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On February 14 2012 03:41 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:36 NewK wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:21 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On February 14 2012 01:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 22:51 raser wrote:
would be fun with another EU vs NA showmatch like we had a year ago or something Depending on the format NA could absolutely win this. Why do you think that? :p Pretty sure Eu would close that tourney no matter the format A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. What? Is this tournament The World vs Europe? You're claiming you're making an "NA" team but you're adding in Major (south american) and Select (korean). Either way- Sweden alone with its 9mil population would smash this. NaNiWa ThorZaIN SaSe MorroW SjoW  Mexico is part of North America plus Major I believe is a US citizen anyway even if it's not his country of birth. Select represents the USA at tournaments, therefore he qualifies as American just like countless football players do not play for their country of birth. Your Sweden team is not far better than an NA team. All of my NA players could absolute beat any of those Swedish players. We're not talking a lineup of MMA, MVP, MC, DRG and Nestea here.
Err... what? He does not reperesent america. He is not an american citizen. There is ZERO football players who reperesents another country without being a citizen so your arguments are out the window. If you ever check LR threads or liquipedia, he only reperesents Korea. MC lived in Sweden during dreamhack sthlm invitational so I'll replace SjoW with MC in my list then by your logic Oh, and no. Major is not an american citizen and Mexico is a part of Central america.
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EU so much better, no matter what format, cant even believe there is any doubt about that.
Nerchio
Kas
Stephano
Mana
WhiteRa
Anytime that team would win. And there is like 5-10 players beside that ready to step in and do about as good an effort. You got a team where you barely can match EU on 4-5 spot.
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I do wish they would have another showmatch because all this debate is basically useless unless someone pulls out some tournament results instead of going "Oh SWEDEN we win" or "HuK is soo good" In reality this is like having 2 third world countries try to prove themselves that they aren't the worst. Mean while SK is a first world country.
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On February 14 2012 03:55 DreamChaser wrote:
I do wish they would have another showmatch because all this debate is basically useless unless someone pulls out some tournament results instead of going "Oh SWEDEN we win" or "HuK is soo good" In reality this is like having 2 third world countries try to prove themselves that they aren't the worst. Mean while SK is a first world country.
But for how long will that result be eligable this time then? But I do like your metaphor or simile or whatever it's called 
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On February 14 2012 03:53 NewK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:41 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:36 NewK wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:21 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On February 14 2012 01:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 22:51 raser wrote:
would be fun with another EU vs NA showmatch like we had a year ago or something Depending on the format NA could absolutely win this. Why do you think that? :p Pretty sure Eu would close that tourney no matter the format A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. What? Is this tournament The World vs Europe? You're claiming you're making an "NA" team but you're adding in Major (south american) and Select (korean). Either way- Sweden alone with its 9mil population would smash this. NaNiWa ThorZaIN SaSe MorroW SjoW Mexico is part of North America plus Major I believe is a US citizen anyway even if it's not his country of birth. Select represents the USA at tournaments, therefore he qualifies as American just like countless football players do not play for their country of birth. Your Sweden team is not far better than an NA team. All of my NA players could absolute beat any of those Swedish players. We're not talking a lineup of MMA, MVP, MC, DRG and Nestea here. Err... what? He does not reperesent america. He is not an american citizen. There is ZERO football players who reperesents another country without being a citizen so your arguments are out the window. If you ever check LR threads or liquipedia, he only reperesents Korea. MC lived in Sweden during dreamhack sthlm invitational so I'll replace SjoW with MC in my list then by your logic Oh, and no. Major is not an american citizen and Mexico is a part of Central america.
Select has lived in the US for several years and represented the USA at Blizzcon twice.
Central America is not a continent. Mexico is part of North America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America
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On February 14 2012 03:55 DreamChaser wrote:
I do wish they would have another showmatch because all this debate is basically useless unless someone pulls out some tournament results instead of going "Oh SWEDEN we win" or "HuK is soo good" In reality this is like having 2 third world countries try to prove themselves that they aren't the worst. Mean while SK is a first world country.
It wouldn't really mean a lot as both sides are capable of winning.
