to deal with it, and zealots kill workers faster than any other basic unit.
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On February 05 2012 17:51 Hoodlum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 11:30 jgelling wrote:
I feel like the Protoss stats have been shaky ever since they removed KA, while buffing infestors and ghosts. Everything they've done since then has been a bunch of small upgrades to Protoss and nerfs to the other races to make up for that.
Muta ling was balanced in beta around KA as a possible mid-game response. The weak stalker AA, the incompetence of the SC2 archon vs SC1, and the lack of a corsair with splash damage was offset by the possibility of storms discouraging just 30+ muta play, which is so much deadlier in SC2 because of the easier control grouping.
Now Blizz will have to make more modest buffs to other secondary units or upgrades to make up for crippling the Protoss spellcaster. I don't think we would've need immortal, warp prism, cheaper upgrades, EMP, infestor, and other nerfs and a whole new anti-muta flyer if they left well enough alone. O.O they buffed the ghost? I'm pretty sure it was nerfed?
I was talking about patch 1.3+, where they removed KA, buffed the infestor, and then a short time later reduced the ghost's gas cost to help Terran against the mass infestor / BL infestor play that broke out. They later nerfed EMP, of course, which probably wouldn't have been necessary if KA were still in the game.
It isnt KA which only applied to late game which toss does just fine in. It's WG timing that made it so you sit in your base until two base where you can finally make a move.
Yeah, that's a fair point too - you can see in another thread here the racial win stats by length of game, and it's obvious that Protoss has NO early game at all ever since the warp gate nerf. The game has to go towards 10 minutes before Toss really gets into the game.
I don't think it's necessarily bad that Protoss is different and unable to apply effective early pressure - different races can be different. But if that's the case, there ought to have been more allowance for the difficulties of letting say, Zerg get up 3 bases practically from the start of the game, and teching crazy mutas so fast in the mid-game. KA wasn't just a late-game upgrade - it was definitely something you could tech to in the mid-game after the initial batch of mutas, assuming you went straight for templartech, which was a viable option when KA was such a powerful upgrade.
I still say if you look at the charts, ever since they pulled KA in 1.3, Protoss win rates have been shaky, and all kinds of other buffs have been necessary to try to stabilize those numbers: immortal range, archon range + massive, warp prism health, re-nerfing infestors half-way, cheaper upgrades, nerfing EMP, Mothership speed, etc., and now they're still talking about buffing the phoenix along with the previous build time reduction.
Removing KA opened a Pandora's box of problems in the mid-game+, which I don't think the warp gate nerf did quite to the same extent. But yeah, I can see removing the 4 gate threat was important, as well, since the lack of early game pressure has produced especially allows Zerg to be much greedier in the match-up than ever could have happened before. But that would've been fine if Zerg is the macro race and Protoss is the cost-efficient race, but the cost-efficiency isn't good enough in the spellcasting and AA departments ever since KA was stripped.
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If you would remember KA was removed because it was a bad from a design standpoint rather than it being overpowered, because you could easily warp in two or three templars and storm an entire damaged army after a big battle, which made protoss borderline impossible to push against after you won a battle, and required next to no thought, planning or strategy to pull off. If warp gates didn't exist, KA would probably still be in the game. Warp gates are the reason KA is gone.
Imagine how strong zealot reinforcements are now in endgame tvp, now imagine having instant storms together with them after an exchange in the endgame.
Warp gates in general have been really disruptive for standard strategic elements, like defenders advantage for instance. Protoss would be a lot easier to balance if warp gates weren't an issue. I guess the mechanic is cool, but it also limits the race.
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On February 06 2012 10:48 Dalavita wrote:
If you would remember KA was removed because it was a bad from a design standpoint rather than it being overpowered, because you could easily warp in two or three templars and storm an entire damaged army after a big battle, which made protoss borderline impossible to push against after you won a battle, and required next to no thought, planning or strategy to pull off. If warp gates didn't exist, KA would probably still be in the game. Warp gates are the reason KA is gone.
Imagine how strong zealot reinforcements are now in endgame tvp, now imagine having instant storms together with them after an exchange in the endgame.
Warp gates in general have been really disruptive for standard strategic elements, like defenders advantage for instance. Protoss would be a lot easier to balance if warp gates weren't an issue. I guess the mechanic is cool, but it also limits the race.
Sure, but different races are different. Warp gates make things harder to balance, but so do Medivacs or larva injects. I'm just saying, they chose to go after templar in patch 1.3 (instead of say, colossi), along with the warp gate timing nerf and they've been backtracking ever since with near-constant Protoss buffs. I'm just sure the muta craze right now wouldn't be a factor if KA were still in the game in some reasonable form.
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On February 05 2012 17:47 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 11:30 jgelling wrote:
I feel like the Protoss stats have been shaky ever since they removed KA, while buffing infestors and ghosts. Everything they've done since then has been a bunch of small upgrades to Protoss and nerfs to the other races to make up for that.
Muta ling was balanced in beta around KA as a possible mid-game response. The weak stalker AA, the incompetence of the SC2 archon vs SC1, and the lack of a corsair with splash damage was offset by the possibility of storms discouraging just 30+ muta play, which is so much deadlier in SC2 because of the easier control grouping.
Now Blizz will have to make more modest buffs to other secondary units or upgrades to make up for crippling the Protoss spellcaster. I don't think we would've need immortal, warp prism, cheaper upgrades, EMP, infestor, and other nerfs and a whole new anti-muta flyer if they left well enough alone. It isnt KA which only applied to late game which toss does just fine in. It's WG timing that made it so you sit in your base until two base where you can finally make a move. T & Z do not have to account for 4 gate all ins , an all in which shut down things like 1/1/1. Zergs and Terran can also FE at will not fearing early all in. Its funny somthing to address PvP didnt do crap while totally changing the other matchups. Because there is no effective cheese or one base play that can frighten Terran or Zerg they can sit and macro for the first 10 minutes safly or all in you. You don't have that option. You have to pray you get to two base and your all in is not countered then you win.
lol
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EPT
