I would like to know what the community thinks about GomTV giving some foreigners direct seeds into Code S (or code A, or up&down). I personnally feel like it's a bad thing for the tournament, as it creates some kind of imbalance between those who fought hard to deserve their spot, and those who just had the chance not to be koreans. Furthermore, the consequence is that the foreigners just get raped pretty much every time, and the fact that they got auto seeding probably doesn't help their confidence going into a match against a qualified player.
On the other hand, I think Gom assumes that seeding foreigners will bring more foreign viewers. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't change anything, I just want to see the best players, regardless to their nationality.
So here's a poll. What do you think ?
Poll: What should GOM do about the foreigner seeds?
Give Code A seeds only (636)
50%
Stop seeding foreigners anyhow (366)
29%
Keep the Code S seeds (178)
14%
Give seeds into up&down (95)
7%
1275 total votes
Your vote: What should GOM do about the foreigner seeds?
(Vote): Keep the Code S seeds (Vote): Give Code A seeds only (Vote): Give seeds into up&down (Vote): Stop seeding foreigners anyhow
On February 01 2012 00:39 ShakkaFL wrote: well... its good for koreans, its almost a walkover for a lucky korean :p
He, kind of true, but there is also one unlucky korean (or foreigner, we have the right to dream) who could have qualified but doesn't because one more foreigner seed equals one less qualification spot
To my knowledge, not a single notable Korean progamer has complained about foreigners getting seeded into code A/S. In fact when asked about it most of them welcome international participation in the GSL. 2 spots out of 32 isn't that big a deal. The new GSL format means if a player doesn't deserve to be in code whatever he'll drop out quickly anyways.
At any rate Mr. Chae has already addressed this. GOM is running a business and foreign players bring in more views than the 31st and 32nd best Korean would. Just think of it as a small sacrifice for the greater good.
Many of the invited foreign players show poor games and are knocked out quickly. Taking this into consideration, aren't some of the Korean players or teams unhappy with the increased foreign seeds?
The teams and players have no qualms. If you think about it the other way, Korean players already receive a higher number of seeds, and better placed seeds as well in foreign tournaments. It's the same principle as how foreign players don't have any complaints about that (although, I guess there may be some discontent?).
If I can use the World Cup as an example, it might be easier to explain. If the World Cup went purely by FIFA rankings, Korea would never be able to play, and it would have become a tournament that only South America and Europe enjoyed.
We don't want GSL to only establish itself as a Korean national league. We want to offer an incentive for foreign players to come to Korea, if they should ever have the opportunity. I think if they use the opportunity to come here and take in Korean pro-gaming culture, then they can become stronger than they are now.
GSL wants to provide those kind of opportunities. Also, I think that we were relatively successful at that last year. Two years ago, could you have imagined so many foreign players working with Korean teams and coming to Korea?
The point of the seeds are to make GSL stand for what it does. It's global, not just for the koreans. GOM is giving seeds to let foreigners have a chance to play in the GSL, and if they're good enough, they will eventually stay and compete. Although I don't like the idea of Code S seeds, I feel they should be driven straight into the Up & Down as a sort of 'placement' match.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
Having non-GSL tournaments that non-koreans can win in order to get GSL seeds is fine. However, the random seeding is not, nor is what they did with MLG, which is offering a seed, then changing the rules and withdrawing it.
The seeds themselves are the only way gom can make this truly global, it's already hard enough to have a foreigner stay in korea just for one league, giving him a seed makes it a lot easier... But I do agree that they shouldn't give out code s seeds, up/downs and code a seeds are fine.
Everyone should have a fair shot at getting into the GSL. I don't care if you're Korean or not, I just wan't to see the best and hence I'm against seeds.
On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote: stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. + Show Spoiler +
Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
Hey dipshit, you might want to spoiler that so my day was the only one you've ruined so far..... (Edit: Spoilered my qoute, in case he changes it - so u cant read it in the quote. Edit2: PMed him too)
Anyway i dont feel it is right to give away free entry to "the most competitive tournament in the world". I understand it for GOM and i LOVE seeing foreigners compete. But it breaks the principle of competition, so in the end im against it.
if you people really think that there wasnt more people today watching GSL, you are just dumb, just look at all the threads and the activity on the forums today
I just think it's wrong that the koreans who just barely didn't make it doesn't get a spot when some gets it for free. Imagine being a runner-up in the Code A qualifier / Just barely lost a Up-and-Down match. It's just plain unfair that they give out seeds like that :/
On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote: stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. + Show Spoiler +
Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
Hey dipshit, you might want to spoiler that so my day was the only one you've ruined so far..... (Spoilered my qoute, in case he changes it - so u cant read it in the quote)
Anyway i dont feel it is right to give away free entry to "the most competitive tournament in the world". I understand it for GOM and i LOVE seeing foreigners compete. But it breaks the principle of competition, so in the end im against it.
if you want to be spoiled dont go to a news site
ontopic: I think the code S seeds are fine as it is, as it attract also the foreign scene a lot more!
On February 01 2012 00:42 red4ce wrote: To my knowledge, not a single notable Korean progamer has complained about foreigners getting seeded into code A/S. In fact when asked about it most of them welcome international participation in the GSL. 2 spots out of 32 isn't that big a deal. The new GSL format means if a player doesn't deserve to be in code whatever he'll drop out quickly anyways.
At any rate Mr. Chae has already addressed this. GOM is running a business and foreign players bring in more views than the 31st and 32nd best Korean would. Just think of it as a small sacrifice for the greater good.
Many of the invited foreign players show poor games and are knocked out quickly. Taking this into consideration, aren't some of the Korean players or teams unhappy with the increased foreign seeds?
The teams and players have no qualms. If you think about it the other way, Korean players already receive a higher number of seeds, and better placed seeds as well in foreign tournaments. It's the same principle as how foreign players don't have any complaints about that (although, I guess there may be some discontent?).
If I can use the World Cup as an example, it might be easier to explain. If the World Cup went purely by FIFA rankings, Korea would never be able to play, and it would have become a tournament that only South America and Europe enjoyed.
We don't want GSL to only establish itself as a Korean national league. We want to offer an incentive for foreign players to come to Korea, if they should ever have the opportunity. I think if they use the opportunity to come here and take in Korean pro-gaming culture, then they can become stronger than they are now.
GSL wants to provide those kind of opportunities. Also, I think that we were relatively successful at that last year. Two years ago, could you have imagined so many foreign players working with Korean teams and coming to Korea?
The topic should end right here.
Foreigners in GSL increases viewership. It's good for e-sports.
Code S seeds is too much, maybe Code A seeds will do. Would be curious to find out the percentage of people that has passed from their invite, because IdrA, HuK and Sen they were all given Code S but they dropped down to Code A? Right?
I honestly seeding/inviting takes away from tournament experience,not only on GSL but on other tournaments aswell,something I love the GSL for is it long standing with several qualifier stages,the foreigner seeding only serves the purpose to show that foreigners suck
Without GSL seedes the gap between foreigners and Koreans is going to get bigger and bigger IMO. If Koreans dominate SC2 im sure this game is gonna die in foreign countries i think.
On February 01 2012 00:42 red4ce wrote: To my knowledge, not a single notable Korean progamer has complained about foreigners getting seeded into code A/S. In fact when asked about it most of them welcome international participation in the GSL. 2 spots out of 32 isn't that big a deal. The new GSL format means if a player doesn't deserve to be in code whatever he'll drop out quickly anyways.
At any rate Mr. Chae has already addressed this. GOM is running a business and foreign players bring in more views than the 31st and 32nd best Korean would. Just think of it as a small sacrifice for the greater good.
Many of the invited foreign players show poor games and are knocked out quickly. Taking this into consideration, aren't some of the Korean players or teams unhappy with the increased foreign seeds?
The teams and players have no qualms. If you think about it the other way, Korean players already receive a higher number of seeds, and better placed seeds as well in foreign tournaments. It's the same principle as how foreign players don't have any complaints about that (although, I guess there may be some discontent?).
If I can use the World Cup as an example, it might be easier to explain. If the World Cup went purely by FIFA rankings, Korea would never be able to play, and it would have become a tournament that only South America and Europe enjoyed.
We don't want GSL to only establish itself as a Korean national league. We want to offer an incentive for foreign players to come to Korea, if they should ever have the opportunity. I think if they use the opportunity to come here and take in Korean pro-gaming culture, then they can become stronger than they are now.
GSL wants to provide those kind of opportunities. Also, I think that we were relatively successful at that last year. Two years ago, could you have imagined so many foreign players working with Korean teams and coming to Korea?
Hmm... He does have a point. It justifies Code A seeds fairly well, but I still think straight code S seed is too much
brings in audience, even if the korean lovers aren't affected one bit. (they still watch, but foreigner lovers watch as well). Also i think its good for foreigners to see how koreans train. So just a win win situation for everyone, unless you want gls every 3 month. Not that gom hands them out like candy. But some seeds are to get viewers. So imo everyone against this has just their own benefit in mind.
Some foreigners are great and deserve code A title. Idra, Naniwa, HuK, all beated quite a large amount of koreans, code S koreans at that...
But, even if they are good enough to participate in the coda A qualification and maybe win, do you really think that they would risk everything and they would go to Korea to MAYBE get a code A spot, IF they are lucky. (It's not all about skills, there is a fair bit of luck in the Code A qualifier.) No. They would stay here, in NA/EU. The scene is bigger anyway and they can actually win more money.
No seeds pretty much means no foreigners in Code A/S, EVER. Not because foreigners are not good enough, but because foreigners can't invest that much money into going to korea for just a chance to get into code A if they are not there for another reason.
And it's a fact that no IdrA/HuK/etc in GSL mean less views.
It's not BW, the NA/EU scene is quite big. If GSL want to be at least a little on par with it, they need to offer seeds, or else, every players, even korans, will start to go more and more to NA/EU events and the korean scene will take a big hit. The Korean scene probably needs foreigners players/viewers to survive.
Seed to Code A is reasonable. Seed to Code S bypasses too much competition.
Also, watching a foreigner get seeded to Code S and then bomb right out, and then get destroyed in Code A is depressing. At least if they lose straight up in Code A, then it's not as embarrassing.
Seriously, people can vote whatever they want in this poll... At the end of the day, Gom is a business and they know the viewership numbers. I wonder what the viewership for Ro32 will be for Terious/Avenge compare with Huk/Avenge, Idra/Terious, or Idra/Huk.
I don't think people who were thinking on subscribing will say "hell no, not subscribing since instead of the best 32 in the world, we only get to see the best 30 so I am not subscribing.". Remember that addition income for GOM probably mean more tournaments like AoL and more funding for GSTL, Code A as well so it helps all the korean players as well.
However, I think that maybe they can add a mini-invitational for foreigner players who are willing to stay in Korean if they get a spot so we don't have to argue why so and so got Code S and the other didn't.
I think the way gom handeled it prior to MLG Providence was fine. Some Code A seeds to attract foreign viewers and a Code S seed for very good performance at a high profile tournament.
The way it's atm is embarassing to say at least. Most foreigners don't have the level of play to compete in Code A but some get up/down or code s seeds based on arbitrary descisions. If foreign players are good enough to compete in Code S they can win their 3 Code A sets -_-
GSL = Global Starcraft League. Foreigners may have not shown that impressive performance, but it doesen't mean that somewhere in future there couldn't be a top tier foreigner that puts up a good show. I'm gonna say that it would be fair to "only" give Code A seeds, because the players really need to prove themselves. It's going to happen by fighting your way from bottom to top and being better than the else.
Giving Code S spots, even when the player has won some major tournament clearly isn't a high enough remark to play against the best in Korea.
ive always rooted against whoever's gotten a free seed for literally no reason regardless of what team the player was on id rather watch people that actually earned it and deserve it
Seriously people, until the Koreans start to complain could we save this drama?
Huk got seeded way back in may and definitly "proved" that he deserved the spot. He lost today in a nailbiting series, which to me shows how hard the competition can be.
Idra got seeded and showed that he currently isn't at the level required. Tough luck for him, but were the games worth watching? I believe so.
No one complains when Koreans get seeded into international tournaments, so why must we have this discussion every 2 weeks? Sooner or later the "international" players will adjust to the level they need to be to play in the GSL, or they will stop flying over there to try (at which point we will start to backslide to BW style esports).
I would prefer to keep them, I find that the matches with foreigners in the early rounds add a lot of excitement to what can be somewhat dull matches and add an incentive to have foreigners reside in Korea. For the foreigner community, I think the seeds are helpful.
GSL is also a business... Foreigner fans somehow still hope everytime a foreigner enter the booth, more hype is better for the tournament imo I do think 2 code S seeds is a bit excessive though
On February 01 2012 00:57 Xalorian wrote: Some foreigners are great and deserve code A title. Idra, Naniwa, HuK, all beated quite a large amount of koreans, code S koreans at that...
But, even if they are good enough to participate in the coda A qualification and maybe win, do you really think that they would risk everything and they would go to Korea to MAYBE get a code A spot, IF they are lucky. (It's not all about skills, there is a fair bit of luck in the Code A qualifier.) No. They would stay here, in NA/EU. The scene is bigger anyway and they can actually win more money.
No seeds pretty much means no foreigners in Code A/S, EVER. Not because foreigners are not good enough, but because foreigners can't invest that much money into going to korea for just a chance to get into code A if they are not there for another reason.
And it's a fact that no IdrA/HuK/etc in GSL mean less views.
It's not BW, the NA/EU scene is quite big. If GSL want to be at least a little on par with it, they need to offer seeds, or else, every players, even korans, will start to go more and more to NA/EU events and the korean scene will take a big hit. The Korean scene probably needs foreigners players/viewers to survive.
But yeah, I guess Code A seeds are enough.
Uh no.
If you have the skills, you'll make it to code A. no excuses.
I think Code A seeds are a good idea, sorta like NFL games in Europe. It brings in viewers that your normally wouldn't have. For instance I'm much more likely to watch GSL live if there is a foreigner, but if not I usually just catch the vods. I am a huge fan of the scene so I imagine people that aren't as in to it, they would have even more drive to see someone outside of Korea compete with the Koreans.
Plus I would guess Code A gets less viewers anyway and upping the views for those games/players is only a good thing.
I like the unity between GSL and Other Tournament X (e.g. MLG) where seeds are being provided (I feel that it's helping to grow the community), but I also feel that it's unfair to the Koreans who are working hard in Code "B" and Code A and can't afford to fly out to compete in (and win) those other tournaments.
Don't give them seeds, it's pretty clear that they don't cope well with it. The reason for this is that the way the seeding works is that players who are 'stars' have a serious chance of winning a series of foreign tournaments and then get a code A/S spot, the problem is that those players -with the exception of maybe Naniwa- don't have the dedication to train exclusively for 1 match like Koreans can. As a consequence they start to slack and fail miserably leading to an outcome that is dissapointing for the fans, themselves and is moreover simply unfair for the 31/32 Korean player who is willing to put alot of time an effort into it and can't sit back on somewhat of a stable salary.
I like that Mr. Chae clarified in his TL interview that the seeds were for performance in foreign tournaments, and Koreans could get them. That makes it more fair. But he also said they were picked to put in players that sponsors wanted there, which I think undermines the integrity as a sport. I want seeds from foreign tournaments, but I want them objective and announced ahead of time. "Whoever wins Dreamhack gets a spot in up-and-downs" would be great. But I really wish they would stop just randomly inviting whoever they felt like after the fact.
On February 01 2012 00:56 DaNom wrote: Without GSL seedes the gap between foreigners and Koreans is going to get bigger and bigger IMO. If Koreans dominate SC2 im sure this game is gonna die in foreign countries i think.
i disagree, i watch starcraft 2 to see the best players regardless of where they are from, if no foreigner can step up to the plate to compete with the best, then so be it. I want to watch the best starcraft possible .
I can kinda compare this to soccer, in my country we are terrible at soccer on the international stage, We cant even beat no-name teams, But you know what? everybody tunes into the UEFA champions league to watch the best compete against the best. Is football dead in my country because we cant compete? hellll noo.. Its the most popular sport here regardless.
Starcraft is the same, we all wanna see the best even if it means non of our guys can compete.
Seeding for Code A would be fine, Code S is too much, unless the player has proven otherwise they've earned it. (MLG wins, previous GSL success, other premier tournament results, etc...)
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
I'm ok with bashing Idra every time. But Huk took 1 game and Sen took his series. Those 2 did quite well i'd say.
