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Meega
Germany35 Posts
International winrates are bad anyways since Koreans take part in many foreign tournament bashing players that dont even stand the slightest chance of winning. So i think korean charts are more the way to go - but even there it looks like protoss needs a small buff. (although i dont think blizzard is going to do any major balancing changes until Heart of the swarm) | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On February 04 2012 20:02 Orracle wrote: First off, cut out non Korean statistics. These include the daily SC2 Cups, etc, which can place a Bronze Protoss vs a GM Zerg. When looking at Korean statistics, PvT has been Protoss favored the past 2/3 months of the most recent patch. Not sure how you can consider that being "Protoss down". P-T is 50,8 for the protoss now, which is almost even, and was 52 for toss 2 months earlier, was T favored last month. overall stats seem balanced this month in korea, it was hugely T favored if we look at the average of all months though- while these can be read as slight divergence from 50% balance, the 34-66 ish that was the p-t some months ago can not. protoss is not down, but T is not down either, the winrates aren't as retarded as they have been for so long in favor of T and suddenly every terran claims tvp is unwinnable. | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
On February 04 2012 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote: No it isn't, Zerg lategame is comparable if not better with Infestor/BL, it depends on the map as well. I await to see more of Brown's PvZ, looked interesting but I'm not sure how much of it is actually his style's strengths, and how much is just other players being unfamiliar with his style. Thing is everyone consider BL/infestor/corruptor/spine the best unit compostion. It might be with the lategame production zerg can offer. But you have to realise how stupidly immobile force it is. I see the trend go like this 1) Z played alot mutas but P found out about warpin timings and tht pretty much was end to muta plays. 2) Z learned how to hold warpgate timings and tht was end of them aswell. 3) P said fk it and started to play very passive turtle into ''deathball'' wich seemed invicible. 4) Z adapted and started using mutas,drops etc. into his own ''deathball'' made of BL/infestor/corruptor 5) Now its on P to realise how to prevent Z getting that deathball sooner and in enough numbers. Few protoss players start using warp prisms, or cool timings to hinder Z production(+1 4gate), or just strong 2base push into third to not allow mutas kick in (if Z doesnt want to die he better be making roaches not mutas). Thats how ive seen the mu to evolve might not be accurate im not pro or some caster to see thousnads of pro games. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On February 04 2012 19:45 Big J wrote: sounds like BW Mech to me. Damage it, or die vs it. Could you a-move across the map and reinforce on top of your army with BW mech? | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On February 04 2012 23:10 Dalavita wrote: Could you a-move across the map and reinforce on top of your army with BW mech? No, but you also couldn't heal your own army nor slow your opponents'. If what you are getting at is that the analogy is imperfect, well done. You've successfully proved an equivalent to grass being green. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On February 04 2012 23:20 SeaSwift wrote: No, but you also couldn't heal your own army nor slow your opponents'. If what you are getting at is that the analogy is imperfect, well done. You've successfully proved an equivalent to grass being green. It's not a matter of flavors when you compare BW to SC2. It's a simple statement that the Protoss deathball doesn't have the weaknessses that a deathball needs to have to be battled, which makes the post of the person I quoted irrelevant. I don't know why you're getting upset about me pointing something obvious out instead of arguing with the original quote in the first place if you feel so strongly about it. Terrans being able to heal or slow is irrelevant if in the end the opponents deathball is stronger than yours, and has failsafes that the other games didn't death"ball" have. It means that whenever the deathball is up and running, you're boned, period. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
Blizz was like "the stats don't show it" ;D phew cause the last thing pvz needs is a nerf to toss. | ||
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forelmashi
421 Posts
On February 04 2012 20:04 Raggamuffinoo wrote: No one is discussing the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade. The outright removal of the upgrade confused most people, surely there is some room for tweaking the amount of energy given (See: BroodWar). If the amulet upgrade was reintroduced in a lesser form, surely this would begin to balance protoss further. I do not think buffing the pheonix or cannons, as has been suggested, is the answer. A better start is removing the 2 second cooldown on storm.... (why is it even there?), bringing carrier build time more in line with units from the other races, etc... there are a LOT of obvious minor buffs that Blizzard hasn't done... they obviously just don't like protoss as much | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 05 2012 00:17 forelmashi wrote: A better start is removing the 2 second cooldown on storm.... (why is it even there?), bringing carrier build time more in line with units from the other races, etc... there are a LOT of obvious minor buffs that Blizzard hasn't done... they obviously just don't like protoss as much well, "they obviously just don't like protoss as much" is pure bullshit, as they try to make a balanced game and everything they have done points towards that. Especially with all those buffs Protoss has gotten in the last patches. The Carrier example just lacks good argumentation. As it stands, the Carrier is one of some units that are being underused (and therefore possibly "underpowered"), compared to others. All of those have obvious ways to buff them. But what I agree with, are the cooldowns on spells, because imo it would only benefit skill, if faster players, could put down storms or healing (queen) or whatever faster, than slower players. | ||
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FluidKMC
