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On February 01 2012 10:00 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:44 bennyaus wrote:On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion. It doesn't seem harsh, it seems retarded. HuK is in Code A because last GSL he didn't get to Code S Ro8. He beat Puzzle, Clide and Nestea, and then lost twice to Leenock, and Keen (both pretty quality players). Today he had the worst last 2 maps for PvZ and got cheesed on the last one, with a near unscoutable cheese that would beat all other Protoss if unscouted. Therefore he isn't close to the level of Bumblebee who has never made Code S before. Yeah, nah. That's how GSL should work? You play well, you stay in. You don't play well, or don't practice, or focus on another game for a few weeks, you drop out. If HuK still has the Code S quality in him, he'll regain his Code S spot like he did before. But last night he was not on par with the Koreans.
If you base a players quality off of one set of games, then I don't know what to say to you. Based on your logic, Leenock is clearly not a Code S level Zerg because he was knocked out of Code S in R32. I think you're much wiser taking a look at a players history in a competition in making an informed decision about it. IdrA hasn't performed in GSL since the field was vastly less stacked, so the only recent evidence are all his losses in Code S/A, but HuK has some recent history where he performed pretty well so it is hard to bundle him in the same basket.
Last night, they were both not massively outplayed either, IdrA (as much as it pains me to say, as not his biggest fan), was on a razor edge in both of his games, where he was allined with extremely strong allins twice and barely failed to hold them. HuK similarly didn't really make many mistakes but was punished for not getting lucky and scouting the allin in game 3, and for what I feel is a map imbalance in game 2 (although his build put him behind).
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Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
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They should stop. if I were a korean, I'd feel that usually it is a waste of a spot since many foreigners just die in their match to koreans and that someone more deserving could've had the spot.
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isn't there an option for just "keep it the way it is"?
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On February 01 2012 09:28 naggerNZ wrote:
Oh god, these threads keep coming. People need to stop reading too much into single bo3s.
Huk's made a few code S runs. Idra made a few good runs too but that was a long time ago. Beyond that, where's the foreigner success in code S?
Also the Chinese scene hasn't shown anything impressive. IEM China (Ghanzou sp?) was supposed to be the arena where the Chinese finally showed off their top talent and it just didn't happen.
E: I'm sure no Koreans are going to complain about being handed walkovers in Ro32. But spots in Code S really shouldn't go to people who can't compete there.
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On February 01 2012 10:08 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 10:00 Whatson wrote:On February 01 2012 09:44 bennyaus wrote:On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion. It doesn't seem harsh, it seems retarded. HuK is in Code A because last GSL he didn't get to Code S Ro8. He beat Puzzle, Clide and Nestea, and then lost twice to Leenock, and Keen (both pretty quality players). Today he had the worst last 2 maps for PvZ and got cheesed on the last one, with a near unscoutable cheese that would beat all other Protoss if unscouted. Therefore he isn't close to the level of Bumblebee who has never made Code S before. Yeah, nah. That's how GSL should work? You play well, you stay in. You don't play well, or don't practice, or focus on another game for a few weeks, you drop out. If HuK still has the Code S quality in him, he'll regain his Code S spot like he did before. But last night he was not on par with the Koreans. If you base a players quality off of one set of games, then I don't know what to say to you. Based on your logic, Leenock is clearly not a Code S level Zerg because he was knocked out of Code S in R32. I think you're much wiser taking a look at a players history in a competition in making an informed decision about it. IdrA hasn't performed in GSL since the field was vastly less stacked, so the only recent evidence are all his losses in Code S/A, but HuK has some recent history where he performed pretty well so it is hard to bundle him in the same basket. Last night, they were both not massively outplayed either, IdrA (as much as it pains me to say, as not his biggest fan), was on a razor edge in both of his games, where he was allined with extremely strong allins twice and barely failed to hold them. HuK similarly didn't really make many mistakes but was punished for not getting lucky and scouting the allin in game 3, and for what I feel is a map imbalance in game 2 (although his build put him behind).
If you looked at my other post, I referenced that HuK was the only foreigner who actually deserved to stay in Code S 
Plenty of other great players have dropped out of Code S only to get back in. MVP, MC all dropped into Code A/UpDowns, and they recovered and went back on top. The foreigners should all do the same. If they deserve to stay in Code S or whatever, they need to prove it, regardless if they get all-ined or lose close games.
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On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote:
Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
There's something you seem to miss when you make the comparison between Koreans at MLG and foreigners in GSL. The Koreans who came to MLG proved undeniably by their performance that they did in fact belong in pool play. The foreigners in the GSL however, have shown by their performance, that they simply don't belong in Code S and serve only as easy wins for the Koreans lucky enough to play them instead of a real opponent, and make a mockery of the tournament. Code A seeds is one thing, but they certainly shouldn't be getting seeded into Code S.
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On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote:
Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Exactly this, every foreign tournament consistently give spots to koreans, why shouldnt a korean tournament give spots to foreigners?
No one is going to pay 1k + hotel trip just to play in a qualifier for a tournament where the prize is less than your plane ticket.
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On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote:
Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Lol yea right. GSL has by far the best players in the world, as shown by the fact that every time your 'top foreigners' compete they get completely wrecked by mid-tier GSL players. And you ignore the fact that mid-tier (sometimes top-tier) Koreans go to foreign tournaments and dominate them as well.
