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PvZ should be left alone for a while. Just let it develop. It is getting big swings either way, so until it has stabilised and some more timings have been figured out Blizzard had better stay the fuck away from it, especially considering the difference between International PvZ and Korean PvZ.
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On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage.
Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying.
I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often.
On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess.
What a story mark.
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On February 04 2012 08:28 Cloud9157 wrote:
And Zergs wonder why I 6gate all in at all..
Because Mutas are the most retarded unit in the game pretty much. I proposed this idea before, but Mutas need to have 3 supply. They are WAY too effective for 100/100 2 supply.
Stop being so one dimensional, ZvT is already slightly terran favoured and you want Mutalisks 3 supply??? A Protoss buff would make more sense a the race needs a buff anyway.
Zerg isnt overpowered, Protoss is underpowered.
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On February 04 2012 08:44 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage. Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying. I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often. Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess. What a story mark.
Are you a certified idiot? You are probably the exact sort of person who has been in the way before regarding new play. Elitist prick - Voidray/carrier is the most costeffective unit composition in the whole game, it is practically impossible to beat.
Protoss have time and money to get it. But they persist on remaining 300 gas archons/250 gas colussus and gas costly stalkers.
Voidray/carrier sure as hell isn't much more costly. I hope protoss keeps having huge loss rate, they deserve it - They are infuriatingly persistent in keeping to their plans. Took you a year to even use the mothership.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 04 2012 09:04 Facultyadjutant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage. Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying. I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often. On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess. What a story mark. Are you a certified idiot? You are probably the exact sort of person who has been in the way before regarding new play. Elitist prick - Voidray/carrier is the most costeffective unit composition in the whole game, it is practically impossible to beat. Protoss have time and money to get it. But they persist on remaining 300 gas archons/250 gas colussus and gas costly stalkers. Voidray/carrier sure as hell isn't much more costly. I hope protoss keeps having huge loss rate, they deserve it - They are infuriatingly persistent in keeping to their plans. Took you a year to even use the mothership.
What? They've been using the Mothership for a long time, Kiwi was using it in 2010 iirc.
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On February 04 2012 09:04 Facultyadjutant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage. Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying. I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often. On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess. What a story mark. Are you a certified idiot? You are probably the exact sort of person who has been in the way before regarding new play. Elitist prick - Voidray/carrier is the most costeffective unit composition in the whole game, it is practically impossible to beat. Protoss have time and money to get it. But they persist on remaining 300 gas archons/250 gas colussus and gas costly stalkers. Voidray/carrier sure as hell isn't much more costly. I hope protoss keeps having huge loss rate, they deserve it - They are infuriatingly persistent in keeping to their plans. Took you a year to even use the mothership.
You truly don't understand how long it takes to get into a large army of Carriers and VRs.
Please explain to me how you do so without Zerg simply swarming you. The moment they see Carriers+VRs starting to be produced, they will steam roll you before you get there.
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On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with.
I strongly disagree with you there, it's like stabbing yourself in the eye repeatedly until you get a 3rd base secured at which point it becomes like relaxing in a hot tub.
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On February 04 2012 09:10 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 09:04 Facultyadjutant wrote:On February 04 2012 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage. Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying. I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often. On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess. What a story mark. Are you a certified idiot? You are probably the exact sort of person who has been in the way before regarding new play. Elitist prick - Voidray/carrier is the most costeffective unit composition in the whole game, it is practically impossible to beat. Protoss have time and money to get it. But they persist on remaining 300 gas archons/250 gas colussus and gas costly stalkers. Voidray/carrier sure as hell isn't much more costly. I hope protoss keeps having huge loss rate, they deserve it - They are infuriatingly persistent in keeping to their plans. Took you a year to even use the mothership. You truly don't understand how long it takes to get into a large army of Carriers and VRs. Please explain to me how you do so without Zerg simply swarming you. The moment they see Carriers+VRs starting to be produced, they will steam roll you before you get there.
This. Also go watch whatever game on calm before the storm where whoever made like 10 carriers against zerg, and just go overrun. Voidrays are not the most cost efficient unit against zerg. The colossus is. Voidrays are the most SUPPLY efficient unit against zerg. There's a massive difference there that people don't understand.
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MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time.
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On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time.
I fully agree with what MMA said.
If you let Protoss max out without damaging them somehow, its going to be very difficult to kill them. Dropping and killing the forges is what you need to do. Delay our upgrades = harsh blow.
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On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time.
That would be true if the other Protoss players were playing at a high level only.
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On February 04 2012 09:33 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time. That would be true if the other Protoss players were playing at a high level only.
But anyone can just macro up and reach 200/200, regardless of level. Multi-tasking with drops, macro, and army control is a different story.