United States45 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On February 04 2012 22:16 Veriol wrote: Thing is everyone consider BL/infestor/corruptor/spine the best unit compostion. It might be with the lategame production zerg can offer. But you have to realise how stupidly immobile force it is. I see the trend go like this 1) Z played alot mutas but P found out about warpin timings and tht pretty much was end to muta plays. 2) Z learned how to hold warpgate timings and tht was end of them aswell. 3) P said fk it and started to play very passive turtle into ''deathball'' wich seemed invicible. 4) Z adapted and started using mutas,drops etc. into his own ''deathball'' made of BL/infestor/corruptor 5) Now its on P to realise how to prevent Z getting that deathball sooner and in enough numbers. Few protoss players start using warp prisms, or cool timings to hinder Z production(+1 4gate), or just strong 2base push into third to not allow mutas kick in (if Z doesnt want to die he better be making roaches not mutas). Thats how ive seen the mu to evolve might not be accurate im not pro or some caster to see thousnads of pro games. Oh of course, all the complexities are what makes this an interesting and fun game to play and watch. I think it's a problem with maps more than anything, you can deal with the composition and the leadup to it pretty efficiently on some maps, but on maps where the BLs can hover over dead space (worst case being Meta), it's really really powerful. I was enjoying, and indeed still am Hero/JYP/Sage and their approaches to the matchup, seems there are viable styles other than MC style sick timings attacks. | ||
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Gravity3
Bulgaria17 Posts
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Rybaia
Italy213 Posts
On February 04 2012 21:55 Meega wrote: How everyone is bashing IdrA for once having stated that Zerg cant beat Protoss - you know that this was maybe half a year ago? if not even more... so please dont rip statements out of the context. International winrates are bad anyways since Koreans take part in many foreign tournament bashing players that dont even stand the slightest chance of winning. So i think korean charts are more the way to go - but even there it looks like protoss needs a small buff. (although i dont think blizzard is going to do any major balancing changes until Heart of the swarm) You didn't watch his last interview I suppose. | ||
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jupiter6
205 Posts
On February 04 2012 23:10 Dalavita wrote: Could you a-move across the map and reinforce on top of your army with BW mech? haha i laugh when people compere BW mech to toss army in sc2, they are not even close you have to be clueless to think they are similar. | ||
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Rybaia
Italy213 Posts
On February 04 2012 18:57 OzRe wrote: how is this has to do with the "easiest race to play"? i think we all know why the forgien pvz is what it is... foreign protoss dont know how to play pvz as koreans protoss players do example: most foreign protoss players all in alot because they are afraid of zerg lategame Zerg late game is incredibly strong. BLords/Infestors compostition are really hard to counter if the units are not clumped up. If the opponent is dumb enough to clump up everything you got the mothership with vortex but if the units are not clumped you can just die. If Carriers build time was acceptable they would be the best anti-zerg unit. Carriers + HT are unstoppable. | ||
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RezChi
Canada2368 Posts
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On February 04 2012 23:55 Dalavita wrote: It's not a matter of flavors when you compare BW to SC2. It's a simple statement that the Protoss deathball doesn't have the weaknessses that a deathball needs to have to be battled, which makes the post of the person I quoted irrelevant. I don't know why you're getting upset about me pointing something obvious out instead of arguing with the original quote in the first place if you feel so strongly about it. Terrans being able to heal or slow is irrelevant if in the end the opponents deathball is stronger than yours, and has failsafes that the other games didn't death"ball" have. It means that whenever the deathball is up and running, you're boned, period. Which brings me back to what I said. Damage Protoss before they get their 200/200 deathball of Chargelots/Stalkers/Archons or they will be nearly unstoppable. Protoss does the same thing in BW against Terran. I can't tell you how many games Terrans simply drop my mineral line. Resources are not the target in this matchup. Your target should be the forges. If you kill even one of them, you have no idea how hard that hurts. Need to wait for the forge to rebuild and then research that upgrade again. | ||
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jupiter6
205 Posts
On February 05 2012 04:02 Cloud9157 wrote: Which brings me back to what I said. Damage Protoss before they get their 200/200 deathball of Chargelots/Stalkers/Archons or they will be nearly unstoppable. Protoss does the same thing in BW against Terran. I can't tell you how many games Terrans simply drop my mineral line. Resources are not the target in this matchup. Your target should be the forges. If you kill even one of them, you have no idea how hard that hurts. Need to wait for the forge to rebuild and then research that upgrade again. are you seriously implying that tvp in bw for terran was just turtle on 3 bases and 1a for victory with your 200/200 army lol? if it wasnt for flash there wouldnt be any terran champions for the last few years, there are plenty of pros (idra included) that claim tvp was protoss favored, plus there wasnt any invicible deathball you keep talking about arbiters/carriers/ storms could just shit over your mech in seconds if you werent carefull. Protoss was called 1a2a3a race in bw for a reason, dont try to bs it was other way around. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On February 04 2012 23:55 Dalavita wrote: It's not a matter of flavors when you compare BW to SC2. It's a simple statement that the Protoss deathball doesn't have the weaknessses that a deathball needs to have to be battled, which makes the post of the person I quoted irrelevant. I don't know why you're getting upset about me pointing something obvious out instead of arguing with the original quote in the first place if you feel so strongly about it. Terrans being able to heal or slow is irrelevant if in the end the opponents deathball is stronger than yours, and has failsafes that the other games didn't death"ball" have. It means that whenever the deathball is up and running, you're boned, period. I don't think the Protoss ball is stronger than the Terran's if microed correctly. The problem is that Protoss can insta reinforce it with 15 zealots or something. This is a even bigger problem is it's a long long game because then Protoss can remax so much faster than Terran. The one thing I hate about this is that it favors Protoss who are defending all game, instead being active and aggressive, which can seem very boring. I think that's why aggressive players like JYP and Hero aren't that particularly good vs T. | ||
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