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On February 14 2012 03:46 softan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:43 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:38 softan wrote:On February 14 2012 03:20 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 02:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 02:21 Frankon wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:21 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On February 14 2012 01:15 Seraphone wrote:
[quote]
Depending on the format NA could absolutely win this. Why do you think that? :p Pretty sure Eu would close that tourney no matter the format A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. I'll raise you Kas, Stephano, White-RA, Ret, MaNa and the sub bench of Thorzain, Morrow, Beasty, Happy, Grubby and especially for Select - Goody, Nerchio Depth is worthless, you only need five players and the five I picked for NA could compete with any EU team. EU has a lot more good players but the best NA players are as good as any EU players. Not really, just try thinking deeper and you'll realize that EU has way more talented players, just check any team leagues or other cups, and you'll realize that eu players are better. Yeah NA has palyers like HuK(doing terrible lately) and Select but what else? Desrow? Destiny? while EU has Stephano who would take any of NA players easily, Kas, Naniwa, DIMAGA, Thorzain, Ret and lost of players who could beat any of NA top's/ You should consider reading sometime. I fully agree that EU has more good players, but in an NA vs EU showmatch using any format currently used by IPL, GSTL, NASTL or EG Masters etc.. then NA has a good chance of winning. Which is the point of the post I originally quoted. The difference isn't that huge between top tier players. There's ALWAYS a pretty good chance. Even the very best players lose 30% of the time or something like that They'd stand a chance against top 5 korean team as well. They'd probably lose and they'd probably lose vs the top 5 eu players as well I think. Obviously they'd have a much better chance against europeans than against top 5 koreans though. Maybe it's bias that's talking but I do think eu has a slightly better top 5 lineup in comparison to na and if you go further, like top 20 the disparity grows bigger. But korea owns everyone, in both quanitity and quality. If the Korean lineup was MMA, MVP, MC, DRG and Nestea I really struggle to see anything beating that with a better than 1 in 20 ratio. The EU top 5 is probably marginally better (because Idra and Huk are in poor form and NA lacks a 5th player) but NA could easily won comfortably on a good day. I still think Idra and Huk are better than sheth and kiwikaki despite their poor form. I'm having real trouble seeing your na team beating EU. You lack a 4th and a 5th player.
Sheth's a really good player who always excels in team leagues and has excellent ZvP for sniping Naniwa and Sase (who are weak PvZ).
On February 14 2012 03:51 demitap wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:34 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 03:20 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 02:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 02:21 Frankon wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:21 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On February 14 2012 01:15 Seraphone wrote:
[quote]
Depending on the format NA could absolutely win this. Why do you think that? :p Pretty sure Eu would close that tourney no matter the format A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. I'll raise you Kas, Stephano, White-RA, Ret, MaNa and the sub bench of Thorzain, Morrow, Beasty, Happy, Grubby and especially for Select - Goody, Nerchio Depth is worthless, you only need five players and the five I picked for NA could compete with any EU team. EU has a lot more good players but the best NA players are as good as any EU players. Not really, just try thinking deeper and you'll realize that EU has way more talented players, just check any team leagues or other cups, and you'll realize that eu players are better. Yeah NA has palyers like HuK(doing terrible lately) and Select but what else? Desrow? Destiny? while EU has Stephano who would take any of NA players easily, Kas, Naniwa, DIMAGA, Thorzain, Ret and lost of players who could beat any of NA top's/ You should consider reading sometime. I fully agree that EU has more good players, but in an NA vs EU showmatch using any format currently used by IPL, GSTL, NASTL or EG Masters etc.. then NA has a good chance of winning. Which is the point of the post I originally quoted. Not a singe chance. Case closed. Huk, Idra, Select and Sheth are more than capable of beating any European player without it even being an upset. Huk is the most successfull and best foreigner of all time and Idra is the 3rd most successful. HuK? IdrA? IdrA is far from top europiend level, even tho he plays sc2 full time, and huk? huk was good, now he is realy jus a mediocre, i cant remember what tournament it was, but he even didnt made it out of group stage with only europeans and na wihout koreans, sheth is quite good, select might take game of someone, if it would be 4 top europeans against your 4 top NA you mentioned that i think results would be somethink like 4-1 if select would win and 4-2 if sheth would win also.
Last month Idra played badly but he's still won IEM China, took 4th at MLG Orlando and won ASUS ROG Invitation within the last few months.
Huk is also slumping but was Code S for most of 2011 and alongside Stephano is the only player to win a major LAN with a reasonable number of good Koreans (which he did twice).
