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american people you are so funny when you speak about french people ... stephano was so tired he preferes forfeit the finals where the problem ? the barcraft shows a good final, he loses money, he loses some fans, he loses an other awards but it's his choice ! please don't speak about his behaviour and go to learn how to say "good game" to idra.
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On January 31 2012 22:53 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:50 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 31 2012 22:47 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:45 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:44 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. That is their decision. Yes, and we respect them more as competitors for it. I'm arguing Stephano doesn't deserve that respect. Yes, and others argue that going from X gets more respect for doing something therefore Y doesn't deserve any is treating players as your personal puppet. Are you still really pushing your ideas on this? Honestly? After all those pages. If anything, it's the same dogmatism coming from you. You merely state the right to forfeit was "proven not existing". Please be so kind and refer to those alleged.
Pages 93-95 of LR, 103 onwards until 113. You're welcome, but you can just look up your past posts. Replies always followed until people got tired of repeating themselves.
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On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937
He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play.
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Wow , how can you turn down finals even if you are as good him?
Energy drinks need to sponsor Stephano!
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On January 31 2012 22:27 The Void wrote:
I like the way Stephano handles it.
nothing wrong with FFing matches. tournaments need rules, so player knowing what they facing. all good. no drama. just a bunch of childish people hating around.
move on.
People are not "hating around" i don't hate stephano or any other player what i find sad is how so many people think it's ok for a player to forfeit the final series of a tournament that probably took many people a lot of effort to put together instead of actually saying "well maybe stephano should schedule and manage his agenda better and not blindly accept invatations and make a commitment he doesn't know he can fulfill".
I don't know about you but i need to make commitments in my working life and i have people heavily depending on me fulfilling this commitments in time, i don't say to these people "well i knew i said i would get this done today but i was kinda tired yesterday so i went to bed" what i end up doing is working all night if that is what it takes and make no mistake i don't enjoy that at all so how do i solve this? When i make an important commitment i make sure i can get it done in time without putting myself through the harsh pain of working all day and night.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract.
Except that it happens all the time.. John Terry just did it for a month and you can find countless other examples in the CL. Besides that, once a season is underway, the default state of the professional athlete is injured. Most of them just don't get talked about, unless they're serious. In no way is being sleepy serious.
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On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play.
That is not the definition of champion in the dictionnary. Why do you implicitly say that Stephano isn't a champion ? 
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On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote:On January 31 2012 22:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 22:28 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 21:56 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 21:49 MonsterJukeBox wrote:On January 31 2012 21:44 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
He was not supposed to win the prize of 4th place as he was qualified for the final. He did not know beforehand and 600 dollars when you just got 100k... I don't know about the 100k you are talking about, but 600 dollars is more than I make every month so I don't know why someone would not take that. Oh and you guys are right, of course he could not have foreseen him being placed 4th, but I only think it's fair. The fans deserve a finals, and they cannot just postpone the finals to another day due to several obvious reasons. They could have played a showmatch and it would have been the right choice. You cannot just take away his second place and put him in 4th place. How is Illusion #2. He lost to Stephano in the semis, but I don't want to blame ONOG. They had to make a decision on the fly and fast, so.. they will learn from it and probably cast from replays next time. Illusion is obviously 2nd because he played in the finals. Stephano didn't, so I don't know where you're getting your idea that he's 2nd? See, there's two pespectives to this, one isn't more right than the other, so it was ONOGs decision. There are no two perspectives on it. Stephano is technically 2nd because he reached the finals and did give a default win to Kas. Illusion LOST to Stephano in a single elimination tournament so the best he could reach at that point is 3rd place. If you or any other person in the world don't want to understand it or simply ignore it, please do but don't tell me that Illusion actually deserved or got 2nd place, because its not true. ONOG decided to change the tournament format after Stephano did forfeit and only PUNISHED Stephano for that in the heat of the battle if you ask me. To the person who asked me if I wanted to happen stuff like this again and if I think Stephano should be punished. No I don't want this to happen again thats why I said you need contracts between players and tournament hosts and a punishment would be to just do not invite him again, but as I already said as well, I do think the tournament would hurt themselves as Stephano is a good player and pulls lots of viewers. As Arew said in another thread, ONOG is simply stealing money from Stephano at this point. Either disqualify him and make it clear OR give him his deserved 2nd place IMO. To Jibba: In ANY sports an athlete an forfeit at any point if he thinks he's incapable of completing the task or cannot finish the match. If a national soccer team cannot continue due to exhaustion they will forfeit the match. Obviously they will try but its a far bigger stage and usually its not 1v1 but teamgames. In boxing / fighting if you don't feel in good condition you forfeit or postpone. Stephano offered to postpone / reschedule and that wasn't possible so he did forfeit. How often have you seen boxing matches been rescheduled, just because one of the fighters wasn't fit at that point. It happened before. Technical k.O? Same story. The boxer wants to fight, but he cannot so he 'has' to or will be forced to forfeit. Stephano probably wanted to play, but he was tired so he couldn't really play. No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me. Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong?
no that's obviously the same what i am thinking.
the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it.
should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG.
BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected.
despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story.
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Wow, can't believe this is 60 pages long. I doubt there's much unique discussion going on, but I'll weigh in:
It's really not that big of a deal, after all, he forfeited the money and the glory, but he should really learn how to manage his time better. Making multiple commitments and not being able to fulfill all of them just reeks of unprofessionalism, something he'll need to get over if he really wants to be a doctor.
But in the end, we still got a good finals and someone walked home with the prize money. Hopefully Stephano learned something.
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On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote:
Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on.
Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex.
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On January 31 2012 22:49 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:47 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:45 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:44 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. That is their decision. Yes, and we respect them more as competitors for it. I'm arguing Stephano doesn't deserve that respect. Yes, and others argue that going from X gets more respect for doing something therefore Y doesn't deserve any is treating players as your personal puppet. When most other players do it, it becomes the standard. Since he's below that standard, he gets disrespect for it.
you only respect people are above some arbitrary line or top 50% or?
im still undecided what i think about this whole thing. i want to be supportive of stephano but at the same time, he knew what he was getting in to when he signed up. as far as i know they were 'miles' behind schedule? so its quite bad that he felt that he was already pushing his late night limits.
On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play.
how can you base your idea of a champion based on someone willing to go through pain to play? 90% of the case the players willing to go through pain end their career early or fuck themselves up for life. then we just sweep under the rug the hoardes of people who try their hardest, give it all, break themselves, then fail. idolizing the few examples where it paid off. if we are really gonna give stephano shit for not having the eye of the tiger, well i think everyone already knew that, he doesnt care that much about starcraft, he isnt in it for the sport, hes only playing for the money. hes said that himself.
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I don't think enough attention has been given to the racist comments made by the commentator. Not Bitter, the other guy -- I forget his name. Jesus Christ, how is that professional -- at all? How can someone get away with saying something like that in a professional setting? Say what you want, have any opinion you want about us French -- but don't fucking take it to a professional casting environment. It's disrespectful, and shows clear ignorance of history.
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Well
Maybe it would sound stupid... But did anyone really ask Stephano if he knew about whole barcrafts situation all around USA ?
I mean, I was watchin SCAN and didnt really knew that ONOG was sponsored by fans, in order to have massive barcraft tournament  I admit that the fast disconnect was stupid, but maybe he just didnt know that about the whole situation.
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On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote:On January 31 2012 22:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 22:28 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 21:56 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 21:49 MonsterJukeBox wrote:
[quote]
I don't know about the 100k you are talking about, but 600 dollars is more than I make every month so I don't know why someone would not take that.
Oh and you guys are right, of course he could not have foreseen him being placed 4th, but I only think it's fair. The fans deserve a finals, and they cannot just postpone the finals to another day due to several obvious reasons. They could have played a showmatch and it would have been the right choice. You cannot just take away his second place and put him in 4th place. How is Illusion #2. He lost to Stephano in the semis, but I don't want to blame ONOG. They had to make a decision on the fly and fast, so.. they will learn from it and probably cast from replays next time. Illusion is obviously 2nd because he played in the finals. Stephano didn't, so I don't know where you're getting your idea that he's 2nd? See, there's two pespectives to this, one isn't more right than the other, so it was ONOGs decision. There are no two perspectives on it. Stephano is technically 2nd because he reached the finals and did give a default win to Kas. Illusion LOST to Stephano in a single elimination tournament so the best he could reach at that point is 3rd place. If you or any other person in the world don't want to understand it or simply ignore it, please do but don't tell me that Illusion actually deserved or got 2nd place, because its not true. ONOG decided to change the tournament format after Stephano did forfeit and only PUNISHED Stephano for that in the heat of the battle if you ask me. To the person who asked me if I wanted to happen stuff like this again and if I think Stephano should be punished. No I don't want this to happen again thats why I said you need contracts between players and tournament hosts and a punishment would be to just do not invite him again, but as I already said as well, I do think the tournament would hurt themselves as Stephano is a good player and pulls lots of viewers. As Arew said in another thread, ONOG is simply stealing money from Stephano at this point. Either disqualify him and make it clear OR give him his deserved 2nd place IMO. To Jibba: In ANY sports an athlete an forfeit at any point if he thinks he's incapable of completing the task or cannot finish the match. If a national soccer team cannot continue due to exhaustion they will forfeit the match. Obviously they will try but its a far bigger stage and usually its not 1v1 but teamgames. In boxing / fighting if you don't feel in good condition you forfeit or postpone. Stephano offered to postpone / reschedule and that wasn't possible so he did forfeit. How often have you seen boxing matches been rescheduled, just because one of the fighters wasn't fit at that point. It happened before. Technical k.O? Same story. The boxer wants to fight, but he cannot so he 'has' to or will be forced to forfeit. Stephano probably wanted to play, but he was tired so he couldn't really play. No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me. Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story.