On February 01 2012 01:23 Usagi wrote: Oh yeah, stop giving seeds to non koreans. Also, stop seeding and giving flights to koreans. And then give everything to Kespa.
your post is retarded.
but I'll play along, the Koreans are able to compete anywhere, while free welfare seeds to Code S as you can see doesn't pan out at all
MLG gives out seeds to Korean players. GSL should do the same, as they have been. It's a difficult process to quailfy otherwise. Yes, even for Koreans to MLG, where GSL players like alive, Polt, MKP, Keen, Ganzi, violet, losira, and sc all lost in the open bracket. For the GSL, foreigners literally have to move to Korea for months.
I know there are people who do not care if a foreigner is in the GSL or not but I am sure that there are a lot more who tune in specifically to watch them.
They really aren't taking any spots from Koreans because the format of the tournament is 30 or so Koreans and a few Foreigners in code S. If you are Korean, you have to accept that you need to be in that top 30. I think there was an analogy made about this comparing it the the World Cup. The United States basically gets in every time because they are in a relatively weak region and they might not be as good as may teams that were booted out in the qualifiers of other regions.
I remember they said that the code S seeds isn't just for foreigners. It's for anyone who has had good results in other tournaments, even if this person is a Korean. Basically, it's just a way for them to invite any 2 people of their choice.
On February 01 2012 01:27 Morale wrote: Stop giving foreigners seeds, i rather see the best players play in the GSL. If they're deserving they'll go through the qualifiers.
Not true. I don't agree with Code S seeds but I do for A.
It is not financially viable for players to uproot and move to Korea and miss out on all the opportunities the west has to offer in favour of trying to qualify for the GSL. While quite a few pro's will be able to make it, they would miss out on so much trying to do this, therefore it's likely that we'd see a huge Korea/Foreigner divide again which we don't want to see. The foreigners that are able to cause upsets and beat the Koreans at events are the ones with Korean training, so take that away and it'd be 100% Korean domination all the time.
As I said I agree with Code A, but not Code S. It really devalues the worth of Code S to see it given away
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
I'm ok with bashing Idra every time. But Huk took 1 game and Sen took his series. Those 2 did quite well i'd say.
I agree on the sen part, but Huk proved throughout last year that he can hang with koreans and if he actually gets to practice for once I'm sure he is atleast low code s material. Idra on the otherhand just showed how bad his zvp really is.
SC2 as an esport is still in need of help, and attracting big names is a great way to bring in more viewers. GSL is a business as much as it is a competition. Also, not every deserving player gets entered into every tournament. GSL is pretty much like the LAST tournament to do things based off invites, and even then it's only a few players. Poll should mean nothing to GSL since people won't stop watching even if "undeserving" players get invited while people will watch solely based on this.
Also, since GSL qualifiers are LAN, it's only natural that foreigners should be able to qualify through other means. Picking up your stuff and moving to korea to put all your hopes on one tournament is not exactly cost effective.
I understand that having some foreigners in the GSL helps the viewership which is something important. But almost every time the foreigners lose early and "disappoint" (HuK a few seasons ago was the exception) I feel like seeding foreigners directly into code A/S is unfair to many code B koreans who practice even harder but can't manage to qualify for code A because the qualifiers are really hard
Would be surprised if GOM stopped giving the seeds. The foreign fans who say they don't like the seeds will continue to watch even if the seeds are still handed out. The seeds drawn far more attention to the games..
code s seeds are stupid and make foreigners that just came to korea look back since they have no way of getting used to the korean playstyle and studying of the opponent so quickly
Stop giving them free tickets. They need to train and qualify like everyone else in the qualifiers. It is so embarassing to see them getting introduced as best foreigners just to get owned. It gives foreigners a bad reputation.
I think code S seeds could be handed out still, but the requirements should be higher. As some people have said, if you win/come second at a major tournament like MLG, DH, IPL, NASL, you should be qualified to Code S. Why? Because in all those tournaments I've mentioned a lot of Koreans participate as well, and the top two players really need to be the cream of the crop to go that deep into those tournaments.
Though, by those standards I guess Puma and HerO might have been more deserving of the last Code S seeds, but they aren't exactly foreigners.
Also, I think the reason foreigners do badly in the GSL, weather its Code A or Code S, is because they seem to not research/scout their opponents, where as the Koreans do that and they can figure out the styles of players and exploit them. That+ the intense practice regime.
Code A seeds are fine, and even the foreigner community seems to think that giving a Code S spot is too much. Code S should be earned, period. Code A can be given to increase viewership, train foreigner, create some events/drame :p
Does not really matter for non-koreans. Some will go to Korea, some won't. I don't think they ever made a big difference, the foreigners who were worth their shit (and wanted to go to Korea) got far enough without favouritism.
If GOM sees large increases in number of people watching when foreigners play, they will keep dropping seeds and doing exchange programs. If not, then I should expect the seeding system to slowly vanish.
Actually, since IEM and ASUS RoG keep becoming bigger and bigger, attracting lots of good Koreans, I think it might be fair to include them in the list of tournaments that award Code S seeds. Though, at the time IdrA won IEM, the Code S seeds where already given out. GSL Jan, should have given seeds to the players who won/came runners up in the most recent tournaments.
I think the Code S seeds are fine. I mean, You can fall right out into Code B if you don't belong, but I think the ability to award code S seeds or even Up+Down seeds to distinguished foreigners is EXTREMELY important. You can't send koreans all over the world to destroy foreign tournaments, and then not recognize the few strong foreigners who are able to beat them. Code A Seeds are fine but I think it makes perfect sense for the champion of an MLG season or year to get a better entry point than that.
Forcing foreigners to go through code B virtually guarantees no foreigners in the GSL, which is not what they want and it's not what we want. It takes a lot of time and therefore money also to go up from Code B if you aren't already living in Korea. We don't want to perpetuate the "KOREANS ARE ALWAYS BETTER LOZLZZZZLZLZ" stereotype because it's obviously untrue and also spoils any opportunity for actual intelligent discourse about Foreigners vs Koreans in any other tournament. It's about practice hours logged, not race or location.
That said I'm disappointed in our foreigners this time around obviously. EG took a fucking dive this season. I'm hopeful for Sen but not that hopeful. I think this year we will see some old faces and new faces rise up to show they are the dominant western players, but so far it looks like we can expect last year's favourites to give underwhelming performances, and of course, those players should not receive advanced seeding.
I do enjoy seeing foreigners compete in the highest level tournaments, and am more likely to watch when a foreigner in playing... But I too agree that the Code S spot seems to be a bit much. I would be okay with a seed into the up/down or into Code A so that the foreigner is given a chance to fight to be called S-Class. It would also make a great storyline to have a foreigner fight their way into Code-S.
From a business side - it definitely helps GOM to have them seeded into Code-S, but it may give a nice boost to Code-A ratings.
Seeding=Good all around Foreigners=not yet ready for Code-S it seems
On February 01 2012 01:23 Usagi wrote: Oh yeah, stop giving seeds to non koreans. Also, stop seeding and giving flights to koreans. And then give everything to Kespa.
your post is retarded.
but I'll play along, the Koreans are able to compete anywhere, while free welfare seeds to Code S as you can see doesn't pan out at all
I am just tired of elitists. Thats the point of my "retarded" post.
Code A seeds for sure, but not too many either, maybe 3-4 at most, 1 for every continent at least not counting Korea of course. Dont give Code S seeds away, that's something that should be earned the normal/hard way.
Unfortunately foreign players can't always participate in the qualifiers. I would give Code A seeds so they have a chance to prove themselves and take part in GSL but nothing more.
On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote: stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. + Show Spoiler +
Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
Hey dipshit, you might want to spoiler that so my day was the only one you've ruined so far..... (Edit: Spoilered my qoute, in case he changes it - so u cant read it in the quote. Edit2: PMed him too)
Anyway i dont feel it is right to give away free entry to "the most competitive tournament in the world". I understand it for GOM and i LOVE seeing foreigners compete. But it breaks the principle of competition, so in the end im against it.
Why would you even go into a thread about foreigner GSL seeds the day 3 foreigners played Code A if you don't want the results spoiled ;p.
@ OP I think a seed to the up and down matches would be the most fair, but as it stands gom's seeding has attraced several foreign players to try in the GSL and that's only a good thing.
Foreigners in GSL increase interest of both Korean and international audience. However, as a lot of people posted before me, Code A seeds should be fair enough.
Stop seeding. Jinro is the only one that's rejected a seed into code A because he wanted to qualify straight up right? More people should think like that.
On February 01 2012 01:23 Usagi wrote: Oh yeah, stop giving seeds to non koreans. Also, stop seeding and giving flights to koreans. And then give everything to Kespa.
your post is retarded.
but I'll play along, the Koreans are able to compete anywhere, while free welfare seeds to Code S as you can see doesn't pan out at all
I am just tired of elitists. Thats the point of my "retarded" post.
I don't see how you're justifying idiocy. You didn't prove any point, you just said a bunch of stupid things and then called it a shot at elitists.
Giving seeds to non-Koreans isn't like flying over Koreans, individual seeding into invitational tournaments is completely different, those invites go to non-Koreans as well. The GSL is a qualification based tournament, Code S in particular is supposed to be the highest tier of competition, notoriously hard to get into and harder to maintain. Giving away seeds for free diminishes the value of, "Code S player".
Seeding directly into Code A seems fair, even direct seeds into the Up/Down matches would be acceptable if it was at the end of a foreign qualifier. When foreigners fail to perform so spectacularly after being given an invitation to bypass a majority of the competition, it just looks like shit.
As others have said, nothing wrong with Code A seeds so that you don't have foreigners having to spend thousands to attempt to qualify for Ro48 Code A - that's a genuine disadvantage that has nothing to do with skill. However, once you've got that hurdle out of the way, I don't see why anyone should get a Code S seed just for being a foreigner - earn it like anyone else. If you're good enough then you'll get Code S, if you're not then I don't want you in the premier SCII league.
The number of Foreigners that are even low-mid Code A level is in the single digits. Any foreigner in Code S will be the worst player there by a mile. I say you make them go through the qualifiers just like everyone else, otherwise you'll get some pretty shitty games from people that didn't belong there in the first place.
On February 01 2012 00:53 eYeball wrote: Code S seeds is too much, maybe Code A seeds will do. Would be curious to find out the percentage of people that has passed from their invite, because IdrA, HuK and Sen they were all given Code S but they dropped down to Code A? Right?
On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote: stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. + Show Spoiler +
Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
Hey dipshit, you might want to spoiler that so my day was the only one you've ruined so far..... (Edit: Spoilered my qoute, in case he changes it - so u cant read it in the quote. Edit2: PMed him too)
Anyway i dont feel it is right to give away free entry to "the most competitive tournament in the world". I understand it for GOM and i LOVE seeing foreigners compete. But it breaks the principle of competition, so in the end im against it.
Why would you even go into a thread about foreigner GSL seeds the day 3 foreigners played Code A if you don't want the results spoiled ;p.
There is an absolutely insane obsession about spoilers in the starcraft comunity. If you don't wanna know who won the superbowl don't load up espn.com. If you don't wanna know who won a SC tournament, then don't log onto TL.net!
Stop complaining about people talking about starcraft on a website design to let people talk about starcraft...
I'm fine with there being seeds and I agree with Mr. Chae's explanation about trying to keep the "G" in GSL. My only gripe is that who gets the seed seems too arbitrary right now. I'd prefer if there were some online qualifier that players outside Korea could participate in and compete for those spots.
Personally I think it would be best if there was a foreigner online tournament which would offer for the top 2 or so a spot in the up and downs (witch travel compensation). The Code A qualifiers are simply no motivation for foreigeners to go to Korea and it would ensure that there are only top foreigners with enough dedication (not saying that the currenct representatives lack dedication). For me that would be perfect because that would also perhabs encourage less popular but very good players to go to Korea.
On February 01 2012 02:20 Xxio wrote: Courage for SC2, imo.
Code A qualifiers.
Courage was a cutthroat tornament to decide whether a player even had what it took to be a progamer, if a player won courage they would most likely be picked up by a progaming team (since they get a progamer license which doesn't exist in sc2 yet), while all the other kids would keep practicing online.
I'd say code A qualifiers are more similar to MST qualifiers.
I don't see why foreigners need seeds. Personally, I like it because I always watch the games with foreigners in it. But in terms of what is right for the sake of competition, there shouldn't be seeds.
On February 01 2012 00:57 Xalorian wrote: Some foreigners are great and deserve code A title. Idra, Naniwa, HuK, all beated quite a large amount of koreans, code S koreans at that...
But, even if they are good enough to participate in the coda A qualification and maybe win, do you really think that they would risk everything and they would go to Korea to MAYBE get a code A spot, IF they are lucky. (It's not all about skills, there is a fair bit of luck in the Code A qualifier.) No. They would stay here, in NA/EU. The scene is bigger anyway and they can actually win more money.
No seeds pretty much means no foreigners in Code A/S, EVER. Not because foreigners are not good enough, but because foreigners can't invest that much money into going to korea for just a chance to get into code A if they are not there for another reason.
And it's a fact that no IdrA/HuK/etc in GSL mean less views.
It's not BW, the NA/EU scene is quite big. If GSL want to be at least a little on par with it, they need to offer seeds, or else, every players, even korans, will start to go more and more to NA/EU events and the korean scene will take a big hit. The Korean scene probably needs foreigners players/viewers to survive.
But yeah, I guess Code A seeds are enough.
Uh no.
If you have the skills, you'll make it to code A. no excuses.
Uh, no.
If you are a foreigner, at the moment, there is not even an incentive to go in Korea, except wanting to improve. Money wise, it's better here. It's true that foreigners are doing poor this season, so what? HuK and Jinro both had a great run in CODE S before. And IdrA beat top Koreans all the time.
More and more players are leaving korean teams to get into an international one. Actually, if nothing is changing (it could all change with Kespa and ESL switching to SC2) the korean scene will fade out or stagne and the NA/EU will take the lead. MLG and IPL are becoming bigger and bigger quickly and GSL is surely not. Actually, they even cuted the price pool since there is now 6 tournaments a year instead of 12, so if we are looking at price pool it's actually shrinking. Viewerwise I can't tell... but I would guess that MLG probably have more viewers than the GSL... and people in korea can just easily watch it for free if i'm not mistaken, since they are on the same time line, little need for vods.
Having the skills to be in Code A don't mean that you really have a reason to. Why would you stay in Korea, pay for a flight, pay for hotel/accomodations to maybe get a code A spots (Maybe is the key word) when you can have a way more profitable run in NA/EU, staying at home and getting invited to all sort of event around the world.
So, is the GSL and Korea the best place to improve with the biggest tournament? Yes. But if they want to keep this title, they need foreigners in their events.
Is it unfair for the 2 cobe B koreans that are not in because of it? Maybe. Is it better to trade the two worst koreans that would be in code A for 2 foreigners, money/viewer/scene wise? I'm pretty sure that it is.
And it have a bigger impact that people thinks. I watch GSL, foreigners or not. But on the seven friends of mine that are following the scene, five of them only buy tickets when there is a foreigner to follow. I'm pretty sure that it's the case for A LOT of viewers, consciusly or not, they are way more interested when they can follow a foreigner.
On February 01 2012 00:57 Xalorian wrote: Some foreigners are great and deserve code A title. Idra, Naniwa, HuK, all beated quite a large amount of koreans, code S koreans at that...
But, even if they are good enough to participate in the coda A qualification and maybe win, do you really think that they would risk everything and they would go to Korea to MAYBE get a code A spot, IF they are lucky. (It's not all about skills, there is a fair bit of luck in the Code A qualifier.) No. They would stay here, in NA/EU. The scene is bigger anyway and they can actually win more money.
No seeds pretty much means no foreigners in Code A/S, EVER. Not because foreigners are not good enough, but because foreigners can't invest that much money into going to korea for just a chance to get into code A if they are not there for another reason.
And it's a fact that no IdrA/HuK/etc in GSL mean less views.
It's not BW, the NA/EU scene is quite big. If GSL want to be at least a little on par with it, they need to offer seeds, or else, every players, even korans, will start to go more and more to NA/EU events and the korean scene will take a big hit. The Korean scene probably needs foreigners players/viewers to survive.
But yeah, I guess Code A seeds are enough.
They would risk it even without the Code A spot because you actually can't win anything major without going to Korea (Stephano being the lone exception in over a year of Starcraft). So any players who were interested in becoming the best would still need to go to and live in Korea.
this is just like government subsidies. it is unfair and it doesn't work. foreigners should be motivated to get their code A/S because of what it would mean for their self improvement. also, the GSL will attract more global viewers if the foreigners in A/S actually earned their spots by qualifying, and thus being more capable of actually doing well.
