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isleyofthenorth
Austria894 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:51 Tobberoth wrote: That last argument is terrible. Sweden has the best pro lineup of all of Europe while being one of the more expensive countries to live in. your argument is terrible. where did i ever say that was the sole reason? its just ONE of several | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:53 isleyofthenorth wrote: your argument is terrible. where did i ever say that was the sole reason? its just ONE of several How is it one of several reasons? The whole reasoning behind it is terrible, I don't even get where you got that argument from. "Ukraina problably has tons of good players because it's a poor country, even though the majority of countries with an impressive roster of players are rich countries like Korea, Sweden, Netherlands etc". | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:57 Tobberoth wrote: How is it one of several reasons? The whole reasoning behind it is terrible, I don't even get where you got that argument from. "Ukraina problably has tons of good players because it's a poor country, even though the majority of countries with an impressive roster of players are rich countries like Korea, Sweden, Netherlands etc". Honestly, it's very true. Ukrainian players, especially, are capable of living very comfortably on a progamers salary. I've had this conversation with many Ukrainian pros. Their answers are all very similar. In Ukraine, professional Starcraft makes them high earners in comparison to other people in the country. It makes the job more sought after than it would in a place like the USA where pros can be looked down on by the average joe. | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
USA + Canada ≈ 350M inhabitants EU + Russia + Ukraine ≈ 700M inhabitants South Korea ≈ 50M inhabitants Winnings per inhabitants, top 4-50 for Europe and America and top 10 for SK: USA + Canada ≈ 4,1e-4 EU+ Russia + Ukraine ≈ 8,4e-4 South Korea = 290e-4 So per inhabitant, Europeans are winning twice as much as Americans and South Koreans are winning 70 times more as Americans and 35 times more than Europeans. It's a very rough overview and I'm not sure it actually tells us anything, but that's the numbers, anyway. | ||
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isleyofthenorth
Austria894 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:57 Tobberoth wrote: How is it one of several reasons? The whole reasoning behind it is terrible, I don't even get where you got that argument from. "Ukraina problably has tons of good players because it's a poor country, even though the majority of countries with an impressive roster of players are rich countries like Korea, Sweden, Netherlands etc". Korea is different, pc gaming is a bigger part of their culture of any other country. I dont know about sweden, but they seem to have tons of gamers too compared to other european countries so its just likelier that more swedes go pro in starcraft. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:45 MrBitter wrote: I suspect that a lot of these statistics also hinge on that fact that the European tournament scene is a lot more active. For every daily event in NA, EU has 2, and 500 euro weekly and monthly events are incredible common here, and these tourneys are almost exclusively played in, and thus won by Europeans There is just money to win on EU tournaments, thanks to the long established ESL and Zotac, weekly tournaments are very common. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
However they also have at least one top NA players attending them pretty much every event and more important there is always at least 2-4 top pro Koreans playing. So it is not like the EU players can just go and collect the cash either. Last 2 DH has not had a EU player in the finals for instance. You have a few examples of EU players that have been good at earning cash by targeting "cash" tournaments, Sjow with 43500$ in prize money (7th highest of all foreigners) comes to mind. Hard to believe but Sjow is actually the terran with the highest prize money earnings out of all of foreign terrans. Regarding online tournaments, they are still a very small part of the of the total prize pool. Kas which is one of the most active and successful online players in the SC2 scene is "only" 17th player among foreigners. | ||
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:08 Marou wrote: Interesting numbers you have compiled here, i think MrBitter nails it here : There is just money to win on EU tournaments, thanks to the long established ESL and Zotac, weekly tournaments are very common. Omg at this : On February 01 2012 22:06 iMAniaC wrote: One could also take into account the populations: USA + Canada ≈ 350M inhabitants EU + Russia + Ukraine ≈ 700M inhabitants South Korea ≈ 50M inhabitants Winnings per inhabitants, top 4-50 for Europe and America and top 10 for SK: USA + Canada ≈ 4,1e-4 EU+ Russia + Ukraine ≈ 8,4e-4 South Korea = 290e-4 So per inhabitant, Europeans are winning twice as much as Americans and South Koreans are winning 70 times more as Americans and 35 times more than Europeans. It's a very rough overview and I'm not sure it actually tells us anything, but that's the numbers, anyway. So you are taking the top 50 players of a region (which is a very small sample size) and put it in perspective with the whole demographic. Although it's a nice effort, this numbers doesn't mean anything at all T_T | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:53 isleyofthenorth wrote: your argument is terrible. where did i ever say that was the sole reason? its just ONE of several That argument would make sense... IF White-Ra, Dimaga nd Strelok would not have been SC/BW "pro's" (as far as foreigners could become that) where barely any money could be made. Don't forget, you don't just become a "earning" progamer because you want this. For every poor eastern european with a fast enough computer there are probably 2-3 rich students with too much time in western europe  . | ||