No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money.
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On January 31 2012 22:57 LogiiK wrote:
american people you are so funny when you speak about french people ... stephano was so tired he preferes forfeit the finals where the problem ? the barcraft shows a good final, he loses money, he loses some fans, he loses an other awards but it's his choice ! please don't speak about his behaviour and go to learn how to say "good game" to idra.
I agree that people shouldn't stereotype countries based on a single player's behavior, but Stephano shouldn't have even taken the invitation if he wasn't going to be able to finish the tournament *because he was too tired*. That's hardly an excuse. If there was a family emergency of some sort, okay. But he knew how long the tournament was going to last, and he made the conscious decision to double-book overlapping tournaments and then forfeit one after being disrespectful towards the tournament's admins (giving them ultimatums), and that's not right. His lack of professionalism is a problem (and it's a problem in other players who don't respect rules too- not just Stephano). And it's not as simple as "all right everyone nothing to see here let's all just move on because it happened in the past". No, it should be addressed and discussed, because that type of behavior is unacceptable.
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France266 Posts
On January 31 2012 21:12 Nihilnovi wrote:
I for one hope he gets punished by his team, this is ridiculous and extremely unproffesional.
[...].
Actually this statement disregards the whole culture of Millenium's staff. Millenium's aim is to make a living out of esport, and that's it. They basically don't want to be involved with the international community, nor do they want to look nice to the foreign people, as long as their players are invited in big events and are able to make money. Millenium's manager spoke about the ONoG final issue yesterday night, and explained that as far as he was concerned, this kind of forfeits happens all the time (which is pretty much untruth, how often in the SC2 era a player has forfeited in final of a four-figures prize pool tournament?), and that subsequently Stephano's behavior didn't matter at all. According to him, the whole thing is just another TL.net made-up drama, and he considers the whole thing as a close cased, since he finds that ONoG rightfully handled the situation by placing Stephano 4th.
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On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote:
Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex.
Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in.
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On January 31 2012 23:13 Candadar wrote:
I don't think enough attention has been given to the racist comments made by the commentator. Not Bitter, the other guy -- I forget his name. Jesus Christ, how is that professional -- at all? How can someone get away with saying something like that in a professional setting? Say what you want, have any opinion you want about us French -- but don't fucking take it to a professional casting environment. It's disrespectful, and shows clear ignorance of history.
what did he say
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On January 31 2012 23:16 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:13 Candadar wrote:
I don't think enough attention has been given to the racist comments made by the commentator. Not Bitter, the other guy -- I forget his name. Jesus Christ, how is that professional -- at all? How can someone get away with saying something like that in a professional setting? Say what you want, have any opinion you want about us French -- but don't fucking take it to a professional casting environment. It's disrespectful, and shows clear ignorance of history. what did he say
He said something along the lines of "Ah, staying to typical French fashion and surrendering before he even starts." Except with far more eloquence and doucheyness.
Even Bitter turned to him and was like, "Why did you say that"
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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2012 23:12 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:49 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:47 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:45 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:44 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. That is their decision. Yes, and we respect them more as competitors for it. I'm arguing Stephano doesn't deserve that respect. Yes, and others argue that going from X gets more respect for doing something therefore Y doesn't deserve any is treating players as your personal puppet. When most other players do it, it becomes the standard. Since he's below that standard, he gets disrespect for it. you only respect people are above some arbitrary line or top 50% or? This is how all societal standards and ethics are formed.
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