I think up/down and code S seeds should be kept, it's much more interesting to see the good foreigners compete in GSL than just the Koreans. Koreans have gotten a lot of seeds and invites for foreign tournaments, so I don't see a problem. It's not all about skill, non-Koreans brings in more viewers and attention Only good for spreading the SC2 love! If we get separated scenes the foreign scene will start to lag behind even more and eventually die out - that would suck for everyone but the extreme hardcore fans.
Edit: As an added argument, there is much less incentive for non-Koreans otherwiseto go to Korea - less money and a foreign culture/language barriers etc.
They should give out seeds, first of all because many fans want to see foreigners play, me included. Second of all, to have people from outside of korea go there for a chance to partake in a tournament with almost no monetary gain, playing through the roughest field of players is not gonna be common. If anything i think it's great to promote a world SC2 community, so it feels less like korea vs the world, like we had in bw.
On February 01 2012 02:41 Stiluz wrote: I think up/down and code S seeds should be kept, it's much more interesting to see the good foreigners compete in GSL than just the Koreans. Koreans have gotten a lot of seeds and invites for foreign tournaments, so I don't see a problem. It's not all about skill, non-Koreans brings in more viewers and attention Only good for spreading the SC2 love! If we get separated scenes the foreign scene will start to lag behind even more and eventually die out - that would suck for everyone but the extreme hardcore fans.
Is it interesting when they go 1-4 or 0-4 in their Code S group and lose in Code A round 1 and end up straight into Code B?
On February 01 2012 02:43 Mellon wrote: They should give out seeds, first of all because many fans want to see foreigners play, me included. Second of all, to have people from outside of korea go there for a chance to partake in a tournament with almost no monetary gain, playing through the roughest field of players is not gonna be common. If anything i think it's great to promote a world SC2 community, so it feels less like korea vs the world, like we had in bw.
On February 01 2012 01:23 Usagi wrote: Oh yeah, stop giving seeds to non koreans. Also, stop seeding and giving flights to koreans. And then give everything to Kespa.
your post is retarded.
but I'll play along, the Koreans are able to compete anywhere, while free welfare seeds to Code S as you can see doesn't pan out at all
I am just tired of elitists. Thats the point of my "retarded" post.
I don't see how you're justifying idiocy. You didn't prove any point, you just said a bunch of stupid things and then called it a shot at elitists.
Giving seeds to non-Koreans isn't like flying over Koreans, individual seeding into invitational tournaments is completely different, those invites go to non-Koreans as well. The GSL is a qualification based tournament, Code S in particular is supposed to be the highest tier of competition, notoriously hard to get into and harder to maintain. Giving away seeds for free diminishes the value of, "Code S player".
Seeding directly into Code A seems fair, even direct seeds into the Up/Down matches would be acceptable if it was at the end of a foreign qualifier. When foreigners fail to perform so spectacularly after being given an invitation to bypass a majority of the competition, it just looks like shit.
2 answers and 2 insults given, oh how I love this community at times.
I am trying to put a bit of irony in many people brains that are elitists about seeds and in most cases about foreigners vs Korea. Some people want to see Koreans only? Great, the scene they might love now will become the same as it happened with BW. Foreign players might lose, but they need to play there to get better right? What better way to bond comminities, and atract interest than seeding international players even if they lose? Those crappy players that lose at the first given chance bring in attention, people watching, and sponsor money, for the koreans, those who need it badly. And I wouldnt like a korean only GSL.
It benefits everyone (except for the 2-3 people whose places are being taken) for foreigners to be seeded in GSL. Seeding people in Code S, the most skilled group of players in the world, is kind of silly. But Ro48 Code A is perfect.
just becauise he lost a bo3 shouldn't create such a hateful outcry. he honestly didn't play badly in the games, either./ it's sc2. fucking volatile as hell
On February 01 2012 00:57 Xalorian wrote: Some foreigners are great and deserve code A title. Idra, Naniwa, HuK, all beated quite a large amount of koreans, code S koreans at that...
But, even if they are good enough to participate in the coda A qualification and maybe win, do you really think that they would risk everything and they would go to Korea to MAYBE get a code A spot, IF they are lucky. (It's not all about skills, there is a fair bit of luck in the Code A qualifier.) No. They would stay here, in NA/EU. The scene is bigger anyway and they can actually win more money.
No seeds pretty much means no foreigners in Code A/S, EVER. Not because foreigners are not good enough, but because foreigners can't invest that much money into going to korea for just a chance to get into code A if they are not there for another reason.
And it's a fact that no IdrA/HuK/etc in GSL mean less views.
It's not BW, the NA/EU scene is quite big. If GSL want to be at least a little on par with it, they need to offer seeds, or else, every players, even korans, will start to go more and more to NA/EU events and the korean scene will take a big hit. The Korean scene probably needs foreigners players/viewers to survive.
But yeah, I guess Code A seeds are enough.
They would risk it even without the Code A spot because you actually can't win anything major without going to Korea (Stephano being the lone exception in over a year of Starcraft). So any players who were interested in becoming the best would still need to go to and live in Korea.
Do you really think that Korea will stay the "place where you need to go to become good", if tournamenet in NA/EU become all way bigger than the GSL?
Soon enough, if MLG/IPL/Dreamhack keep growing as fast as they are now, the NA/EU scene will be WAY bigger than the korean one. When the foreign scene will be way more bigger than the korean scene, do you think that korean pro-player will stay there and will only participate in GSL for the "best player in the world" title?
No, obviously. They will go to MLG/IPL/Dreamhack more and more, foreigners team will hire more and more koreans and there will be no need to go to korea to improve : there will be teamhouse here and all the best koreans will be here half of the time.
On February 01 2012 02:43 Mellon wrote: They should give out seeds, first of all because many fans want to see foreigners play, me included. Second of all, to have people from outside of korea go there for a chance to partake in a tournament with almost no monetary gain, playing through the roughest field of players is not gonna be common. If anything i think it's great to promote a world SC2 community, so it feels less like korea vs the world, like we had in bw.
They're almost all Korean and most of that money is from GSL. If you're actually good and deserving of your Code S seed you make good money in Korea.
You do realize that the only koreans who really make money of of the gsl are the ones who win/get 2nd place right? The most a korean who didn't win a gsl and only competes in the gsl made is Nada with $29825k. A lot of foreigners who never went to korea made more, and nada had a lot of ro8s etc. and stayed in code s forever. Another good example is Clide, one of the most consistent code s players last year, he only made 15k he certainly deserved his code s status but compared to what a player of his caliber would have made by competing in all the western tournaments it's pretty much a joke.
Also whenever bw is dead in korea you won't see that many koreans fly out to other tournaments/join foreign teams as they'll actually get a salary from their team etc.
Yes, keep the Code S seeds. The Korean reaction seems positive, and the foreign participation increases the GSL's viewership. Those seeds are not necessarily just for foreigners, they are for players who perform well in foreign tournaments, so Koreans can also technically win them, if I recall correctly. If you win MLG Winter Arena or IPL, it's not unreasonable to think that you should have a chance to compete with the world's best.
On February 01 2012 00:57 Xalorian wrote: Some foreigners are great and deserve code A title. Idra, Naniwa, HuK, all beated quite a large amount of koreans, code S koreans at that...
But, even if they are good enough to participate in the coda A qualification and maybe win, do you really think that they would risk everything and they would go to Korea to MAYBE get a code A spot, IF they are lucky. (It's not all about skills, there is a fair bit of luck in the Code A qualifier.) No. They would stay here, in NA/EU. The scene is bigger anyway and they can actually win more money.
No seeds pretty much means no foreigners in Code A/S, EVER. Not because foreigners are not good enough, but because foreigners can't invest that much money into going to korea for just a chance to get into code A if they are not there for another reason.
And it's a fact that no IdrA/HuK/etc in GSL mean less views.
It's not BW, the NA/EU scene is quite big. If GSL want to be at least a little on par with it, they need to offer seeds, or else, every players, even korans, will start to go more and more to NA/EU events and the korean scene will take a big hit. The Korean scene probably needs foreigners players/viewers to survive.
But yeah, I guess Code A seeds are enough.
They would risk it even without the Code A spot because you actually can't win anything major without going to Korea (Stephano being the lone exception in over a year of Starcraft). So any players who were interested in becoming the best would still need to go to and live in Korea.
Do you really think that Korea will stay the "place where you need to go to become good", if tournamenet in NA/EU become all way bigger than the GSL?
Soon enough, if MLG/IPL/Dreamhack keep growing as fast as they are now, the NA/EU scene will be WAY bigger than the korean one. When the foreign scene will be way more bigger than the korean scene, do you think that korean pro-player will stay there and will only participate in GSL for the "best player in the world" title?
No, obviously. They will go to MLG/IPL/Dreamhack more and more, foreigners team will hire more and more koreans and there will be no need to go to korea to improve : there will be teamhouse here and all the best koreans will be here half of the time.
The Koreans will do exactly what they do now. They will live in Korean Pro houses train together, play GSL and then once a month go to a foreign tournament and win all the money.
Plus KESPA is coming so Korea is about to become both more lucrative than the west and have way better players.
On February 01 2012 02:43 Mellon wrote: They should give out seeds, first of all because many fans want to see foreigners play, me included. Second of all, to have people from outside of korea go there for a chance to partake in a tournament with almost no monetary gain, playing through the roughest field of players is not gonna be common. If anything i think it's great to promote a world SC2 community, so it feels less like korea vs the world, like we had in bw.
They're almost all Korean and most of that money is from GSL. If you're actually good and deserving of your Code S seed you make good money in Korea.
You do realize that the only koreans who really make money of of the gsl are the ones who win/get 2nd place right? The most a korean who didn't win a gsl and only competes in the gsl made is Nada with $29825k. A lot of foreigners who never went to korea made more, and nada had a lot of ro8s etc. and stayed in code s forever. Another good example is Clide, one of the most consistent code s players last year, he only made 15k he certainly deserved his code s status but compared to what a player of his caliber would have made by competing in all the western tournaments it's pretty much a joke.
Also whenever bw is dead in korea you won't see that many koreans fly out to other tournaments/join foreign teams as they'll actually get a salary from their team etc.
Everything could change when BW scene switch to SC2 IF it ever happens. But, that does not mean that Korea will be the focus of that. Seeing how the western scene is growing like hell, Kespa could focus on it... or on the chinese one... giving even more seeds to foreigners that GSL are. There is no way to know.
And, add salary from foreigners teams (SC2 earnings don't take into account salary) whick most koreans don't even have, i'm pretty much sure than, yes, top 1-3 will probably stay the same, but a lot of the other koreans will not even be in the top 25 any more.
On February 01 2012 01:23 Usagi wrote: Oh yeah, stop giving seeds to non koreans. Also, stop seeding and giving flights to koreans. And then give everything to Kespa.
your post is retarded.
but I'll play along, the Koreans are able to compete anywhere, while free welfare seeds to Code S as you can see doesn't pan out at all
I am just tired of elitists. Thats the point of my "retarded" post.
I don't see how you're justifying idiocy. You didn't prove any point, you just said a bunch of stupid things and then called it a shot at elitists.
Giving seeds to non-Koreans isn't like flying over Koreans, individual seeding into invitational tournaments is completely different, those invites go to non-Koreans as well. The GSL is a qualification based tournament, Code S in particular is supposed to be the highest tier of competition, notoriously hard to get into and harder to maintain. Giving away seeds for free diminishes the value of, "Code S player".
Seeding directly into Code A seems fair, even direct seeds into the Up/Down matches would be acceptable if it was at the end of a foreign qualifier. When foreigners fail to perform so spectacularly after being given an invitation to bypass a majority of the competition, it just looks like shit.
2 answers and 2 insults given, oh how I love this community at times.
I am trying to put a bit of irony in many people brains that are elitists about seeds and in most cases about foreigners vs Korea. Some people want to see Koreans only? Great, the scene they might love now will become the same as it happened with BW. Foreign players might lose, but they need to play there to get better right? What better way to bond comminities, and atract interest than seeding international players even if they lose? Those crappy players that lose at the first given chance bring in attention, people watching, and sponsor money, for the koreans, those who need it badly. And I wouldnt like a korean only GSL.
It's not about wanting to see Koreans only, it's about wanting a tournament that's representative of the best players to be limited to the best players. There's no reason for the seed to be a Code S seed, you could bond the communities with Code A invites just as well. They don't have to be in Code S to get better at the game either, they can be in Code A and practice in the Korean environment, it's not like that one extra Bo3 or Bo1 group stage against Code S players is bumping their skill level up substantially, particularly if they get rolled.
Also, it's not like beating foreigners is going to bring this Koreans some great fame and success. Everyone knows that the Koreans are better at the game, that's not the question for sponsorship. There are a fair few Koreans who are better than their foreign counterparts but earn substantially less, beating IdrA won't change that.
Once again, Code S isn't the only tournament in the GSL, but it should be reserved for the players who earn their way in through the merit of their own play within the GSL or through specified tournaments outside. Code A invites are a perfectly fine bypass of a setup that is inconvenient to foreigners, direct Code S seeding is a massive handout.
Code A seeds are good but honestly the only foreigners worth any salt that actually live in Korea full time are Huk and Jinro. Foreigners have proven time and again that they can compete but the GSL is the GSL. MLG is a marathon while GSL is a preplanned short term assault. Foreigners take it very lightly and don't actually study their specific opponent. They focus on the general match up but not what tricks that person will pull. That is what the Koreans do. They most likely studied Idra and Huk's games over and over again as can be seen in their reactions. They were scared shitless and happy as hell when it worked. Man the guy who beat Idra acted like he just won the GSL.
When foreigners play, it gives extra incentive to watch at god-awful hours. Sometimes I'm tempted to go to bed before a broadcast starts, or can't quite make it through all the matches. It's a good business decision, regardless of other factors.
On February 01 2012 03:13 acrimoneyius wrote: When foreigners play, it gives extra incentive to watch at god-awful hours. Sometimes I'm tempted to go to bed before a broadcast starts, or can't quite make it through all the matches. It's a good business decision, regardless of other factors.
Before tonights matches I actually paid for GSL light. Thank god Sen made it. I was happy for him but I'm also an EG fan so...
On February 01 2012 00:44 pStar wrote: stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. + Show Spoiler +
Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
Hey dipshit, you might want to spoiler that so my day was the only one you've ruined so far..... (Edit: Spoilered my qoute, in case he changes it - so u cant read it in the quote. Edit2: PMed him too)
Anyway i dont feel it is right to give away free entry to "the most competitive tournament in the world". I understand it for GOM and i LOVE seeing foreigners compete. But it breaks the principle of competition, so in the end im against it.
Come on, you hadn't watched the matches and you clicked on a thread about whether foreigners should be given free seeds into GSL? That's your own fault.
Anyway, I'm for the foreign seeds, but probably only for Code A ro48. Aside from Huk, who has lived and practiced in Korea for over a year, no foreigner has shown any ability to compete in Code S. Beat Code S players on occasion? Sure. But not beat them in Code S, or even Code A, for that matter.
Seeding into Code A gives foreigners an opportunity to compete in GSL while they're in Korea and a chance to prove they can stand toe to toe with GSL players on a consistent basis. If they can't, they wash out. It's not really unfair to the Koreans, either, since there's 48 Code A spots now.
People will still buy tickets whether their favorite foreigner is in Code S or A, but you won't polute the most prestigious league (code S) with worthless invites
On February 01 2012 03:12 robih wrote: koreans get seeds into IEM groups and MLG poolplay without doing anything for it aswell
i dont see how this is unfair
MLG Pool seeds were part of a partnership between MLG and the GSL. The seeds given out since are not a part of that. Also, at MLG you had to make top 3 and be the highest non-Code S participant to be able to earn a Code S seed, a specific predetermined requirement.
As for IEM, on multiple occasions the Korean invites aren't all Koreans by nationality, they've invited Huk through the 4 Korean invites, as well as Jinro. In addition, they have qualifiers for all other regions and just choose to use invites for the Korean players. It's not like this is a hand-out, you'd get Koreans anyway, they just choose to invite as opposed to open qualifiers. Also, IEM is a traveling tournament with a decent emphasis on region, choosing to have region locks for their tournaments.