Please. I guess you are the audience that Gom caters to with these (undeserving) free seeds. Nationality above skill.
Why are you even talking about MLG-GSL? Foreigners get seeded into GSL = get smashed. Koreans go through POOL PLAY in MLG and win. -_-
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I vote for stop seeding. IdrA used to be Code S material, so I understand that he got seeded before any other player -- but he didn't earn it nor did he play on par (just like most foreigners wouldn't).
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If you are going to Seed "foreigners" put them in the Code A Ro48 where they bypass the Code B qualifiers but then at least have to beat those that managed to qualify. Have them prove themselves immediately against those that struggled to finally qualify for Code A. NOBODY is godly enough to bypass all of Code A competition and go straight into Code S. Code S should be something that everybody must earn by going through Code A OR being a prize for a tournament that everyone knows going into it that a Code S seed is on the line.
Just gifting Code S seeds based on who you think might do well or who "deserves" it is always a recipe for disaster and just makes it a joke. Keep Code S as pure as possible and let Code A be the proving ground for invited foreigners.
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On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote:
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Oh yeah bring it up again. We didn't have enough discussions about the "naniwa incedent". Good job!
Oh and why is it wrong that some people like to see a best of the best tournament? Honestly you can't deny that at the very moment there is no foreigner, who would have serious chances of making it code S Ro8, while there are at least around 15 or 16 koreans are there at the very top of the skill order, duking it out. I must admit i was shocked by Idra's and Sen's poor code S performance. And I don't mean resultwise, because they both had hard groups, but playwise. That was just not the level, that we've seen in most of the matches of code S so far this season. So Sen making it to round 2 is more of a suprise than Idra and Huk going down.
And I said it in the code a thread. If you want to compete at the highest level in SC2, then you have to take on the challenge that is GSL. Of course money is a factor, but it never should be the only motivation. No player out of the GSL is truly able to count himself to the world's very best SC2 players. It's just nonsense, because GSL is the big deal in terms of skill. If you are not GSL proven, you are 2nd class at best. So this should be motivation enough (and the better practice enviroment) for the best foreigners to go to korea and compete in the GSL.
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On February 01 2012 10:20 MK4512 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote:
Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision. Exactly this, every foreign tournament consistently give spots to koreans, why shouldnt a korean tournament give spots to foreigners? No one is going to pay 1k + hotel trip just to play in a qualifier for a tournament where the prize is less than your plane ticket.
It's not a bad argument per se because none of the "best players" advocates are really explicitly saying what they want foreign tournaments to do. While I'm sympathetic to the principles upon which they stand, the practical application is messy because there are significant financial costs involved. Presumably, no tournament anywhere would be giving out seeds in a truly fair situation. Koreans (and some do) will just have to go through qualifying brackets on their own. However, from a business standpoint, it will just harm both scenes as a whole. I don't think people realize the direct consequences of "fairness".
The argument isn't "why shouldn't Koreans reciprocate?" because they do with little complaint. The argument is why are we subsidizing player exchanges at all? The answer: business.
Pros play for money first, not to be the best. Don't let them tell you otherwise. If there's no money, they'll try to be the best at something else.
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Your forgetting with MLG's system last year Pool play meant it was very easy to place top 12. Its not surprise that really really good Koreans that got such an advantage did so well. And to be fair alot of the "Top Foreigners" your bringing up weren't even doing well before going over. And there have been meany occassions when foreigners have beaten your best of the best Koreans/ Who won IPL3? and there wasn't lag cause it was Lan.
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On February 01 2012 10:30 Zyphen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 10:20 MK4512 wrote:On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote:
Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision. Exactly this, every foreign tournament consistently give spots to koreans, why shouldnt a korean tournament give spots to foreigners? No one is going to pay 1k + hotel trip just to play in a qualifier for a tournament where the prize is less than your plane ticket. Pros play for money first, not to be the best. Don't let them tell you otherwise. If there's no money, they'll try to be the best at something else.
tell that to american cs1.6 players...
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The last code S seeds didn't go to the best foreigners though, did they? The best foreigner was stripped of the seed.
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On February 01 2012 10:45 VTPerfect wrote:
Your forgetting with MLG's system last year Pool play meant it was very easy to place top 12. Its not surprise that really really good Koreans that got such an advantage did so well. And to be fair alot of the "Top Foreigners" your bringing up weren't even doing well before going over. And there have been meany occassions when foreigners have beaten your best of the best Koreans/ Who won NASL? and there wasn't lag cause it was Lan.
Puma won that, and he still can't make Code A even.
For the record, I think Code A invites are great but not so keen on Code S invites due to the previous poor performances of invitees.
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I think it's favorable for both Koreans and Foreigners.
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On February 01 2012 10:45 VTPerfect wrote:
Your forgetting with MLG's system last year Pool play meant it was very easy to place top 12. Its not surprise that really really good Koreans that got such an advantage did so well. And to be fair alot of the "Top Foreigners" your bringing up weren't even doing well before going over. And there have been meany occassions when foreigners have beaten your best of the best Koreans/ Who won NASL? and there wasn't lag cause it was Lan.
..Puma won NASL in case you didn't know...He is Korean, was on TSL first, and then switched to EG and won the second time. And he's not even Code A. Stop trolling.
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Your opinion is wrong. Having foreigners does bring in more viewers. Just check the VOD numbers.
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EPT