Naniwa, Sase, Stephano, Morrow, Thorzain have all had loads of tournaments where they have played like total shit and lost to bad players. Everyone is a scrub on their worst day.
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I'm fairly certain that more top Americans go to Korea to train than Europeans as well.
That should have something to do with the results.
As well as the # of tournaments in Europe compared to North America
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On February 14 2012 04:05 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:46 softan wrote:On February 14 2012 03:43 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:38 softan wrote:On February 14 2012 03:20 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 02:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 02:21 Frankon wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:21 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
[quote]
Why do you think that? :p Pretty sure Eu would close that tourney no matter the format A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. I'll raise you Kas, Stephano, White-RA, Ret, MaNa and the sub bench of Thorzain, Morrow, Beasty, Happy, Grubby and especially for Select - Goody, Nerchio Depth is worthless, you only need five players and the five I picked for NA could compete with any EU team. EU has a lot more good players but the best NA players are as good as any EU players. Not really, just try thinking deeper and you'll realize that EU has way more talented players, just check any team leagues or other cups, and you'll realize that eu players are better. Yeah NA has palyers like HuK(doing terrible lately) and Select but what else? Desrow? Destiny? while EU has Stephano who would take any of NA players easily, Kas, Naniwa, DIMAGA, Thorzain, Ret and lost of players who could beat any of NA top's/ You should consider reading sometime. I fully agree that EU has more good players, but in an NA vs EU showmatch using any format currently used by IPL, GSTL, NASTL or EG Masters etc.. then NA has a good chance of winning. Which is the point of the post I originally quoted. The difference isn't that huge between top tier players. There's ALWAYS a pretty good chance. Even the very best players lose 30% of the time or something like that They'd stand a chance against top 5 korean team as well. They'd probably lose and they'd probably lose vs the top 5 eu players as well I think. Obviously they'd have a much better chance against europeans than against top 5 koreans though. Maybe it's bias that's talking but I do think eu has a slightly better top 5 lineup in comparison to na and if you go further, like top 20 the disparity grows bigger. But korea owns everyone, in both quanitity and quality. If the Korean lineup was MMA, MVP, MC, DRG and Nestea I really struggle to see anything beating that with a better than 1 in 20 ratio. The EU top 5 is probably marginally better (because Idra and Huk are in poor form and NA lacks a 5th player) but NA could easily won comfortably on a good day. I still think Idra and Huk are better than sheth and kiwikaki despite their poor form. I'm having real trouble seeing your na team beating EU. You lack a 4th and a 5th player. Sheth's a really good player who always excels in team leagues and has excellent ZvP for sniping Naniwa and Sase (who are weak PvZ). Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:51 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 03:20 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 02:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 02:21 Frankon wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:21 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
[quote]
Why do you think that? :p Pretty sure Eu would close that tourney no matter the format A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. I'll raise you Kas, Stephano, White-RA, Ret, MaNa and the sub bench of Thorzain, Morrow, Beasty, Happy, Grubby and especially for Select - Goody, Nerchio Depth is worthless, you only need five players and the five I picked for NA could compete with any EU team. EU has a lot more good players but the best NA players are as good as any EU players. Not really, just try thinking deeper and you'll realize that EU has way more talented players, just check any team leagues or other cups, and you'll realize that eu players are better. Yeah NA has palyers like HuK(doing terrible lately) and Select but what else? Desrow? Destiny? while EU has Stephano who would take any of NA players easily, Kas, Naniwa, DIMAGA, Thorzain, Ret and lost of players who could beat any of NA top's/ You should consider reading sometime. I fully agree that EU has more good players, but in an NA vs EU showmatch using any format currently used by IPL, GSTL, NASTL or EG Masters etc.. then NA has a good chance of winning. Which is the point of the post I originally quoted. Not a singe chance. Case closed. Huk, Idra, Select and Sheth are more than capable of beating any European player without it even being an upset. Huk is the most successfull and best foreigner of all time and Idra is the 3rd most successful. HuK? IdrA? IdrA is far from top europiend level, even tho he plays sc2 full time, and huk? huk was good, now he is realy jus a mediocre, i cant remember what tournament it was, but he even didnt made it out of group stage with only europeans and na wihout koreans, sheth is quite good, select might take game of someone, if it would be 4 top europeans against your 4 top NA you mentioned that i think results would be somethink like 4-1 if select would win and 4-2 if sheth would win also. Last month Idra played badly but he's still won IEM China, took 4th at MLG Orlando and won ASUS ROG Invitation within the last few months. Huk is also slumping but was Code S for most of 2011 and alongside Stephano is the only player to win a major LAN with a reasonable number of good Koreans (which he did twice). Naniwa, Sase, Stephano, Morrow, Thorzain have all had loads of tournaments where they have played like total shit and lost to bad players. Everyone is a scrub on their worst day.