If the GSL wants to have online qualifiers for Code A so foreigners can compete, they can do that as well, but I don't think they're particularly interested in that option. Free Code A spots are fine to bypass the issue of drawn out qualification. Free Up/Down spots could be fine too.
On February 01 2012 02:55 Bagration wrote: Yes, keep the Code S seeds. The Korean reaction seems positive, and the foreign participation increases the GSL's viewership. Those seeds are not necessarily just for foreigners, they are for players who perform well in foreign tournaments, so Koreans can also technically win them, if I recall correctly. If you win MLG Winter Arena or IPL, it's not unreasonable to think that you should have a chance to compete with the world's best.
The problem with this is that the foreign tournaments are won by Koreans with already code S/A status, the final is K vs K, etc. So the codes S/A "prize" goes to the whatever position the first foreigner is at. That's not really earning it, is it?
I say seeds for code A are ok if they are earned from wining other tournaments. If the tournament winner already has code A/S status, then so be it.
On February 01 2012 02:39 iky43210 wrote: Huk and idra are not the only foreigner in gsl... there are still hopes.
Sen, morrow, xigua, macseed, and hero are still in it! they can still make it to code S
When people say "foreigners", they really mean "white dudes". Of those, only morrow qualifies as such. You can go through dozens of posts without Sen and foreigner being mentioned in the same sentence, if at all. "White dudes" do not see Sen as their representative. It's just the truth.
That being said; good job Sen! I'm rooting for you.
On February 01 2012 03:17 windsupernova wrote: Am I the only one who finds it funny that foreign fans are the ones complaining about the seeds?
I haven't seen a peep from Korean pros or fans.
Tbh I favour the up and down seeds. Enough to make it worth for the foreigners, and they have to earn their spot in the main tournament
That's because they know it's good for the business. Borderline Korean qualifiers aren't going to earn any prize money anyway. Foreign viewers pump the tournament purse. This is a false controversy. Foreign fans just can't stand the constant embarrassment and this is the expression of that sentiment. But hey, sometimes you need to get embarrassed in order to get better.
On February 01 2012 02:55 Bagration wrote: Yes, keep the Code S seeds. The Korean reaction seems positive, and the foreign participation increases the GSL's viewership. Those seeds are not necessarily just for foreigners, they are for players who perform well in foreign tournaments, so Koreans can also technically win them, if I recall correctly. If you win MLG Winter Arena or IPL, it's not unreasonable to think that you should have a chance to compete with the world's best.
The problem with this is that the foreign tournaments are won by Koreans with already code S/A status, the final is K vs K, etc. So the codes S/A "prize" goes to the whatever position the first foreigner is at. That's not really earning it, is it?
I say seeds for code A are ok if they are earned from wining other tournaments. If the tournament winner already has code A/S status, then so be it.
Hard to argue whether someone earned an s spot or not, as it is subjective. Still I feel that this debate is a bit unnecessary. GSL loses viewers without foreigners, and thus revenue. Based off of that alone, I think that GSL will not change their system
I think it's quite a joke to invite foreigners while many much stronger players are struggling in the unforgiving qualifiers. They'll probably keep doing it though, cos it generates more foreigner views, unfortunately. It's also really unfair to foreigners living in korea and trying to qualify in respected way.
No seed/invitation bullshit is the best choice for the viewers but right now I think that with GOM's (normal) attachement to its sponsors, code A seed are the best. Foreigners have a chance (c'mon Morrow!) and some of them will make it contrary to code S ...
I would prefer a 3 strikes you're out policy. A foreigner is given 3 opportunities to stay in GSL, after that they must qualify through Code B only. I am just tired of seeing sub-par play from the same people (huk, naniwa, idra) over and over again. I am convinced that none of these mentioned could qualify through Code B.
At least this way, you would get some different people. Whether they would be lambs to the slaughter remains to be seen.
The performance of foreigners in GSL is embarrassing. Don't give seeds away, because I want high quality games and not noobs fooling around in leagues they don't belong to.
Remove seeds. if they want to play in the best tournament with the best players, they should qualify like everyone else.. just ends up being horrible games compared to what u couldv watched.
On February 01 2012 06:41 KimJongIlJr wrote: I would prefer a 3 strikes you're out policy. A foreigner is given 3 opportunities to stay in GSL, after that they must qualify through Code B only. I am just tired of seeing sub-par play from the same people (huk, naniwa, idra) over and over again. I am convinced that none of these mentioned could qualify through Code B.
At least this way, you would get some different people. Whether they would be lambs to the slaughter remains to be seen.
On February 01 2012 06:41 KimJongIlJr wrote: I would prefer a 3 strikes you're out policy. A foreigner is given 3 opportunities to stay in GSL, after that they must qualify through Code B only. I am just tired of seeing sub-par play from the same people (huk, naniwa, idra) over and over again. I am convinced that none of these mentioned could qualify through Code B.
At least this way, you would get some different people. Whether they would be lambs to the slaughter remains to be seen.
I can sort of see where you're coming from, but you're using the wrong examples.
Idra stayed in Code S on his own until he decided to leave to come back to the states. It was easier to remain in Code S then, but he did it based on his own merits, not because of GOM being nice to him.
Huk dropped down to Code A, then fought his way back into Code S. That's pretty legit. He also stayed in Code S for multiple seasons and even made it to the Ro8 at one point.
So, the reason you're seeing those two over and over is due to the fact that they deserved to be there, not because GOM was repeatedly inviting them.
I feel that its really unfair to the people working their way all the way from code B to code S. I feel like its degrading to the name of code S by getting a seed straight to it. Its like they missed all the work to get it. Yes, you could say that winning MLG is prestigious, but winning code B and then going to up and down matches then getting to the next up and down match sounds significantly harder.
One way to give Seeds, which seems fair to me, would be for GOM to approve a few official, offline tournaments. Any win in a series against a Code A/S player, at one of the approved offline tournaments, would give that foreigner a +1 or a +2 depending on whether the KR was Code S or A. Every X months, they take the top X foreign players, and draft them into Code A, S, or Up and Down.
Obviously this method would require a lot more fine tuning from people more knowledgeable than myself. But I think it would be the best way to get foreigners into GSL without questions of if they really deserved it more than others.
So basically, you have to choose. Do you want the best players or a global tournament? Do you want the UEFA Champions League or the FIFA World Cup?
It's up to GOM, and not us, how they want to style their tournament. If they think it's good business to include foreigners, I'm okay with that.
Personally I would rather see them seeded into the Up and Downs, because (in the case of Code A seeds) I think flying off to Korea to play possibly (likely?) only a single best of 3 for three months is a bit much to ask. In the Up and Downs you get group play, and if you fail, there's Code A next season waiting for you, giving you a bit of continuity that is really nice if you want to try to make it in a foreign country (team support or no).
I would also like to make the point that I don't think it's been conclusively proven yet that foreigners can't compete in Code S. Not many moons ago, Huk was doing just fine. Actually, he was in the Ro16 last season. How quickly we forget.
Do foreigners really care THAT much about nationality more than level of play? Even if you want to see a foreigner succeed, what's the point of giving them the Code S seed if they are just going to get massacred? I don't see how that is fun to watch.
The Code S seeds really need to be cut. It might be true though that players like Idra and Naniwa bring in more viewers but I would still prefer if there was no free Code S passes for anyone. However I don't mind foreigners getting Code S seeds by winning foreign tournaments that have Code S level Koreans participating.
I don't personally mind about foreigners getting Code A seeds since top foreigners seem to be close to bottom of Code A level so it's less silly and brings more viewers for Code A, just keep them out of Code S unless if they work their way up.
Code S is too much. It's supposed to be the toughest most prestigious tournament in Sc2 giving away direct seeds to it is just flawed, especially when 99% of the players seeded drop out of code S the first season and most then even drop right out GSL right after. I like that they want to give foreigners a chance, but give then a seed to Code A and let them prove their worth by fighting into Code S like everyone else.
I mean its kinda hard to say "foreigners suck" when huk hasn't been practicing for like 6 weeks and idra played his worst matchup. Sen played really well and we still have 2 chinese players and morrow to go. There are alot of foreigners who could do well in gsl, including idra and huk, but it will take more time for them to get to a level where they can compete in korea.
the reason theres code s seeding in the first place is that most foreigner doesnt give shit about code a seed i remember guys from SoTG saying that they will accept code s and go to korea, but not code a code s seed attract foreigners but code a doesnt
Personally id like to see every spot earned through the code B qualification as I dont obsess over seeing a foreigner just because he is a foreigner. If there was no invites it would make the tournament feel more special to me.
On February 01 2012 02:39 iky43210 wrote: Huk and idra are not the only foreigner in gsl... there are still hopes.
Sen, morrow, xigua, macseed, and hero are still in it! they can still make it to code S
When people say "foreigners", they really mean "white dudes". Of those, only morrow qualifies as such. You can go through dozens of posts without Sen and foreigner being mentioned in the same sentence, if at all. "White dudes" do not see Sen as their representative. It's just the truth.
That being said; good job Sen! I'm rooting for you.
Sen's been a part of our foreign scene and has been participating in out events for roughly 10 years. You may not remember that tho.He is a foreigner by all means and he represents me. Agree on the chinese part tho, their scene always been separated from foreign one but I'm still interested how would chinese players do against koreans.
Gives each player 2 shots at minimum to prove themselves.
And frankly, I still feel foreigners are perfectly capable of proving themselves. One reason is that most players we send over play before they get a chance to settle with the drastic culture/practise/life changes that happen when you move to Korea.
The other reason is that except for the top 8 or so Code S players, the GSL and Code B are actually really tight in terms of competiton. I worry that a lot of people see their favourites lose to players whose names they don't see often or even recognise at all, and assume that the Korean is mediocre.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Sen is amazing and awesome and adorable. I've only been watching him since TSL3, but that guy has some serious style, and was a huge part of the foreign scene till he joined Gama Bears.
On February 01 2012 07:39 TicketoHELL wrote: the reason theres code s seeding in the first place is that most foreigner doesnt give shit about code a seed i remember guys from SoTG saying that they will accept code s and go to korea, but not code a code s seed attract foreigners but code a doesnt
Then IMO get rid of seeds all together. Make the players actually earn their spot. I never got the whole obsession about foreigners, personally I just want to see the best of the best going head to head.
If they keep the Code S seeds, they should at least invite "worthy" Koreans, too, don't let it turn into foreigners only (I assume that's how it's supposed to be at the moment already, but there hasn't been a Korean invite yet)! Eventually they'll run out of foreigners anyway if they don't recycle (god, I hope they don't).
"Give Code S seed to tournament winner/runner-up" (like MLG, IPL, Dreamhack)
if it is a foreigner (like Naniwa in Providence), then he earned it
For the Code A seeds, the foreigners just had a lot of bad luck in the last events. Sjow and Select made it past one round and there were not among the best foreigners. Huk/Jinro showed foreigners can even compete in Code S. Other top foreigners have beaten Code S players in other tourneys.
We have to give the Code A seeds, because the qualifiers are offline, and there would be less incentive to go to Korea just for qualifiers.
I don't have a problem with giving away Code A seeds, Code S seeds, on the other hand, shouldn't be handed out. By "giving away" these Code A spots GomTv is bringing in more viewers and many of us get to see some of our favorite non-Koreans play up against the best.
Code S seeds should never have even been considered.
Code A seeds should only be given to other tournament winners, not the "highest ranked guy that accepts the invite" or "pretty well known foreigner that just happens to be around in Korea".
I think there should be Code S seeds from tournaments still. To give incentive for top foreign players to come over, they won't for a Code A seed. But not just for random foreigners.
The general reaction of the Koreans seems to be positive. Furthermore, many have expressed in the thread that they enjoy watching matches with foreigners, and GSL knows this. Foreigners in Code S is more viewers and thus more revenue for Gom.
Furthermore, it incentivizes foreigners to go to Korea for the long term. Let's say that you are a player of Kas' or Thorzain's caliber, strong enough to take down Koreans but living in Europe. The prize pool for "winning" Code A, that is winning all 3 of your matches, is less than $1000 USD. Considering that this is roughly a 2 month long tournament, that's not that much incentive for players to accept these seeds, especially when there are so many other tournaments in Europe.
By giving the foreigners the "carrot", that is, a Code S seed, it gives them a huge reason to go to Korea. By going to Korea, they end up staying at least a few weeks (in which they pull an "Idra" and lose 3 consecutive matches), or they finish out the season and stay for the whole 2 month duration, training in Korea the whole time.
The best way to stop foreigners from getting continually wrecked by Koreans is to produce better foreign pro gamers, and we need to give the foreign scene's top talents the best conditions through better incentives so that they can compete with Korea's finest.
The seeding system was always stupid for me. Not because foreigners couldn't compete, because some of them honestly can.
It's that the system basically says "You can play in the GSL. Now, uproot yourself, move to Korea, and we'll have you play your first match before you've even settled down".
Given actual time to practice and adjust themselves, a good number of foreigners have managed to settle themselves into the GSL tournaments fairly well (meaning not losing to every Korean they play against).
Stop giving seeds, I want too see some more over the shoulder shakey cam video diaries from Artosis following a plucky foreigner attempt to qualify for Code A.
I think they seed foreigners for business reasons. More people will buy season tickets if a foreigner plays. This, however, is detrimental to the quality of the tournament.
The reason why no one complains in Korea, is because it's good for Esports overall to add foreign support. Not like it matters to the Koreans anyways, they don't feel threatened by foreigner play right now anyways. So if it's going to increase funding, support, awarness, etc for SC2 in Korea, why not let a few foreigners in? I know I would fully support it being a Korean Pro gamer. Lets also not forget that allowing foreigner play in Korea has also transitioned to allowing average Korean players to come back to the States (etc), to become 'well known' players, when they never could do it in Korea. I think it works both ways and is great for Esports all together.
I like the idea behind the seeds but make it a qualifier of some sort perhaps the best non GSL player that make it through a MLG season can earn a spot? LOL + Show Spoiler +
Up&Downs feels about right, otherwise they'd play only 2 games at Code A and then leave already. It's not easy to live at another country, so it would turn into a 1 month chance I think. I am not sure how it works.
Code S is another world for now, way out of reach of foreigners. If they get seeded into Code S, they're just going to be embarassed. Code A seeds however are acceptable.
On February 01 2012 02:39 iky43210 wrote: Huk and idra are not the only foreigner in gsl... there are still hopes.
Sen, morrow, xigua, macseed, and hero are still in it! they can still make it to code S
When people say "foreigners", they really mean "white dudes". Of those, only morrow qualifies as such. You can go through dozens of posts without Sen and foreigner being mentioned in the same sentence, if at all. "White dudes" do not see Sen as their representative. It's just the truth.
That being said; good job Sen! I'm rooting for you.
Sen's been a part of our foreign scene and has been participating in out events for roughly 10 years. You may not remember that tho.He is a foreigner by all means and he represents me. Agree on the chinese part tho, their scene always been separated from foreign one but I'm still interested how would chinese players do against koreans.
Huh? You realize Sen is chinese right? And chinese aren't "foreigners"? I know what you're trying to say but cognitive dissonance permeates throughout the board on this subject.
Sen is more acceptable to most people because he speaks English and participates in more western events (especially in recent years) than other pros from China/Taiwan. Someone like Select is accepted similarly along those lines. Though, if you read enough posts, you'll realize there's a fine distinction made by most people, which sometimes get spelled out by the more honest (Select is ethnically Korean). If you truly believe Sen represents "foreigners", you're in the minority along with me. Congratulations for having, in my opinion, a more enlightened view.
Take the reaction to today's results for example. The vast majority of comments both here and in the GSL thread are about how Huk and Idra lost, not how Sen won. I guarantee you that people would be much less gloomy if say Sen and Huk lost and Idra won. Don't be naive. Take a look at who make up the fan bases, how big their fanclubs are, and how many people even choose to acknowledge Sen's accomplishments for the foreign scene vs an Idra or Huk or Jinro or Naniwa, etc... I posed a question about people's responses to Loner (chinese player) back in GSL's infancy and I got some very honest responses (which I appreciate). If you care to read them, they're probably still attached to my post history. People identify by race/ethnicity, culture, and language, in that order.
Code A seeds is the best option IMO, it'll allow foreigners a chance to compete in the GSL without seeming overly undeserving.
Nothing against Idra or Sen, but they (Idra especially) haven't been showing the greatest play as of late and if anything their poor performance in code S (and A for Idra) is proof of that.