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isleyofthenorth
Austria894 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:12 mTwTT1 wrote: alot of the eu players have won like 40-50% of their winnings from online cups TT, na has shitty online cups compared to the eu scene.. since the release of the game ive played in like 3-4 online cups max cant you enter eu cups? the lag and timezones(early afternoon) cant be THAT bad. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:06 MrBitter wrote: Honestly, it's very true. Ukrainian players, especially, are capable of living very comfortably on a progamers salary. I've had this conversation with many Ukrainian pros. Their answers are all very similar. In Ukraine, professional Starcraft makes them high earners in comparison to other people in the country. It makes the job more sought after than it would in a place like the USA where pros can be looked down on by the average joe. I'm not disputing that. However, I would make the case that regardless of how cheap or expensive a country is, if you're top dog in SC2 in that country such as naniwa for sweden and whitera for ukraine, you will live comfortably of your income, while if you're less of a "star", you will live like the average joe. If it was a huge deal that players get an acceptable status from progaming, we should see a lot more ukranian pros relative to expensive countries, and we should expect to see many other eastern european countries with far stronger SC2 rosters than we do. I just don't think this reason has any impact at all on a countrys performance in SC2, I think it's all about infrastructure, which is why korea is top dog without contest. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:06 iMAniaC wrote: One could also take into account the populations: USA + Canada ≈ 350M inhabitants EU + Russia + Ukraine ≈ 700M inhabitants South Korea ≈ 50M inhabitants Winnings per inhabitants, top 4-50 for Europe and America and top 10 for SK: USA + Canada ≈ 4,1e-4 EU+ Russia + Ukraine ≈ 8,4e-4 South Korea = 290e-4 So per inhabitant, Europeans are winning twice as much as Americans and South Koreans are winning 70 times more as Americans and 35 times more than Europeans. It's a very rough overview and I'm not sure it actually tells us anything, but that's the numbers, anyway. Hehe yeah it is interesting and could be a factor, but still I think culture/history is the key here. I wonder how India would be doing in this calculation ^^ | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:12 mTwTT1 wrote: alot of the eu players have won like 40-50% of their winnings from online cups TT, na has shitty online cups compared to the eu scene.. since the release of the game ive played in like 3-4 online cups max No one's stopping you from playing in our online cups, Payam | ||
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plouer
France32 Posts
the top 5 is maybe the same but EU have dozen of good players while in korea the top five is alone in the dark and gm with nobody to play ladder i think previous comment are right and if we compare to the number of gamer i'm pretty confident whe can find an heavy correlation | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:53 isleyofthenorth wrote: your argument is terrible. where did i ever say that was the sole reason? its just ONE of several pretty sure you're argument is a lot worse. the ukraine has top players because its a big place where its too cold to go outside some of the time, aka stay in and go on the computer. the fact it is poorer than some european countries is nothing to do with it. the recurring theme of countries having good esports scenes is how much time they spend on the PC, same as any sport its a grassroots numbers game. the main cause of increased PC use in the 1st world is it being cold outside. On February 01 2012 22:14 plouer wrote: but EU scene is by far superior to the NA scene. the top 5 is maybe the same but EU have dozen of good players while in korea the top five is alone in the dark and gm with nobody to play ladder i think previous comment are right and if we compare to the number of gamer i'm pretty confident whe can find an heavy correlation i wouldnt say that at all. im not gonna comment on the numbers but as a general feel, i dont look at any NA or EU player and say, no one from the other side of the atlantic cant beat them, the field is so close together that it appears to be either luck or the fact that europe has a higher population that causes any disparity in winnings. the western scene is so clumped together in terms of skill that on any 1 day either 'side' could win a league, so theres little point in saying 1 side is better. | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:10 Marou wrote: Omg at this : So you are taking the top 50 players of a region (which is a very small sample size) and put it in perspective with the whole demographic. Although it's a nice effort, this numbers doesn't mean anything at all T_T No, I actually took only the top 10 from Souh Korea, further invalidating my results  However, even though the method itself was catastrophic, I believe the general picture isn't that far off (I'll leave it up to someone else to define what factor my "that" represents ). | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
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