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On February 04 2012 09:04 Facultyadjutant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage. Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying. I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often. On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess. What a story mark. Are you a certified idiot? You are probably the exact sort of person who has been in the way before regarding new play. Elitist prick - Voidray/carrier is the most costeffective unit composition in the whole game, it is practically impossible to beat. Protoss have time and money to get it. But they persist on remaining 300 gas archons/250 gas colussus and gas costly stalkers. Voidray/carrier sure as hell isn't much more costly. I hope protoss keeps having huge loss rate, they deserve it - They are infuriatingly persistent in keeping to their plans. Took you a year to even use the mothership.
Did you misquote because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Are you calling me an idiot because I claim that carrier/voidray is godawful in tvp?
On February 04 2012 09:15 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. I strongly disagree with you there, it's like stabbing yourself in the eye repeatedly until you get a 3rd base secured at which point it becomes like relaxing in a hot tub.
Try playing terran in a TvP that lasts over 25 minutes with the protoss not being gimped from harassment early on.
TvP early on is like battling a dragon. You have no idea what type of dragon it is and what approach it will take to attack you, and since it swoops in from the air you can't even see it coming until it's up in your face. At that point, if you set up the wrong defenses it will utterly crush you.
However, once you've established the dragon type and started moving you can manouver around it and attempt to get a couple of pokes, and sometimes a lucky stab will hit its heart/eye and cripple it, but more often than not the dragon just gets annoyed at your antics, swaps you down and brings out his massive dragon boner ready to anally assault you. No matter how much you squirm, run or fight, it still keeps on coming, and eventually, it impales the shit out of you, killing you in the process.
True fucking story.
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On February 04 2012 09:52 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 09:33 K3Nyy wrote:On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time. That would be true if the other Protoss players were playing at a high level only. But anyone can just macro up and reach 200/200, regardless of level. Multi-tasking with drops, macro, and army control is a different story.
Yeah, but I'm responding to blink stalkers and HT. They won't have that level of map awareness or control at low levels.
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On February 04 2012 08:36 SeaSwift wrote:
PvZ should be left alone for a while. Just let it develop. It is getting big swings either way, so until it has stabilised and some more timings have been figured out Blizzard had better stay the fuck away from it, especially considering the difference between International PvZ and Korean PvZ.
Ehmm? I dont think your looking properly, toss hasnt had a positive win ratio internationally since march, it got close to 50:50 for a couple months but thats it. Whislt in Korea its been a bit more choppy by going into the positive for those couple of months but the same can be said. Take a look at the line that goes from month to month and you can see the difference.
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On February 04 2012 09:04 Facultyadjutant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On February 04 2012 08:19 Selendis wrote:
Compositions like Void Ray/Carrier or Carrier HT are the holy grail in PvZ or even PvT in the latter case. If you ever get there, your army is invincible. But you will never get there. Carrier build times are just too long.
The other problem with air compositions is that there is nothing stopping the zerg from making a ton of ultras/roaches/cracklings and just levelling your production facilities while your void rays and carriers spend a full ten minutes dishing out scratch damage. Giving up ground control for air control is never a good idea as protoss.
Carrier/void ray is godawful in tvp, but I can see it working in pvz if you can get to that stage. Since we both agree on that point, the only problem is how to get to that stage without dying. I personally think that as long as the possiblities are there, once people get better at playing the game, get tighter timings and/or figure out some specific style of play that allows for the transition, it'll start happening more often. On February 04 2012 08:24 tuho12345 wrote:On February 04 2012 07:05 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 23:28 Mandalor wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. How is it easy if the percentages are even? If it was easy, wouldn't P have the numbers skewed in their favor? Or is this the good old terrans-are-better-players-argument? And what would the voidrays do in your example? You can add in whatever reasoning you want behind the TvP matchup. Whether it's the good old terran-player-are-better, to terrans all-inning and winning in the midgame to cover up for protoss stupid lategame strengths. I think it's a combination of all of those factors, including some I've forgotten to mention. Also the voidrays are there to stomp the corruptors/be all around awesome. On February 03 2012 23:28 Jakkerr wrote:On February 03 2012 22:29 Dalavita wrote:On February 03 2012 04:13 Lorch wrote:
And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations. Statistically balanced =! good matchup. Protoss still has it far to easy in TvP, which is what all the whine was about to begin with. On the ZvP topic. I wonder if a transition from the stalker/colossus force to carrier/voidray/ht with a couple of archons would be the way to go in lategame zvp. The only thing I can see beating that is mass hydra coupled with infestors, and even then it becomes a battle of storms/feedbacks vs fungals and "splitting" hydras" The issue is how expensive an army like that is, and I guess the way for protoss to do that would be to get 3-4 bases with the standard deathball and turtle up while trading in their standard units while slowly working their way up to 3/3 air and the carrier/voidray switch, sort of how a terran switches to ghost/tank from marine/tank. It has been tried, and it sucked. The only way to win superlate game PvZ is archon toilet. Terran has more micro in fights then Protoss yes but that's kinda what you signed up for by playing Terran. I would love to have an army that becomes 10times stronger if I micro it perfectly. When has it been tried exactly? Also I don't mind terran requiring a lot of micro at all and I wouldn't play it if it didn't. If anything I hope protoss becomes more micro and skill reliant than it currently is On February 03 2012 23:41 robih wrote:
lol... try building a round of corruptors
there you have your counter to every lategame P there is except for archon toilet and HT (which do way too little dmg on their own) A maxed void ray/carrier army will stomp corruptors, which is why you mix in the void rays to begin with. lmao I thought you were having some seriously good ideas but then turn out to be mass carriers/VRs hahaha. Oh god the irony. Have fun in bronze where Zerg let you mass VRs/Carriers and attack you at 30 mins mark I guess. What a story mark. Are you a certified idiot? You are probably the exact sort of person who has been in the way before regarding new play. Elitist prick - Voidray/carrier is the most costeffective unit composition in the whole game, it is practically impossible to beat. Protoss have time and money to get it. But they persist on remaining 300 gas archons/250 gas colussus and gas costly stalkers. Voidray/carrier sure as hell isn't much more costly. I hope protoss keeps having huge loss rate, they deserve it - They are infuriatingly persistent in keeping to their plans. Took you a year to even use the mothership.