In my opinion, not too many foreigners are at the same level as Koreans. Look at todays Code A results... I think It's a marketing stategy more then anything.. More foreigners in GSL more interest among the fans.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
I don't think it's fair to say that IdrA's play was not even close to Avenge's. Avenge all-in'd him twice. We didn't get to see the results of the lategame training that IdrA has been doing, and to be fair, IdrA's strength is in long games, not defending crazy warp prism all ins.
On February 01 2012 07:48 Fus wrote: Stop seeding foreigners, it's racism
I find it funny. I'm against affirmative action in principle but this whole thing just amuses me to no end. Who says white dudes get the short end of the stick? Take a look at Berkeley right after they dropped racial quotas. It just exploded with Asians. My Indian friend is pissed he got wait-listed by Harvard because they still incorporate that archaic practice.
So are Huk and Idra leaving Korea or are they going to try to Jinro it back to GSL? I think the problem with the whole foreigner thing -- as someone else pointed out in this thread -- is that foreigners lack the infrastructure to just go and sit around on the Korean ladder for 6 months before actually playing a televised game. And if that is the reality then why not go back to NA where the pickings are easy and they can finish top 10 at an MLG, especially if the best Koreans dont come out because of GSL commitments, and collect a steady paycheck and a successful stream revenue? As semi-pro streamers like Destiny show its possible to make a pretty solid revenue stream without ever actually being a consistently good player.
On February 01 2012 02:39 iky43210 wrote: Huk and idra are not the only foreigner in gsl... there are still hopes.
Sen, morrow, xigua, macseed, and hero are still in it! they can still make it to code S
When people say "foreigners", they really mean "white dudes". Of those, only morrow qualifies as such. You can go through dozens of posts without Sen and foreigner being mentioned in the same sentence, if at all. "White dudes" do not see Sen as their representative. It's just the truth.
That being said; good job Sen! I'm rooting for you.
Sen's been a part of our foreign scene and has been participating in out events for roughly 10 years. You may not remember that tho.He is a foreigner by all means and he represents me. Agree on the chinese part tho, their scene always been separated from foreign one but I'm still interested how would chinese players do against koreans.
Huh? You realize Sen is chinese right? And chinese aren't "foreigners"? I know what you're trying to say but cognitive dissonance permeates throughout the board on this subject.
Sen is more acceptable to most people because he speaks English and participates in more western events (especially in recent years) than other pros from China/Taiwan. Someone like Select is accepted similarly along those lines. Though, if you read enough posts, you'll realize there's a fine distinction made by most people, which sometimes get spelled out by the more honest (Select is ethnically Korean). If you truly believe Sen represents "foreigners", you're in the minority along with me. Congratulations for having, in my opinion, a more enlightened view.
Take the reaction to today's results for example. The vast majority of comments both here and in the GSL thread are about how Huk and Idra lost, not how Sen won. I guarantee you that people would be much less gloomy if say Sen and Huk lost and Idra won. Don't be naive. Take a look at who make up the fan bases, how big their fanclubs are, and how many people even choose to acknowledge Sen's accomplishments for the foreign scene vs an Idra or Huk or Jinro or Naniwa, etc... I posed a question about people's responses to Loner (chinese player) back in GSL's infancy and I got some very honest responses (which I appreciate). If you care to read them, they're probably still attached to my post history. People identify by race/ethnicity, culture, and language, in that order.
On February 01 2012 09:01 Sub40APM wrote: So are Huk and Idra leaving Korea or are they going to try to Jinro it back to GSL? I think the problem with the whole foreigner thing -- as someone else pointed out in this thread -- is that foreigners lack the infrastructure to just go and sit around on the Korean ladder for 6 months before actually playing a televised game. And if that is the reality then why not go back to NA where the pickings are easy and they can finish top 10 at an MLG, especially if the best Koreans dont come out because of GSL commitments, and collect a steady paycheck and a successful stream revenue? As semi-pro streamers like Destiny show its possible to make a pretty solid revenue stream without ever actually being a consistently good player.
I'm pretty sure Idra is moving back and Huk is staying. Idra didn't want to stay in Korea long-term any ways.
On February 01 2012 02:39 iky43210 wrote: Huk and idra are not the only foreigner in gsl... there are still hopes.
Sen, morrow, xigua, macseed, and hero are still in it! they can still make it to code S
When people say "foreigners", they really mean "white dudes". Of those, only morrow qualifies as such. You can go through dozens of posts without Sen and foreigner being mentioned in the same sentence, if at all. "White dudes" do not see Sen as their representative. It's just the truth.
That being said; good job Sen! I'm rooting for you.
Sen's been a part of our foreign scene and has been participating in out events for roughly 10 years. You may not remember that tho.He is a foreigner by all means and he represents me. Agree on the chinese part tho, their scene always been separated from foreign one but I'm still interested how would chinese players do against koreans.
Huh? You realize Sen is chinese right? And chinese aren't "foreigners"? I know what you're trying to say but cognitive dissonance permeates throughout the board on this subject.
Sen is more acceptable to most people because he speaks English and participates in more western events (especially in recent years) than other pros from China/Taiwan. Someone like Select is accepted similarly along those lines. Though, if you read enough posts, you'll realize there's a fine distinction made by most people, which sometimes get spelled out by the more honest (Select is ethnically Korean). If you truly believe Sen represents "foreigners", you're in the minority along with me. Congratulations for having, in my opinion, a more enlightened view.
Take the reaction to today's results for example. The vast majority of comments both here and in the GSL thread are about how Huk and Idra lost, not how Sen won. I guarantee you that people would be much less gloomy if say Sen and Huk lost and Idra won. Don't be naive. Take a look at who make up the fan bases, how big their fanclubs are, and how many people even choose to acknowledge Sen's accomplishments for the foreign scene vs an Idra or Huk or Jinro or Naniwa, etc... I posed a question about people's responses to Loner (chinese player) back in GSL's infancy and I got some very honest responses (which I appreciate). If you care to read them, they're probably still attached to my post history. People identify by race/ethnicity, culture, and language, in that order.
Sen is Taiwanese
Right, like that makes all the difference. Thank you for missing the point completely.
And for the record, he's about as different from a "Chinese" person as a North Korean is from a South Korean. Same ethnicity, culture, and language with a different form of government. Whoop-dee-doo. There's a bigger difference between the Irish, Scots, and Welsh.
On February 01 2012 07:48 Fus wrote: Stop seeding foreigners, it's racism
I find it funny. I'm against affirmative action in principle but this whole thing just amuses me to no end. Who says white dudes get the short end of the stick? Take a look at Berkeley right after they dropped racial quotas. It just exploded with Asians. My Indian friend is pissed he got wait-listed by Harvard because they still incorporate that archaic practice.
What is the difference between your Indian friend and Asians?
On February 01 2012 02:39 iky43210 wrote: Huk and idra are not the only foreigner in gsl... there are still hopes.
Sen, morrow, xigua, macseed, and hero are still in it! they can still make it to code S
When people say "foreigners", they really mean "white dudes". Of those, only morrow qualifies as such. You can go through dozens of posts without Sen and foreigner being mentioned in the same sentence, if at all. "White dudes" do not see Sen as their representative. It's just the truth.
That being said; good job Sen! I'm rooting for you.
Sen's been a part of our foreign scene and has been participating in out events for roughly 10 years. You may not remember that tho.He is a foreigner by all means and he represents me. Agree on the chinese part tho, their scene always been separated from foreign one but I'm still interested how would chinese players do against koreans.
Huh? You realize Sen is chinese right? And chinese aren't "foreigners"? I know what you're trying to say but cognitive dissonance permeates throughout the board on this subject.
Sen is more acceptable to most people because he speaks English and participates in more western events (especially in recent years) than other pros from China/Taiwan. Someone like Select is accepted similarly along those lines. Though, if you read enough posts, you'll realize there's a fine distinction made by most people, which sometimes get spelled out by the more honest (Select is ethnically Korean). If you truly believe Sen represents "foreigners", you're in the minority along with me. Congratulations for having, in my opinion, a more enlightened view.
Take the reaction to today's results for example. The vast majority of comments both here and in the GSL thread are about how Huk and Idra lost, not how Sen won. I guarantee you that people would be much less gloomy if say Sen and Huk lost and Idra won. Don't be naive. Take a look at who make up the fan bases, how big their fanclubs are, and how many people even choose to acknowledge Sen's accomplishments for the foreign scene vs an Idra or Huk or Jinro or Naniwa, etc... I posed a question about people's responses to Loner (chinese player) back in GSL's infancy and I got some very honest responses (which I appreciate). If you care to read them, they're probably still attached to my post history. People identify by race/ethnicity, culture, and language, in that order.
Sen is Taiwanese
Right, like that makes all the difference. Thank you for missing the point completely.
And for the record, he's about as different from a "Chinese" person as a North Korean is from a South Korean. Same ethnicity, culture, and language with a different form of government. Whoop-dee-doo. There's a bigger difference between the Irish, Scots, and Welsh.
On February 01 2012 07:48 Fus wrote: Stop seeding foreigners, it's racism
I find it funny. I'm against affirmative action in principle but this whole thing just amuses me to no end. Who says white dudes get the short end of the stick? Take a look at Berkeley right after they dropped racial quotas. It just exploded with Asians. My Indian friend is pissed he got wait-listed by Harvard because they still incorporate that archaic practice.
What is the difference between your Indian friend and Asians?
Nothing, according to the U.S. education system. Though some schools are making an attempt at differentiating between East and South Asians. I don't know why they bother because I have a friend who's a professor of Financial Engineering at Columbia who says it makes no difference whatsoever to admissions (it all goes in the Asians "box"). I blame the government ultimately for the quota system.
On February 01 2012 09:01 Sub40APM wrote: So are Huk and Idra leaving Korea or are they going to try to Jinro it back to GSL? I think the problem with the whole foreigner thing -- as someone else pointed out in this thread -- is that foreigners lack the infrastructure to just go and sit around on the Korean ladder for 6 months before actually playing a televised game. And if that is the reality then why not go back to NA where the pickings are easy and they can finish top 10 at an MLG, especially if the best Koreans dont come out because of GSL commitments, and collect a steady paycheck and a successful stream revenue? As semi-pro streamers like Destiny show its possible to make a pretty solid revenue stream without ever actually being a consistently good player.
I'm pretty sure Idra is moving back and Huk is staying. Idra didn't want to stay in Korea long-term any ways.
makes sense -- easy top 5 MLG finish for him, and probably dominate some foreigner only invite tournaments.
I think giving them up and down placement automatically is what it should be. The time the players who got the automatic seeds spent in Korea I dont feel was long enough to have too much of an impact. Given more time over there though an more participation in GSL will surely help them especially IdrA who has before made it to the Ro8 in GSL(s) (Not sure if it was more then the one time). Now I know Huk has been over there awhile but has also shown that foreigners can maintain a high ranking in GSL code S having been in it multiple times though now he's knocked out it happens sometimes. All I'm trying to say is that foreigners getting automatic seeds isn't terrible but up and downs would be better. (Sorry shit grammar I know though I never claimed I was great with it lol.)
On February 01 2012 09:01 Sub40APM wrote: So are Huk and Idra leaving Korea or are they going to try to Jinro it back to GSL? I think the problem with the whole foreigner thing -- as someone else pointed out in this thread -- is that foreigners lack the infrastructure to just go and sit around on the Korean ladder for 6 months before actually playing a televised game. And if that is the reality then why not go back to NA where the pickings are easy and they can finish top 10 at an MLG, especially if the best Koreans dont come out because of GSL commitments, and collect a steady paycheck and a successful stream revenue? As semi-pro streamers like Destiny show its possible to make a pretty solid revenue stream without ever actually being a consistently good player.
I'm pretty sure Idra is moving back and Huk is staying. Idra didn't want to stay in Korea long-term any ways.
makes sense -- easy top 5 MLG finish for him, and probably dominate some foreigner only invite tournaments.
He killed it at IEM Guangzhou an that also had Koreans an Chinese invited as well.
On February 01 2012 09:01 Sub40APM wrote: So are Huk and Idra leaving Korea or are they going to try to Jinro it back to GSL? I think the problem with the whole foreigner thing -- as someone else pointed out in this thread -- is that foreigners lack the infrastructure to just go and sit around on the Korean ladder for 6 months before actually playing a televised game. And if that is the reality then why not go back to NA where the pickings are easy and they can finish top 10 at an MLG, especially if the best Koreans dont come out because of GSL commitments, and collect a steady paycheck and a successful stream revenue? As semi-pro streamers like Destiny show its possible to make a pretty solid revenue stream without ever actually being a consistently good player.
I'm pretty sure Idra is moving back and Huk is staying. Idra didn't want to stay in Korea long-term any ways.
makes sense -- easy top 5 MLG finish for him, and probably dominate some foreigner only invite tournaments.
He killed it at IEM Guangzhou an that also had Koreans an Chinese invited as well.
Oh god, these threads keep coming. People need to stop reading too much into single bo3s.
First off, to make broad assertions about foreigners in the GSL based on yesterdays games is ridiculous. Huk has spent months in Korea, and he certainly hasn't been losing all his games (he's beaten many top Koreans, and he's been beaten by many top Koreans). This time last year no one could say that IdrA wasn't one of the best players in the world, and while he's had his ups and downs since then, he's beaten many top Koreans in many tournaments since then.
The reality of it is that when you're playing at this top level anything goes. Idra and Huk didn't play their best. Sen played well and advanced. It's as simple as that.
I personally don't see the point in giving seeds to foreigners. If they really want to play in the GSL, they will just have to put in the effort and find a way to qualify by themselves. Having so many of these foreigners be given seeds, and then just having them drop out looks bad, especially when it just doesn't seem like they were very prepared. Having players like Idra making rude comments about his opponent doesn't look very good either.
There are plenty of international tournaments for foreigners, I don't see a reason for them to have to play in the GSL.
On February 01 2012 09:28 naggerNZ wrote: Oh god, these threads keep coming. People need to stop reading too much into single bo3s.
First off, to make broad assertions about foreigners in the GSL based on yesterdays games is ridiculous. Huk has spent months in Korea, and he certainly hasn't been losing all his games (he's beaten many top Koreans, and he's been beaten by many top Koreans). This time last year no one could say that IdrA wasn't one of the best players in the world, and while he's had his ups and downs since then, he's beaten many top Koreans in many tournaments since then.
The reality of it is that when you're playing at this top level anything goes. Idra and Huk didn't play their best. Sen played well and advanced. It's as simple as that.
They are hardly playing at a top level, they are basically b teamers
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
It doesn't seem harsh, it seems retarded.
HuK is in Code A because last GSL he didn't get to Code S Ro8. He beat Puzzle, Clide and Nestea, and then lost twice to Leenock, and Keen (both pretty quality players). Today he had the worst last 2 maps for PvZ and got cheesed on the last one, with a near unscoutable cheese that would beat all other Protoss if unscouted. Therefore he isn't close to the level of Bumblebee who has never made Code S before. Yeah, nah.
i say give code a seeds, it gives them a chance to prove their material for the gsl without having too much of a cost. this has nothing to do with race or anything because the gsl is based entirely on whether you win or not, ther's no subjectivity at all. If you win youll get code s.
I love watching foreigner vs korean so ofc id like to see the foreginers keep getting seeded in, makes the viewing much more pleasant. As said before, it's just 2 out of 32 players and there are a couple of koreans every season that doesnt impress more the the seeded foreigners.
Only Code A, but I'd be alright with only Up/Downs. Really, foreigners should earn their spot through the qualifiers and prove that they can hang with the best. HuK is the ony foreigner who has recently showed that he can consistently beat the Code S level players, but the rest of them have dropped like flies. Foreigner seeds into Code A or Up/Downs will help viewership anyways, no need to bring untested players to the big stage.
Code S I think is a little bit much, but think about it from GOM's perspective: putting IdrA or Huk or Naniwa or Stephano or FotM player xyz into Code S makes it that much better a deal for foreign viewers... and if they do well, people might buy tickets to watch VODs... And think of the FIFA World Cup which isn't necessarily the best countries in the world duking it out, but rather the best of each region (I mean Ghana isn't going to win, but don't you rather have a World event than just European teams?)
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
It doesn't seem harsh, it seems retarded.
HuK is in Code A because last GSL he didn't get to Code S Ro8. He beat Puzzle, Clide and Nestea, and then lost twice to Leenock, and Keen (both pretty quality players). Today he had the worst last 2 maps for PvZ and got cheesed on the last one, with a near unscoutable cheese that would beat all other Protoss if unscouted. Therefore he isn't close to the level of Bumblebee who has never made Code S before. Yeah, nah.