when was IEM China? like Half a yeah ago? since then IdrA havent won anythink, and huk? dramhack years ago? mlg half a ears ago? while nani took MLG global invitation 1st and providence 2nd beating koreans like MVP and NesTea (twice), stephano is raping cups online and won at least 2 major events in half a year, check liquipedia for more results if you still think that NA could win.
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Europe hosts a TON of weekly,daily and small tornaments, compared to na
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I'm fairly certain Stephano is from Nebraska.
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On February 14 2012 04:13 demitap wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:05 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 softan wrote:On February 14 2012 03:43 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:38 softan wrote:On February 14 2012 03:20 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 02:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 02:21 Frankon wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:
[quote]
A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. I'll raise you Kas, Stephano, White-RA, Ret, MaNa and the sub bench of Thorzain, Morrow, Beasty, Happy, Grubby and especially for Select - Goody, Nerchio Depth is worthless, you only need five players and the five I picked for NA could compete with any EU team. EU has a lot more good players but the best NA players are as good as any EU players. Not really, just try thinking deeper and you'll realize that EU has way more talented players, just check any team leagues or other cups, and you'll realize that eu players are better. Yeah NA has palyers like HuK(doing terrible lately) and Select but what else? Desrow? Destiny? while EU has Stephano who would take any of NA players easily, Kas, Naniwa, DIMAGA, Thorzain, Ret and lost of players who could beat any of NA top's/ You should consider reading sometime. I fully agree that EU has more good players, but in an NA vs EU showmatch using any format currently used by IPL, GSTL, NASTL or EG Masters etc.. then NA has a good chance of winning. Which is the point of the post I originally quoted. The difference isn't that huge between top tier players. There's ALWAYS a pretty good chance. Even the very best players lose 30% of the time or something like that They'd stand a chance against top 5 korean team as well. They'd probably lose and they'd probably lose vs the top 5 eu players as well I think. Obviously they'd have a much better chance against europeans than against top 5 koreans though. Maybe it's bias that's talking but I do think eu has a slightly better top 5 lineup in comparison to na and if you go further, like top 20 the disparity grows bigger. But korea owns everyone, in both quanitity and quality. If the Korean lineup was MMA, MVP, MC, DRG and Nestea I really struggle to see anything beating that with a better than 1 in 20 ratio. The EU top 5 is probably marginally better (because Idra and Huk are in poor form and NA lacks a 5th player) but NA could easily won comfortably on a good day. I still think Idra and Huk are better than sheth and kiwikaki despite their poor form. I'm having real trouble seeing your na team beating EU. You lack a 4th and a 5th player. Sheth's a really good player who always excels in team leagues and has excellent ZvP for sniping Naniwa and Sase (who are weak PvZ). On February 14 2012 03:51 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 03:20 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 demitap wrote:On February 14 2012 02:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 02:21 Frankon wrote:On February 14 2012 01:54 Seraphone wrote:
[quote]
A team of Huk, Idra, Select, Sheth and Kiwikaki (or maybe Major) is capable of beating any EU 5 man team in a Pro League or Winners League format. Europe could definitely win as well but NA would have a good chance. I'll raise you Kas, Stephano, White-RA, Ret, MaNa and the sub bench of Thorzain, Morrow, Beasty, Happy, Grubby and especially for Select - Goody, Nerchio Depth is worthless, you only need five players and the five I picked for NA could compete with any EU team. EU has a lot more good players but the best NA players are as good as any EU players. Not really, just try thinking deeper and you'll realize that EU has way more talented players, just check any team leagues or other cups, and you'll realize that eu players are better. Yeah NA has palyers like HuK(doing terrible lately) and Select but what else? Desrow? Destiny? while EU has Stephano who would take any of NA players easily, Kas, Naniwa, DIMAGA, Thorzain, Ret and lost of players who could beat any of NA top's/ You should consider reading sometime. I fully agree that EU has more good players, but in an NA vs EU showmatch using any format currently used by IPL, GSTL, NASTL or EG Masters etc.. then NA has a good chance