Seriously do you even know how to play the game? Protoss can x2 robo easily and they don't need more than 5 colossi or 5 archons to be cost effective, but when it come down to carriers and VRs you need 6-8 carriers and 10+ VRs to be a serious deal. Now how many stargates do you need to build that much units when you know it take forever to build??? invest to much in stargate and air units equal less minerals and gases for gateway units, and nobody can go pure air without ground support.
You sir need to play some Protoss for real.
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On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time.
Absolutely true, I played main as Protoss at the beginning and just got a new account as Terran for 2 months. Even at top diamond Terran I could lose to a platinum Protoss easily in a 200 vs 200 battle with much better micro and upgrade. Now I figure out I must attack at all cost with the initial 24 units army I had to slow Protoss down and denying the third base as much as possible. Playing TvP is really much harder than PvT for me now.
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On February 04 2012 10:33 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time. Absolutely true, I played main as Protoss at the beginning and just got a new account as Terran for 2 months. Even at top diamond Terran I could lose to a platinum Protoss easily in a 200 vs 200 battle with much better micro and upgrade. Now I figure out I must attack at all cost with the initial 24 units army I had to slow Protoss down and denying the third base as much as possible. Playing TvP is really much harder than PvT for me now.
I don't agree with him at all. I think he is forgetting that late game Terran doesn't actually need more than 20-30 workers and his army will actually be much larger than the Protoss army (one of the reasons why splitting his army is a good idea). Yes I agree that you have to be aggressive at times (like trying to snipe key units like sentrys, colos, ht, even stalkers). But don't hate on the Protoss for not always being the aggressor either. Remember all the times you played Protoss and you lost just because you decided to be a little bit aggressive. It simply doesn't pay for the smaller protoss army to be out on the map most of the time, thus Protoss has to resort to defense and mass warp-ins or blink stalkers to get map presence without risking the game outright.
edit: Diamond Toss who loses to Plat Terran all the time btw. It doesn't really mean that much, and with all the inactive people in Diamond I actually think a good number of Platinum players are better :S
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On February 04 2012 10:33 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 09:24 Zeetox wrote:
MMA said in interview for SK: "TvP has change since BW. [...] Now in SC2 you have to be very aggresive, do many drops and just be aggresive so Protoss can't max up to 200 supply and roll over you with his army. At this stage of the matchup I think Terran can't win if he doesn't drop and plays aggresively, because in straight up macro game, where both players just max out, Terran can't really win."
Problem is, it's hard to be aggresive unless you are MMA. You need a lot of APM to avoid blink stalkers and HTs with dropships, dropping at 2-3 places at a time. Absolutely true, I played main as Protoss at the beginning and just got a new account as Terran for 2 months. Even at top diamond Terran I could lose to a platinum Protoss easily in a 200 vs 200 battle with much better micro and upgrade. Now I figure out I must attack at all cost with the initial 24 units army I had to slow Protoss down and denying the third base as much as possible. Playing TvP is really much harder than PvT for me now.
You think that's bad, I regularly beat Masters Terrans, occasionally win Masters mirrors, but can still lose to golds in PvZs. Just a tough match to get your head around, the builds that tend to be popular on here are good because they assume the other player actually drones and doesn't build units at arbitrary timings, dealing with unpredictable players makes PvZ super tough for me because of the general rigidity of Protoss builds if you FFE. I mean I just seem to have a mental block in the matchup, but hopefully I can overcome that with practice, my play still has a lot of flaws.
Not complaining per se about the matchup, I think the best HoTS ability will be Nexus recall, that way I can actually pressure without the possibility of losing everything due to being unable to retreat.
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You say zerg is getting a little too good? And PvT is favored for protoss? WAT. People have only been saying this for about a month. Not until you get data that you start to stop looking at it as Terran and Protoss crying. Well done people.
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EPT