That's how GSL should work? You play well, you stay in. You don't play well, or don't practice, or focus on another game for a few weeks, you drop out. If HuK still has the Code S quality in him, he'll regain his Code S spot like he did before. But last night he was not on par with the Koreans.
I'm pretty sure GOM has its reasons for increasing the number of seeds to foreigners in recent GSL tournaments. (from 1 code s/4 code a to 2 code s/5 code a).
I would like to assume a major reason why this is happening is that they see a spike in the amount of viewership every time a foreigner player plays. I for one haven't watched GSL for a month before yesterday simply because there were no foreigners playing. Seems like the silent majority thing is going on here. I've never really understood the anti-foreigner sentiment in TL (maybe it's a remainder from the BW watching days), but i'm used to it. However you guys need to remember that there are many more people watching SC2 who dont actually go to TL, and does it not occur to all of you here that these people may want to see foreigners in the GSL. I know many friends who watch the GSL but hate to come to TL because of a variety of reasons, and from what i can tell, they're interest in the tournament increases ten fold whenever a foreigner is playing.
So my vote is for the system to remain how it is. In an ideal world, I would prefer the GSL to have regional online qualifiers for the US/Europe/Rest of Asia for each tournament, with about 1/3 of the places reserved for these qualifiers. The remaining places will be determined by the normal offline qualifiers in Korea. I mean, they are calling it the Global Starcraft League right? If not they'll slowly lose ground to other growing tournaments that are adopting a better approach in terms of player composition (i.e. IPL, MLG).
The main problem with the GSL is that it's a month long competition that requires months of practice in Korea to prepare. For most foreigners a code A spot will simply not entice them enough to stay 2-3 months in a new country. They'd rather compete in the IEM's/IPL's/MLG's that end in 3-4 days.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
It doesn't seem harsh, it seems retarded.
HuK is in Code A because last GSL he didn't get to Code S Ro8. He beat Puzzle, Clide and Nestea, and then lost twice to Leenock, and Keen (both pretty quality players). Today he had the worst last 2 maps for PvZ and got cheesed on the last one, with a near unscoutable cheese that would beat all other Protoss if unscouted. Therefore he isn't close to the level of Bumblebee who has never made Code S before. Yeah, nah.
That's how GSL should work? You play well, you stay in. You don't play well, or don't practice, or focus on another game for a few weeks, you drop out. If HuK still has the Code S quality in him, he'll regain his Code S spot like he did before. But last night he was not on par with the Koreans.
If you base a players quality off of one set of games, then I don't know what to say to you. Based on your logic, Leenock is clearly not a Code S level Zerg because he was knocked out of Code S in R32. I think you're much wiser taking a look at a players history in a competition in making an informed decision about it. IdrA hasn't performed in GSL since the field was vastly less stacked, so the only recent evidence are all his losses in Code S/A, but HuK has some recent history where he performed pretty well so it is hard to bundle him in the same basket.
Last night, they were both not massively outplayed either, IdrA (as much as it pains me to say, as not his biggest fan), was on a razor edge in both of his games, where he was allined with extremely strong allins twice and barely failed to hold them. HuK similarly didn't really make many mistakes but was punished for not getting lucky and scouting the allin in game 3, and for what I feel is a map imbalance in game 2 (although his build put him behind).
Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
They should stop. if I were a korean, I'd feel that usually it is a waste of a spot since many foreigners just die in their match to koreans and that someone more deserving could've had the spot.
On February 01 2012 09:28 naggerNZ wrote: Oh god, these threads keep coming. People need to stop reading too much into single bo3s.
Huk's made a few code S runs. Idra made a few good runs too but that was a long time ago. Beyond that, where's the foreigner success in code S?
Also the Chinese scene hasn't shown anything impressive. IEM China (Ghanzou sp?) was supposed to be the arena where the Chinese finally showed off their top talent and it just didn't happen.
E: I'm sure no Koreans are going to complain about being handed walkovers in Ro32. But spots in Code S really shouldn't go to people who can't compete there.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
It doesn't seem harsh, it seems retarded.
HuK is in Code A because last GSL he didn't get to Code S Ro8. He beat Puzzle, Clide and Nestea, and then lost twice to Leenock, and Keen (both pretty quality players). Today he had the worst last 2 maps for PvZ and got cheesed on the last one, with a near unscoutable cheese that would beat all other Protoss if unscouted. Therefore he isn't close to the level of Bumblebee who has never made Code S before. Yeah, nah.
That's how GSL should work? You play well, you stay in. You don't play well, or don't practice, or focus on another game for a few weeks, you drop out. If HuK still has the Code S quality in him, he'll regain his Code S spot like he did before. But last night he was not on par with the Koreans.
If you base a players quality off of one set of games, then I don't know what to say to you. Based on your logic, Leenock is clearly not a Code S level Zerg because he was knocked out of Code S in R32. I think you're much wiser taking a look at a players history in a competition in making an informed decision about it. IdrA hasn't performed in GSL since the field was vastly less stacked, so the only recent evidence are all his losses in Code S/A, but HuK has some recent history where he performed pretty well so it is hard to bundle him in the same basket.
Last night, they were both not massively outplayed either, IdrA (as much as it pains me to say, as not his biggest fan), was on a razor edge in both of his games, where he was allined with extremely strong allins twice and barely failed to hold them. HuK similarly didn't really make many mistakes but was punished for not getting lucky and scouting the allin in game 3, and for what I feel is a map imbalance in game 2 (although his build put him behind).
If you looked at my other post, I referenced that HuK was the only foreigner who actually deserved to stay in Code S Plenty of other great players have dropped out of Code S only to get back in. MVP, MC all dropped into Code A/UpDowns, and they recovered and went back on top. The foreigners should all do the same. If they deserve to stay in Code S or whatever, they need to prove it, regardless if they get all-ined or lose close games.
On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote: Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
There's something you seem to miss when you make the comparison between Koreans at MLG and foreigners in GSL. The Koreans who came to MLG proved undeniably by their performance that they did in fact belong in pool play. The foreigners in the GSL however, have shown by their performance, that they simply don't belong in Code S and serve only as easy wins for the Koreans lucky enough to play them instead of a real opponent, and make a mockery of the tournament. Code A seeds is one thing, but they certainly shouldn't be getting seeded into Code S.
On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote: Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Exactly this, every foreign tournament consistently give spots to koreans, why shouldnt a korean tournament give spots to foreigners?
No one is going to pay 1k + hotel trip just to play in a qualifier for a tournament where the prize is less than your plane ticket.
On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote: Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Lol yea right. GSL has by far the best players in the world, as shown by the fact that every time your 'top foreigners' compete they get completely wrecked by mid-tier GSL players. And you ignore the fact that mid-tier (sometimes top-tier) Koreans go to foreign tournaments and dominate them as well.
Please. I guess you are the audience that Gom caters to with these (undeserving) free seeds. Nationality above skill.
Why are you even talking about MLG-GSL? Foreigners get seeded into GSL = get smashed. Koreans go through POOL PLAY in MLG and win. -_-
I vote for stop seeding. IdrA used to be Code S material, so I understand that he got seeded before any other player -- but he didn't earn it nor did he play on par (just like most foreigners wouldn't).
If you are going to Seed "foreigners" put them in the Code A Ro48 where they bypass the Code B qualifiers but then at least have to beat those that managed to qualify. Have them prove themselves immediately against those that struggled to finally qualify for Code A. NOBODY is godly enough to bypass all of Code A competition and go straight into Code S. Code S should be something that everybody must earn by going through Code A OR being a prize for a tournament that everyone knows going into it that a Code S seed is on the line.
Just gifting Code S seeds based on who you think might do well or who "deserves" it is always a recipe for disaster and just makes it a joke. Keep Code S as pure as possible and let Code A be the proving ground for invited foreigners.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Oh yeah bring it up again. We didn't have enough discussions about the "naniwa incedent". Good job! Oh and why is it wrong that some people like to see a best of the best tournament? Honestly you can't deny that at the very moment there is no foreigner, who would have serious chances of making it code S Ro8, while there are at least around 15 or 16 koreans are there at the very top of the skill order, duking it out. I must admit i was shocked by Idra's and Sen's poor code S performance. And I don't mean resultwise, because they both had hard groups, but playwise. That was just not the level, that we've seen in most of the matches of code S so far this season. So Sen making it to round 2 is more of a suprise than Idra and Huk going down. And I said it in the code a thread. If you want to compete at the highest level in SC2, then you have to take on the challenge that is GSL. Of course money is a factor, but it never should be the only motivation. No player out of the GSL is truly able to count himself to the world's very best SC2 players. It's just nonsense, because GSL is the big deal in terms of skill. If you are not GSL proven, you are 2nd class at best. So this should be motivation enough (and the better practice enviroment) for the best foreigners to go to korea and compete in the GSL.
On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote: Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Exactly this, every foreign tournament consistently give spots to koreans, why shouldnt a korean tournament give spots to foreigners?
No one is going to pay 1k + hotel trip just to play in a qualifier for a tournament where the prize is less than your plane ticket.
It's not a bad argument per se because none of the "best players" advocates are really explicitly saying what they want foreign tournaments to do. While I'm sympathetic to the principles upon which they stand, the practical application is messy because there are significant financial costs involved. Presumably, no tournament anywhere would be giving out seeds in a truly fair situation. Koreans (and some do) will just have to go through qualifying brackets on their own. However, from a business standpoint, it will just harm both scenes as a whole. I don't think people realize the direct consequences of "fairness".
The argument isn't "why shouldn't Koreans reciprocate?" because they do with little complaint. The argument is why are we subsidizing player exchanges at all? The answer: business.
Pros play for money first, not to be the best. Don't let them tell you otherwise. If there's no money, they'll try to be the best at something else.
Your forgetting with MLG's system last year Pool play meant it was very easy to place top 12. Its not surprise that really really good Koreans that got such an advantage did so well. And to be fair alot of the "Top Foreigners" your bringing up weren't even doing well before going over. And there have been meany occassions when foreigners have beaten your best of the best Koreans/ Who won IPL3? and there wasn't lag cause it was Lan.
On February 01 2012 10:10 VTPerfect wrote: Really bad arguments. "We just want the best players", "stop giving handouts to foreigners". Firstly for most of last year MLG paid travel and hotel expenses to send Koreans straight to the gilded championship bracket. This was done because of an MLG-GSL partnership where top GSL players were selected and MLG became a purveyor of Code A and Code S slots. GSL stands for Global Starcraft League, however the qualifiers are ONLY held in Korea, that means you literally have to pick up and move to Korea to get a GSL slot. The problem is that there is alot of money to win by not going to Korea so some of the best players in the world like Stephano don't want to sacrifice Months on a gamble when they could win more money staying where they are. Hence the GSL slots given to Foreigners who earn them by winning Major Lan tournaments outside of Korea to help alleviate the gamble of paying 3k roundtrip to play the qualifier in Korea.
It's a two way street its not fair to foreigners to give Koreans instant access to an earned benefit for foreigners (similar to code S) and then say that Foreigners need to earn their GSL spots by going to Korea. Yeah there are maybe 5-6 Koreans at any given time that are technically better than any foreigner but match a real top foreigner against the rest and you have a real game.
Edit: The problem here was that GSL unilaterally decided that what was beleived to be true wasn't true when NaNiWa refused to provide entertainment value for the GSL so all of a sudden Foreigners are "Gifted" Slots instead of rightfully earned. So its not the foreigners fault that GSL made this decision.
Exactly this, every foreign tournament consistently give spots to koreans, why shouldnt a korean tournament give spots to foreigners?
No one is going to pay 1k + hotel trip just to play in a qualifier for a tournament where the prize is less than your plane ticket.
Pros play for money first, not to be the best. Don't let them tell you otherwise. If there's no money, they'll try to be the best at something else.
On February 01 2012 10:45 VTPerfect wrote: Your forgetting with MLG's system last year Pool play meant it was very easy to place top 12. Its not surprise that really really good Koreans that got such an advantage did so well. And to be fair alot of the "Top Foreigners" your bringing up weren't even doing well before going over. And there have been meany occassions when foreigners have beaten your best of the best Koreans/ Who won NASL? and there wasn't lag cause it was Lan.
Puma won that, and he still can't make Code A even.
For the record, I think Code A invites are great but not so keen on Code S invites due to the previous poor performances of invitees.
On February 01 2012 10:45 VTPerfect wrote: Your forgetting with MLG's system last year Pool play meant it was very easy to place top 12. Its not surprise that really really good Koreans that got such an advantage did so well. And to be fair alot of the "Top Foreigners" your bringing up weren't even doing well before going over. And there have been meany occassions when foreigners have beaten your best of the best Koreans/ Who won NASL? and there wasn't lag cause it was Lan.
..Puma won NASL in case you didn't know...He is Korean, was on TSL first, and then switched to EG and won the second time. And he's not even Code A. Stop trolling.
I don't mind it. It does bring more viewers in, it brings really good Code B players into the spotlight, and overall everyone is happy. I don't think anyone is sad that foreigners are given the chance, some people might be mad that foreigners lose, but it's to be expected.
On February 01 2012 10:53 helvete wrote: The last code S seeds didn't go to the best foreigners though, did they? The best foreigner was stripped of the seed.
The best foreigner with a 0-10 record in GSL?? Enough about this topic already, you fanboys really need to let it go..
I'm OK with giving foreigners code A spot not so much a code S. IDK why people are getting mad about this, don't you want to see the best of the best in code S?
For those supporting this auto-seeding, I hope you guys realize that your basically acknowledging that foreigners aren't good enough to compete with the koreans on their own. Competition is competition. This kind of "everyone deserves a fair chance" starts to make "competition" meaningless - yes 2 seeds is insignificant but the concept itself is just wrong. All the foreigners jumped out of BW into SC2 because this is where they thought they finally had a chance to level the playing field but now if people are complaining that koreans are dominating SC2 like they did with BW then theres nothing else to say except that the foreigners didn't work hard enough.
I don't think you can have it both ways (for those ardent fans of foreign pros).
Those who say that qualifying for the GSL is a huge financial/social/whatever commitment and gamble: yes, it is and that's part of it. If you are good enough the gamble will be worth it. By supporting gift seeds you are acknowledging that you need a helping hand to make it at the top level. Bringing up the opportunity cost of easy foreign tournament prize pools does nothing but highlight the skill discrepancy. With the current system, foreign pros are either about trying to be the best, or merely trying to make money.
Code A seeds based on foreign tournament placings seems fair enough. Gives the option to players to base themselves over in Korea without taking a ridiculous gamble.
Getting into the GSL is ridiculously difficult now, and without that exposure it seems the gap between the foreign and Korean scenes is widening. The carrot that is a Code A spot would at least help foreigners who want to go to Korea a first foot in the door, and from there hopefully they'd get to the levels required for Code S.
That said one of my main annoyances over the way the seedings have worked thus far is that not enough people are basing themselves in Korea and sticking it out. They'll get a Code A run, get knocked down and not come back.
On February 01 2012 10:53 helvete wrote: The last code S seeds didn't go to the best foreigners though, did they? The best foreigner was stripped of the seed.
Did GOM also kill your President? Too many Swede's act like GOM committed some heinous offense against Sweden itself. Naniwa made stupid decisions and GOM, within their right, acted on those. Time to move on
I think foreigner seeds are stupid in general but because GOM is going to continue giving them out like candy I would just like the selection process to be a little more consistent. Some invites seem to be based on results and past accomplishments in GSL (Idra) and others are based completely on gaining popularity (Macsed, Xigua).
On February 01 2012 10:53 helvete wrote: The last code S seeds didn't go to the best foreigners though, did they? The best foreigner was stripped of the seed.
Did GOM also kill your President? Too many Swede's act like GOM committed some heinous offense against Sweden itself. Naniwa made stupid decisions and GOM, within their right, acted on those. Time to move on
Slasher admitted that GOM basically lied when they said Naniwa never actually had a code S seed. If they want to take it away (which they did), sure, but they better own up to the fact. If Swedes want to be pissed at GOM, I think that's 100% fair.
I believe it useless to give foreign players seeds for the GSL. They should qualify through Code B if they really want to play in the biggest stage in this planet. Plus, by qualifying through the hell called "Code B", they would improve their gameplay A LOT. Look at Idra and Huk: they can't do anything against Koreans people haven't even heard about, at least in a while. I find it really annoying to watch such one-sided games.
GOM is a businness company, and as such it should try to attract viewers, but since the Naniwa incident, I believe they lost a lot of foreign viewers.