of winning. Which is the point of the post I originally quoted. Not a singe chance. Case closed. Huk, Idra, Select and Sheth are more than capable of beating any European player without it even being an upset. Huk is the most successfull and best foreigner of all time and Idra is the 3rd most successful. HuK? IdrA? IdrA is far from top europiend level, even tho he plays sc2 full time, and huk? huk was good, now he is realy jus a mediocre, i cant remember what tournament it was, but he even didnt made it out of group stage with only europeans and na wihout koreans, sheth is quite good, select might take game of someone, if it would be 4 top europeans against your 4 top NA you mentioned that i think results would be somethink like 4-1 if select would win and 4-2 if sheth would win also. Last month Idra played badly but he's still won IEM China, took 4th at MLG Orlando and won ASUS ROG Invitation within the last few months. Huk is also slumping but was Code S for most of 2011 and alongside Stephano is the only player to win a major LAN with a reasonable number of good Koreans (which he did twice). Naniwa, Sase, Stephano, Morrow, Thorzain have all had loads of tournaments where they have played like total shit and lost to bad players. Everyone is a scrub on their worst day. when was IEM China? like Half a yeah ago? since then IdrA havent won anythink, and huk? dramhack years ago? mlg half a ears ago? while nani took MLG global invitation 1st and providence 2nd beating koreans like MVP and NesTea (twice), stephano is raping cups online and won at least 2 major events in half a year, check liquipedia for more results if you still think that NA could win.
Firstly, no one gives a shit about online cups. They mean nothing at all ever. You either win on LAN or you didn't win.
Naniwa's Providence run is a bit of a farce because of the format but regardless it was a good result (but don't you dare for one second act like him coming second from a starting position of the semi final in even in the same universe as Leenock coming first from the open bracket). He's still been facerolled against Koreans since then many times.
Stephano has been playing badly when it matters since ESWC. He didn't really deliver in Korea, played badly at Dreamhack and Homestory and failed to qualify for either IEM. He can win all the online cups he likes but they don't mean anything.
IEM China was 4 months ago and ASUS ROG was 2 months ago. Which is more recent than the last time Stephano won a major LAN and Naniwa hasn't won a LAN since MLG Dallas (a now meaningless event seen as it lacked Koreans).
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On February 14 2012 04:32 Seraphone wrote:
Stephano has been playing badly when it matters since ESWC. He didn't really deliver in Korea, played badly at Dreamhack and Homestory and failed to qualify for either IEM. He can win all the online cups he likes but they don't mean anything.
IEM China was 4 months ago and ASUS ROG was 2 months ago. Which is more recent than the last time Stephano won a major LAN and Naniwa hasn't won a LAN since MLG Dallas (a now meaningless event seen as it lacked Koreans).
1. Stephano won the IPL 4 UK Qualifiers which were held after ASUS ROG.
2. Naniwa won the MLG Invitational by beating Nesta and MVP in an offline setting, for comparision at ASUS ROG Idra played Sjow, WhiteRa and Select.
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Interesting read but I don't know if all of these numbers are factored in correctly, like others have said before me, the salaries and sponsors, ect. don't seem to be factored into these. Interesting read nevertheless! Thanks!
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Wish there was some kind of showdown with BO7 proleague formate and a ace match with EU vs NA vs KR. That would've been so awesome.
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On February 14 2012 05:09 Taiki wrote:
Wish there was some kind of showdown with BO7 proleague formate and a ace match with EU vs NA vs KR. That would've been so awesome.
Nation wars would be awesome provided there's enough money on the line to make all the best players play.
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Sweden,Germany + Ukraine would beat NA :D
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This has been addressed several times, NA is weaker than the other servers barring what Idra/Huk manage to win.
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On February 14 2012 04:10 TyrionSC2 wrote:
I'm fairly certain that more top Americans go to Korea to train than Europeans as well.
That should have something to do with the results.
As well as the # of tournaments in Europe compared to North America
Amount of players going to Korea to train is fairly even.
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More European pros---> More prizemoney won by europen pros.
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EPT