On February 01 2012 09:28 naggerNZ wrote: Oh god, these threads keep coming. People need to stop reading too much into single bo3s.
Huk's made a few code S runs. Idra made a few good runs too but that was a long time ago. Beyond that, where's the foreigner success in code S?
Also the Chinese scene hasn't shown anything impressive. IEM China (Ghanzou sp?) was supposed to be the arena where the Chinese finally showed off their top talent and it just didn't happen.
E: I'm sure no Koreans are going to complain about being handed walkovers in Ro32. But spots in Code S really shouldn't go to people who can't compete there.
The foreigner seeding is quite honestly, a joke. It's blatantly obvious that the skill level isn't even close. Give the spots to people who can play the game. As much as it would suck not to have any foreigners there, I'd rather seem higher quality games.
I don't get it why do Koreans dominate in SC2 too?
I mean with BW one could understand that the Koreans had more money and thus were capable of focusing on training more. But what happened with SC2?Are our players just less hardworking?
I don't really mind the seeds tbh, what pisses me off us the multitude of foreigner fans who blindly defend and try to protect their pros as if they were 10 years old. If they are underperforming we should ask more from the foreign players, it always kills me when a foreigner losses we get 10 million posts making excuses for them.
The seeds are fine though, I'd actually advocate getting rid of the Code A seed and keep the up and down and code S seeds. Its not about making it easier for the foreigners, but its about giving them incentives to come over to Korea and at least have some certainty.
And LOL @ all the people still mad about the naniwa incident
On February 01 2012 11:41 SonOfBoxer wrote: I believe it useless to give foreign players seeds for the GSL. They should qualify through Code B if they really want to play in the biggest stage in this planet. Plus, by qualifying through the hell called "Code B", they would improve their gameplay A LOT. Look at Idra and Huk: they can't do anything against Koreans people haven't even heard about, at least in a while. I find it really annoying to watch such one-sided games.
GOM is a businness company, and as such it should try to attract viewers, but since the Naniwa incident, I believe they lost a lot of foreign viewers.
Agree with that but there are so many major tournaments and money in the foreign scene that foreigners don't want to train 2 to 3 months in Korea just to qualify thou code B. That's right way is to earn a code A spot but foreigners don't want to waste their time on one major tournament that they can't win but play in 3 or 4 that they could win.
I think only Code A seeds should be given but it should be Code A round of 24 seeds so that it's 1 series that the foreigner has to win whereby it is "Code S or bye bye". Imagine the tension, excitement and stress for the foreigner and for the foreign fans. I wonder how many foreign fans will tune in for that series.
On February 01 2012 11:41 SonOfBoxer wrote: I believe it useless to give foreign players seeds for the GSL. They should qualify through Code B if they really want to play in the biggest stage in this planet. Plus, by qualifying through the hell called "Code B", they would improve their gameplay A LOT. Look at Idra and Huk: they can't do anything against Koreans people haven't even heard about, at least in a while. I find it really annoying to watch such one-sided games.
GOM is a businness company, and as such it should try to attract viewers, but since the Naniwa incident, I believe they lost a lot of foreign viewers.
Agree with that but there are so many major tournaments and money in the foreign scene that foreigners don't want to train 2 to 3 months in Korea just to qualify thou code B. That's right way is to earn a code A spot but foreigners don't want to waste their time on one major tournament that they can't win but play in 3 or 4 that they could win.
Well, to be fair I have always found it kinda stupid how team and players have this mentality. I am not saying that they should play for glory or something, but if you think about it the GSL has always given tons of exposure to players that do well there. Just look at idra, Huk and to a lesser extent Jinro. They all are some of the more popular foreigners and al lot of the exposure they got was from the freaking GSL and they didn't even win it.Hell, look how popular qxc became after he did well in the GSTL(he was popular before but not as much)
My point being that players going to the GSL to do well seems like a pretty sound long term investment.
giving code A/S spots to the foreign pros brings viewership. even though most foreign pros are a level below koreans and would have trouble qualifying code A, you need to give them incentive because they put more at stake for staying in Korea. i also think GSL helps delusional fans to realize how tough the competition is in Korea, and that they would think twice before ranking huk/idra the top 10 toss/zerg in the world. ( remember we had threads like that on TL?) its not that the best koreans are that much better than huk and idra, but there are like 100 koreans as good as them.
On February 01 2012 11:53 windsupernova wrote: I don't get it why do Koreans dominate in SC2 too?
I mean with BW one could understand that the Koreans had more money and thus were capable of focusing on training more. But what happened with SC2?Are our players just less hardworking?
I don't really mind the seeds tbh, what pisses me off us the multitude of foreigner fans who blindly defend and try to protect their pros as if they were 10 years old. If they are underperforming we should ask more from the foreign players, it always kills me when a foreigner losses we get 10 million posts making excuses for them.
The seeds are fine though, I'd actually advocate getting rid of the Code A seed and keep the up and down and code S seeds. Its not about making it easier for the foreigners, but its about giving them incentives to come over to Korea and at least have some certainty.
And LOL @ all the people still mad about the naniwa incident
You don't need more incentive than playing in the tournament with the absolute best competition and bypassing the horrors that are Code B qualifiers. If someone won't come over with a Code A seed, then that speaks volumes at how much confidence they have of actually doing well. If they are just interested in pay checks with the least amount of effort then Korea isn't for them.
A lot of foreigners have already shown they don't have the testicular fortitude to put in the same amount of work than the Koreans. Just on that barometer alone means they will get left behind.
I don't like even A let alone S. Merit is the only way and anything else is unfair to both Code B'ers struggling to gain a slot who has that slot gifted and to other groups who face earned compitition compared to group who faces gifted compitition.
Only exception is something like MLG where top people compete for 1 S slot and get it sometimes such as DRG, MMA and MC.
On February 01 2012 11:53 windsupernova wrote: I don't get it why do Koreans dominate in SC2 too?
I mean with BW one could understand that the Koreans had more money and thus were capable of focusing on training more. But what happened with SC2?Are our players just less hardworking?
I don't really mind the seeds tbh, what pisses me off us the multitude of foreigner fans who blindly defend and try to protect their pros as if they were 10 years old. If they are underperforming we should ask more from the foreign players, it always kills me when a foreigner losses we get 10 million posts making excuses for them.
The seeds are fine though, I'd actually advocate getting rid of the Code A seed and keep the up and down and code S seeds. Its not about making it easier for the foreigners, but its about giving them incentives to come over to Korea and at least have some certainty.
And LOL @ all the people still mad about the naniwa incident
You don't need more incentive than playing in the tournament with the absolute best competition and bypassing the horrors that are Code B qualifiers. If someone won't come over with a Code A seed, then that speaks volumes at how much confidence they have of actually doing well. If they are just interested in pay checks with the least amount of effort then Korea isn't for them.
A lot of foreigners have already shown they don't have the testicular fortitude to put in the same amount of work than the Koreans. Just on that barometer alone means they will get left behind.
Yep.. agree with this. I just find it hard to justify a seed, when the seeded players have never shown the dedication to actually do well in the toughest scene. As a "sportsman", you should strive to defeat the very best in the hardest possible scenario.
Wow, why is that the second choice? lol, why would you want to see less foreigners in the GSL? Obviously the ones who make it are on par, or close to it. Weird, and shocking... even the Koreans want more foreigners.
edit: Seed to Code A or Code B at least (from Major Events), but some sort of seed IMO, so the foreigners can prove themselves before hand.
I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
Its racist, why give a seed to somebody who isn't good? Because he has white skin? WTF Idra did not earn his way in, he was given a free ride and went 0-6 straight out of the entire league, he obviously doesn't belong.
On February 01 2012 00:42 red4ce wrote: To my knowledge, not a single notable Korean progamer has complained about foreigners getting seeded into code A/S. In fact when asked about it most of them welcome international participation in the GSL. 2 spots out of 32 isn't that big a deal. The new GSL format means if a player doesn't deserve to be in code whatever he'll drop out quickly anyways.
At any rate Mr. Chae has already addressed this. GOM is running a business and foreign players bring in more views than the 31st and 32nd best Korean would. Just think of it as a small sacrifice for the greater good.
Many of the invited foreign players show poor games and are knocked out quickly. Taking this into consideration, aren't some of the Korean players or teams unhappy with the increased foreign seeds?
The teams and players have no qualms. If you think about it the other way, Korean players already receive a higher number of seeds, and better placed seeds as well in foreign tournaments. It's the same principle as how foreign players don't have any complaints about that (although, I guess there may be some discontent?).
If I can use the World Cup as an example, it might be easier to explain. If the World Cup went purely by FIFA rankings, Korea would never be able to play, and it would have become a tournament that only South America and Europe enjoyed.
We don't want GSL to only establish itself as a Korean national league. We want to offer an incentive for foreign players to come to Korea, if they should ever have the opportunity. I think if they use the opportunity to come here and take in Korean pro-gaming culture, then they can become stronger than they are now.
GSL wants to provide those kind of opportunities. Also, I think that we were relatively successful at that last year. Two years ago, could you have imagined so many foreign players working with Korean teams and coming to Korea?
Whatever. This is why I stopped buying GSL (well coupled with that BS lying about NANI didnt earn a code S deal). I can watch any number of invitationals every week but before GSL stood for merit, the best of the best, not a popularity contest. I can watch invitatinals for FREE, thanks anyway GSL.
Chae has a point about gifted Koreans in foreign tounaments however the thing that made GSL unique and worth paying for IMO was pure merit. He should give GSL away for free if he's really interested in emulating foriegn tounaments who gift Koreans in his efforts twards reciprocity. Somehow I don't see that coming.
I think the seeding system is a means to an end, it's definitely not ideal and I'm sure it in itself is an attempt towards making it unnecessary in the future. It's hard to stabilize a pool of foreign talent in Korea, and it's not like GSL is exactly dominating Korean markets enough to rely purely on them.
On February 01 2012 12:33 v3chr0 wrote: "Stop seeding foreigners anyhow (280)"
Wow, why is that the second choice? lol, why would you want to see less foreigners in the GSL? Obviously the ones who make it are on par, or close to it. Weird, and shocking... even the Koreans want more foreigners.
I'll admit it's bad for the tournament, but I pay more attention to the foreign seeds. Like in last night's code A I only watched the Idra/Huk games and the Losira games. It didn't matter if the other games that night were good I just wanted to see how the foreigners did.
On February 01 2012 11:53 windsupernova wrote: I don't get it why do Koreans dominate in SC2 too?
I mean with BW one could understand that the Koreans had more money and thus were capable of focusing on training more. But what happened with SC2?Are our players just less hardworking?
I don't really mind the seeds tbh, what pisses me off us the multitude of foreigner fans who blindly defend and try to protect their pros as if they were 10 years old. If they are underperforming we should ask more from the foreign players, it always kills me when a foreigner losses we get 10 million posts making excuses for them.
The seeds are fine though, I'd actually advocate getting rid of the Code A seed and keep the up and down and code S seeds. Its not about making it easier for the foreigners, but its about giving them incentives to come over to Korea and at least have some certainty.
And LOL @ all the people still mad about the naniwa incident
the infrastructure is missing, it hasn't developed that far outside of korea (just now starting). bw is why koreans dominates in sc2.
i do want to see more white people fight koreans, perhaps code A should be abundant with free invites for those that are proven
They should definitely keep the invites--even if only for Code A.
If they take out the invites I think we'd see close to zero foreigner participation in the GSL. With so many quality foreigner tournies to play in there wouldn't be much incentive to play in the GSL which is so much harder to do well in.
On February 01 2012 11:53 windsupernova wrote: I don't get it why do Koreans dominate in SC2 too? ...
Their culture is developed around the game. It's more stream lined in their minds how to go be a pro, theyre in the area mostly all of the top pros, so its easier for them to practice with each other and develop. America for one, has its top players spread out from coast to coast, leaving it hard for these players to get together especially if they aren't taking in any money or sponsorship. You see how most players who go to Korea improve, it's just the atmosphere. Most people in America still don't know that competitive video-game sports even exist, getting support from people, especially your parents or relatives is a hard feat, so it's not something most young people can grow into.
I can't leave out that their practice regimens are very thorough. The mindset, atmosphere, and culture all help to build a lot of determination also.
Yup culture and infrastructure. West is good wrt FPS's because that's where huge infrastructure is built. Russians at chess. Americans at basketball. China at ping pong. etc etc etc.
GOM and everyone is trying hard to bring the SC2 community together where all can play together.
The reality is that only worked during early seasons of GSL. The skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is increasing and that is being obvious more and more.
No one should be given charity spots. Either you have what it takes to be there or you don't.
This MLG - GSL exchange program is getting a bit embarassing. GSL is sending Koreans to MLG and they roflstomp the field more or less. MLG is sending players to GSL and they get knocked out immidiately more or less.
The idea of bringing the community together is nice but in reality this isn't the right approach.
tb i dont much care if people deserve the spots or not (just look at Axslav leaving EG), if GOM gets more views/income then its worth it in the long run.
I think the gap between Koreans and foreigners will get wider over time. I follow many foreign streamers and they ladder but they don't actually practice an aspect of the game that needs improvement.
I can just imagine what's going on in the slayers house, for example, with meetings and discussions about strategies where over the ocean the best accomplishment of the day for a progamer is if he fooled Deezer into not stream sniping him. BIG DIFFERENCE!
I don't want freebies for foreigners. They have to compete.
I think 2-4 seeds somewhere besides straight in to code S is a good idea. Sure, some people didn't do great this time around. But they weren't all outclassed so horribly as some people are making it out to be. The top couple foreigners can definitely compete with at least some of the top tier Korean pros. I don't really think they should go straight into Code S though, lest we see similar repeats to this time too often. But it definitely draws in viewers, and I don't think 2-4 less spots in Code A or in the Up&Down Matches is too big of a loss for the Koreans. Seems like a worthwhile trade-off to me.
i think code A is far bcos as we have seen idra and huk both tapped out while sen played really well but can he win code a? code S is for the best of the best and u should earn it through code A
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
But some of the seeds *are* specifically for non-Koreans. (MLG springs to mind)
I don't really like the seeding. It kind of cheapens the whole thing. A foreigner qualifying should be a pretty big deal and should be really cool. When given seeds, though, it just doesn't seem to be as cool.
On February 01 2012 12:33 v3chr0 wrote: "Stop seeding foreigners anyhow (280)"
Wow, why is that the second choice? lol, why would you want to see less foreigners in the GSL? Obviously the ones who make it are on par, or close to it. Weird, and shocking... even the Koreans want more foreigners.
edit: Seed to Code A or Code B at least (from Major Events), but some sort of seed IMO, so the foreigners can prove themselves before hand.
Are you aware of the foreigner W-L in Korea over the past 2 months? It's abyssmal. They might be trying their best to improve, but any random code B korean can take a series off the best foreigners. Perhaps when/if the skill gap between foreigners and koreans shrinks, which it very well could if they made long-term plans for staying in Korea and battle through qualifiers.
no more seeds for anyone, including korean seeds into MLG. you cannot take away one without taking away the other. moreover, if you take away seeds from foreigners for gsl, no one is likely to travel to compete in korea for the shitty prize pool when they can make more money at home.
people keep on thinking foreigners are gonna get the code S spots when Mr Chae clearly explained its not just for the foreigners but whoever does well during the time period so if lets just say MVP gets knocked out of code S and straight into Code B and he wins MLG winter mr chae will obivously give him a code s seed
I am ok with the code A seeds. I see no reason to give anyone a code S seed. I think code S should stay as something that has to be earned through the GSL or it takes away from the prestige in my opinion.
While it might be hard for foreign pros to stay and practice in Korea for extended periods of time should they fail to qualify on the first try (I assume they'd have to produce some results for their team to support their stay), I feel no seeds should ever be given out. Even if most foreigners can't enjoy the benefits of a team house and the Korean practice environment, that doesn't justify cutting them slack. Imoho there's even more need for random foreigners to prove themselves through qualifiers.
I see the foreign and the Korean scene as two different things now. I can still support and enjoy watching foreign games, but the Korean players are in a different league, and the gap seems to be constantly growing.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
This is a ridiculous statement. Judging a player over a single match set? Are you crazy? The community is so quick to judge it's unbelievable. Not too long ago HuK was considered the best foreign Protoss, and before that IdrA the best foreign Zerg. Both of them have proven they have what it takes to take on some of the best korean pro gamers. They both have wins against MC, MVP, BOXER, MMA, etc. Anyone can lose a match. To dismiss an entire scene of players based on a bo3 loss is atrocious and you should have nothing to do with eSports, much less Starcraft.
Both HuK and IdrA have proven themselves in the GSL before, just because they struggled this time doesn't mean anything. Not even a month ago people were doubting Nestea, and a couple months before that they were talking about how MC was terrible. Get over it. Players struggle, and the ones who are willing to fight through it even with all the doubt are the ones who come out on top. I look forward to HuK and IdrA's improvement as well as the rest of the foreign scene.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
This is a ridiculous statement. Judging a player over a single match set? Are you crazy? The community is so quick to judge it's unbelievable. Not too long ago HuK was considered the best foreign Protoss, and before that IdrA the best foreign Zerg. Both of them have proven they have what it takes to take on some of the best korean pro gamers. They both have wins against MC, MVP, BOXER, MMA, etc. Anyone can lose a match. To dismiss an entire scene of players based on a bo3 loss is atrocious and you should have nothing to do with eSports, much less Starcraft.
Both HuK and IdrA have proven themselves in the GSL before, just because they struggled this time doesn't mean anything. Not even a month ago people were doubting Nestea, and a couple months before that they were talking about how MC was terrible. Get over it. Players struggle, and the ones who are willing to fight through it even with all the doubt are the ones who come out on top. I look forward to HuK and IdrA's improvement as well as the rest of the foreign scene.
Huk and idra had to lose more than a bo3 to drop to code a and then drop out. Also "best foreigner" isn't saying much, not that they even are the best foreigners.
Foreigners deserve at best Code A seed.Please dun give them Code S seeds. I believe they have to fight through Code A to get to Code S.It just does not seem fair to others who could be better than them.
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
But some of the seeds *are* specifically for non-Koreans. (MLG springs to mind)
That's because it's an MLG GSL exchange program where the MLG seeds are specifically *for* koreans. They haven't said anything else about the two code S spots, but also getting top 3 in MLG nets you code S as well, regardless of ethnicity.
On February 01 2012 17:52 Gheed wrote: Huk and idra had to lose more than a bo3 to drop to code a and then drop out.
Edit: What I'd written wasn't quite accurate, so here's HuK's case, just for an example. In the Nov 2011 GSL tournament, he started out Code S and won 3 matches and lost 2, which wound up putting him 3rd in his group and dropped him to Code A. That seems like competitive performance to me, just wasn't good enough.
I expected both HuK and IdrA to fall down to Code b to be honest; HuK wasn't able/ or just didn't practice as much as he usually did. He only could practice this week after 6 weeks of no pc (according to his twitter). I'm sure HuK will find it's way back without too much problem if he just goes back to his practicing habits.
IdrA's PvZ is just abysmall, so yeah no surprise there.
Like plenty of posters before me, I believe there should be no Code S or Up-and-down seed at all, Code S is something that should be earned by going through the entirety of Code A. And seeds should only be given according to the results of a player, regardless of ethnicity.
But I do hope that the GSTL will make arrangements that we will be able to see some foreign teams participating, even if it's through "online" (seriously, what is not played online in starcraft 2?).
On February 01 2012 17:52 Gheed wrote: Huk and idra had to lose more than a bo3 to drop to code a and then drop out.
Edit: What I'd written wasn't quite accurate, so here's HuK's case, just for an example. In the Nov 2011 GSL tournament, he started out Code S and won 3 matches and lost 2, which wound up putting him 3rd in his group and dropped him to Code A. That seems like competitive performance to me, just wasn't good enough.
And then he went 0-2 vs Kean, 1-3 in the Up/Downs and 1-2 vs Terious.
That's 2-7 in Code A since he dropped out of Code S. No one can possibly pretend a 28% win rate should land you anywhere but Code B.
stop giving foreigners seeds. We are terrible. Just look at HuK and idrAs play today. wasn't even close to the Korean's they were playing ( to be fairt hough, Sen played reasonably well)
May seem harsh, but just my opinion.
This is a ridiculous statement. Judging a player over a single match set? Are you crazy? The community is so quick to judge it's unbelievable. Not too long ago HuK was considered the best foreign Protoss, and before that IdrA the best foreign Zerg. Both of them have proven they have what it takes to take on some of the best korean pro gamers. They both have wins against MC, MVP, BOXER, MMA, etc. Anyone can lose a match. To dismiss an entire scene of players based on a bo3 loss is atrocious and you should have nothing to do with eSports, much less Starcraft.
Both HuK and IdrA have proven themselves in the GSL before, just because they struggled this time doesn't mean anything. Not even a month ago people were doubting Nestea, and a couple months before that they were talking about how MC was terrible. Get over it. Players struggle, and the ones who are willing to fight through it even with all the doubt are the ones who come out on top. I look forward to HuK and IdrA's improvement as well as the rest of the foreign scene.
Huk is still the best foreign Protoss and Idra is still once of the best foreign Zergs.
Huk has never beaten MVP, he beat MMA almost a year ago, anyone can win in PvP and MC has beaten Huk too. Boxer is not a top player.
Idra has taken games from MC but never beaten him overall, he's never beaten MMA or MVP either (no ladder doesn't count. Boxer is not a top player.
All Huk has proven in GSL is that he managed to qualify by a very easy bracket almost a year ago and then much like Ensnare, Hongun, Trickster and many other players he was able to linger in Code S achieving very little because it was so difficult to drop out of Code S. His overall win rate in Korea is 44%. He doesn't have a >50% win rate in any matchup. That is not doing well and it is not proving yourself. Another key point is that in his entire GSL career Huk has won one set vs an (at the time) top player. The best of 1 vs Nestea where Nestea completely threw a won game away.
Huk has never looked solid in Korea, he's looked like someone who can beat players in their worst matchup's (Killer in PvP) and will lose the first time he meets a player who is solid vs Protoss.
Idra's GSL run was over a year ago, it has no relevance to the current scene. Some of the players he beat don't even play the game anymore. This run he went 1-6 and aside from Nestea he wasn't playing the pinnacle of Korean starcraft either. Lucky is known as a weak ZvZer and Avenge is a no name.
Everyone has a chance to get into code A. All they have to do is fight through code B like everyone else there. Thats why all the code A and S guys are all so good. They have to be to make it through the gauntlet that is code B.
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
Uh pretty sure thats not true, or else Koreans like hero would get code s seeds for winning Dreamhack and puma would get seeds for winning NASL.
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
Uh pretty sure thats not true, or else Koreans like hero would get code s seeds for winning Dreamhack and puma would get seeds for winning NASL.
Wow, that's actually a good point. Never thought of that!
In terms of achievements, they both are indeed better than Idra and Sen, I believe. Idra has plenty of gold under his belt, but except IEM all of them are invitationals, I think.
On February 01 2012 11:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Code A seeds based on foreign tournament placings seems fair enough. Gives the option to players to base themselves over in Korea without taking a ridiculous gamble.
Getting into the GSL is ridiculously difficult now, and without that exposure it seems the gap between the foreign and Korean scenes is widening. The carrot that is a Code A spot would at least help foreigners who want to go to Korea a first foot in the door, and from there hopefully they'd get to the levels required for Code S.
That said one of my main annoyances over the way the seedings have worked thus far is that not enough people are basing themselves in Korea and sticking it out. They'll get a Code A run, get knocked down and not come back.
Its one thing to give code A seeds to give incentives for foreigners to go to Korea, buts its another to give seeds to foreigners who were planning on staying in Korea REGARDLESS of being gifted a seed. If you look at all the top foreign players in Korea, the majority of them planned to stay long-term to get better and play with the best. There's a lot of people arguing that it makes the transition easier, but giving a code a seed to Huk and Naniwa after they had stayed in Korea for months is pretty silly. Gom is basically saying, "even with Korean training, foreigners can't be as good as Koreans."
On February 01 2012 11:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Code A seeds based on foreign tournament placings seems fair enough. Gives the option to players to base themselves over in Korea without taking a ridiculous gamble.
Getting into the GSL is ridiculously difficult now, and without that exposure it seems the gap between the foreign and Korean scenes is widening. The carrot that is a Code A spot would at least help foreigners who want to go to Korea a first foot in the door, and from there hopefully they'd get to the levels required for Code S.
That said one of my main annoyances over the way the seedings have worked thus far is that not enough people are basing themselves in Korea and sticking it out. They'll get a Code A run, get knocked down and not come back.
Its one thing to give code A seeds to give incentives for foreigners to go to Korea, buts its another to give seeds to foreigners who were planning on staying in Korea REGARDLESS of being gifted a seed. If you look at all the top foreign players in Korea, the majority of them planned to stay long-term to get better and play with the best. There's a lot of people arguing that it makes the transition easier, but giving a code a seed to Huk and Naniwa after they had stayed in Korea for months is pretty silly. Gom is basically saying, "even with Korean training, foreigners can't be as good as Koreans."
Those seeds couldn't be helped though, that's what Huk and Naniwa earned through their placing in the MLG, right?
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
Uh pretty sure thats not true, or else Koreans like hero would get code s seeds for winning Dreamhack and puma would get seeds for winning NASL.
I think with the new code S/code A format, they did infact introduce the option of handing out code S (2 per season) and code A spots based on international success.
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
Uh pretty sure thats not true, or else Koreans like hero would get code s seeds for winning Dreamhack and puma would get seeds for winning NASL.
I think with the new code S/code A format, they did infact introduce the option of handing out code S (2 per season) and code A spots based on international success.
That's what they say officially, but what they do is implying otherwise. Or they really believe that winning the taiwanese Battlenet Invitational weights more than winning Dreamhack once or NASL twice.
On February 01 2012 11:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Code A seeds based on foreign tournament placings seems fair enough. Gives the option to players to base themselves over in Korea without taking a ridiculous gamble.
Getting into the GSL is ridiculously difficult now, and without that exposure it seems the gap between the foreign and Korean scenes is widening. The carrot that is a Code A spot would at least help foreigners who want to go to Korea a first foot in the door, and from there hopefully they'd get to the levels required for Code S.
That said one of my main annoyances over the way the seedings have worked thus far is that not enough people are basing themselves in Korea and sticking it out. They'll get a Code A run, get knocked down and not come back.
Its one thing to give code A seeds to give incentives for foreigners to go to Korea, buts its another to give seeds to foreigners who were planning on staying in Korea REGARDLESS of being gifted a seed. If you look at all the top foreign players in Korea, the majority of them planned to stay long-term to get better and play with the best. There's a lot of people arguing that it makes the transition easier, but giving a code a seed to Huk and Naniwa after they had stayed in Korea for months is pretty silly. Gom is basically saying, "even with Korean training, foreigners can't be as good as Koreans."
Those seeds couldn't be helped though, that's what Huk and Naniwa earned through their placing in the MLG, right?
But thats exactly the problem though. MLG code A seeds are only given to foreigners, even if Koreans place higher. Why should Naniwa who had been training in Korea for an extensive period of time, be able to get a seed for placing not even top 5. If you recall Naniwa got 3 code A seeds from MLG. Also Huk was given a seed for the hell of it months after he started training in Korea. This was before the whole MLG deal took place.
The foreigners haven't really proved that they deserve the invites, so no I dont think they should keep them really "/ The only foreigners who even made it past the first round where SjoW and Select.
Didn't Huk prove himself going through qualifiers and actually staying in Code S for a few seasons? I think if a foreigner can get top 4 in an event like MLG, IEM, ...etc (tournaments with several good koreans in it) I beleive they deserve a chance to prove themselves in korea with a seed in code s or at least a seed in code a. Its a win-win scenario for both gom and foreigners.
On February 01 2012 16:54 rift wrote: They aren't foreigner seeds. They're for anyone who has had success in international tournaments, regardless of ethnicity.
Uh pretty sure thats not true, or else Koreans like hero would get code s seeds for winning Dreamhack and puma would get seeds for winning NASL.
Wow, that's actually a good point. Never thought of that!
In terms of achievements, they both are indeed better than Idra and Sen, I believe. Idra has plenty of gold under his belt, but except IEM all of them are invitationals, I think.
It is still correct. As they formulated it, they are basically free to choose anyone they deem deserving. And they specifically mentioned that KR players are not exempt from the selection. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.
It is impossible to find a 100% fair metric of "player merit", so I'm fine with it.
Well since a foreigner needs to move to korea, which is still a big deal for your personal life, I believe it is fair to have an easier road into the GSL for foreigners. But if the Code S seeds are reduced to one foreigner seed and maybe even have a qualification tournament (haven't heard this exists) for this slot might be better solution than we have now. Just for the record:
Poll: If there were less foreigners in the GSL....
I would still watch every game possible. (22)
56%
I would still watch some matches, but fewer than before. (10)
26%
I wouldn't care about GSL anymore. (5)
13%
I would watch even more GSL. (2)
5%
39 total votes
Your vote: If there were less foreigners in the GSL....
(Vote): I would still watch every game possible. (Vote): I would still watch some matches, but fewer than before. (Vote): I wouldn't care about GSL anymore. (Vote): I would watch even more GSL.
But then arguably maybe they should have to qualify. They've never really done well. I don't want to see them seeded into code S just to see them lose, go to code A, and lose 2-0 there as well.
HuK and Idra are probably the best NA players. Their recent performances in GSL may or may not be indicative of their skill level but they do raise questions.
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
Stephano is the best foreigner. Stop the denial, guys
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
Stephano is the best foreigner. Stop the denial, guys
How can you even make that claim without him beating top koreans is beyond me. Isn't the biggest thing he won IPL where he basically dodged all good koreans?
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
Stephano is the best foreigner. Stop the denial, guys
He said one of the best, stop the Stephano crusade please.
And I'm really tired of watching foreigners go without a single win time and time again after being given seeds. If they were worthy of competing in the GSL they could qualify like everyone else. I could easily find 10+ korean B-teamers I would rather see in code A than the pathetic foreigner performances we've gotten.
I did agree with Idras seeding though since he was a mainstay in the GSL for so long, but even he went down without too much of a fight.
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
Stephano is the best foreigner. Stop the denial, guys
He said one of the best, stop the Stephano crusade please.
And I'm really tired of watching foreigners go without a single win time and time again after being given seeds. If they were worthy of competing in the GSL they could qualify like everyone else. I could easily find 10+ korean B-teamers I would rather see in code A than the pathetic foreigner performances we've gotten.
I did agree with Idras seeding though since he was a mainstay in the GSL for so long, but even he went down without too much of a fight.
I agree with you in general that seeds isnt the way to go. That being said, I really like the idea of MLG working as a second qualifier for GSL. That is if they actually hand out the price to the winner.
People complaining about foreigner seeds to get over it - in many major tournaments around the world (e.g. tennis), wildcards are given out to people. Although, I'll comment that I feel that 2 Code S seeds is a bit much, they should reduce to 1.
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
Stephano is the best foreigner. Stop the denial, guys
He said one of the best, stop the Stephano crusade please.
And I'm really tired of watching foreigners go without a single win time and time again after being given seeds. If they were worthy of competing in the GSL they could qualify like everyone else. I could easily find 10+ korean B-teamers I would rather see in code A than the pathetic foreigner performances we've gotten.
I did agree with Idras seeding though since he was a mainstay in the GSL for so long, but even he went down without too much of a fight.
I agree with you in general that seeds isnt the way to go. That being said, I really like the idea of MLG working as a second qualifier for GSL. That is if they actually hand out the price to the winner.
I would agree with that if everyone got even chances. Seeing lower finished foreigners getting a seed then higher finished koreans just cause they are foreigners is just silly. It's not a qualifier, its a free pass considering how low you can finish and still get a pass while the koreans need to get 1 - 3rd place.
On February 01 2012 12:33 Robinsa wrote: I think they should give only code a except to the winners of MLG that should have code s. They also need to seed Naniwa now. By not doing so they behave like 5 year olds with a grudge. He's obviously one of the best foreigners.
obviously?
Well only Idra and Huk can really compete with him in terms of acchivements. I think he has proved that hes one of the absolute best foreigners.
Stephano is the best foreigner. Stop the denial, guys
How can you even make that claim without him beating top koreans is beyond me. Isn't the biggest thing he won IPL where he basically dodged all good koreans?
yeah, he's only beaten drg, hero, lucky, violet, mkp, thestc, boxer, etc. All of these are proven code A+ players.
Foreigners should earn the right for Code S. There should be an tournament where the best foreigners Play. The winner and 2nd placed player should earn the seeds. And not giving the seeds blindly to players.
EPT
perhaps the best non GSL player that make it through a MLG season can earn a spot? LOL 
