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On January 31 2012 23:14 MaHi wrote:Well Maybe it would sound stupid... But did anyone really ask Stephano if he knew about whole barcrafts situation all around USA ? I mean, I was watchin SCAN and didnt really knew that ONOG was sponsored by fans, in order to have massive barcraft tournament  I admit that the fast disconnect was stupid, but maybe he just didnt know that about the whole situation.
i also thought about it.
i don't think he really knew it. i think it could have made a difference - BUT he stated that he would have played terrible if he had to. and offered to reschedule - for me thats more fair to the fans than playing 3 quick terrible matches (knowing he isn't in shape anymore) and taking 2nd (maybe 1st since he normally plays with one hand bound on his back crushing "pros").
so it could have made a difference but his decision is still the best and all we could ask for.
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On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote:
Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex.
You should look at MLB playoff games. Specifically Red Sox - Yankees (2004).
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I don't understand this community. You scream, kick, and cry that this is a legitimate sport and needs to be viewed as one and that you want it to become huge in our culture. Yet, every time someone does something completely unprofessional like Stephano did or whatever and people compare it to real sports -- you scream "B-BUT, YOU CAN'T COMPARE IT TO REAL SPORTS!!!!"
Sports may be violent, they may be physically demanding, or they may even be video games -- who the fuck cares. What you should care about, though, is that professionalism is always kept to the highest standard. Say what you want about Hockey and its violence, but at least people are professional about it. The same standard should be held to Starcraft, if you have any hope of it blowing up in our culture and not being an economic bubble. It needs standards that have to be upheld. Simple as that.
As someone else said earlier:
Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities.
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It was a bit careless by Stephano to not see this coming when he joined the tournament, but even so I can't really blame his decision nor ONOG. Just unfortunate that it turned out the way it did really :/
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I don't think I understand why people say he knew that this scheduling mishap might happen. It says the tournament ran late. Doesn't that mean the expected schedule was off, and he it was at a time when he didn't think he would have to play..?
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On January 31 2012 22:57 LogiiK wrote:
american people you are so funny when you speak about french people ... stephano was so tired he preferes forfeit the finals where the problem ? the barcraft shows a good final, he loses money, he loses some fans, he loses an other awards but it's his choice ! please don't speak about his behaviour and go to learn how to say "good game" to idra.
Shhhhh, if you don't want people trolling us then we shouldn't give them reasons to.
The least Stephano could have done is give a proper reason as to why he had to leave, "I gotta sleep lol" is not an excuse, his opponents were probably just as tired as him, why should he get a special treatment?
All in all you can't really defend him, so let's not play the victims here.
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On January 31 2012 23:25 ShrieK wrote:
I don't think I understand why people say he knew that this scheduling mishap might happen. It says the tournament ran late. Doesn't that mean the expected schedule was off, and he it was at a time when he didn't think he would have to play..?
It was late cuz of waiting for Stephano ^^
he played SCAN inv before (which he won) and wanted a break to eat.
he is streaming know btw (like a bawwws) 
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On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play.
Meanwhile in the real world people do what Stephano did all the time. In cross-country skiing and track and field people sign up for multiple races/distances/events and if they're in top form they might participate in them all. More often than not they withdraw from one or two races, not because of injury but due to feeling tired and to reserve strength.
But I guess Northug is no champion : /
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On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote:On January 31 2012 22:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 22:28 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 21:56 mTw|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
They could have played a showmatch and it would have been the right choice. You cannot just take away his second place and put him in 4th place. How is Illusion #2. He lost to Stephano in the semis, but I don't want to blame ONOG. They had to make a decision on the fly and fast, so.. they will learn from it and probably cast from replays next time. Illusion is obviously 2nd because he played in the finals. Stephano didn't, so I don't know where you're getting your idea that he's 2nd? See, there's two pespectives to this, one isn't more right than the other, so it was ONOGs decision. There are no two perspectives on it. Stephano is technically 2nd because he reached the finals and did give a default win to Kas. Illusion LOST to Stephano in a single elimination tournament so the best he could reach at that point is 3rd place. If you or any other person in the world don't want to understand it or simply ignore it, please do but don't tell me that Illusion actually deserved or got 2nd place, because its not true. ONOG decided to change the tournament format after Stephano did forfeit and only PUNISHED Stephano for that in the heat of the battle if you ask me. To the person who asked me if I wanted to happen stuff like this again and if I think Stephano should be punished. No I don't want this to happen again thats why I said you need contracts between players and tournament hosts and a punishment would be to just do not invite him again, but as I already said as well, I do think the tournament would hurt themselves as Stephano is a good player and pulls lots of viewers. As Arew said in another thread, ONOG is simply stealing money from Stephano at this point. Either disqualify him and make it clear OR give him his deserved 2nd place IMO. To Jibba: In ANY sports an athlete an forfeit at any point if he thinks he's incapable of completing the task or cannot finish the match. If a national soccer team cannot continue due to exhaustion they will forfeit the match. Obviously they will try but its a far bigger stage and usually its not 1v1 but teamgames. In boxing / fighting if you don't feel in good condition you forfeit or postpone. Stephano offered to postpone / reschedule and that wasn't possible so he did forfeit. How often have you seen boxing matches been rescheduled, just because one of the fighters wasn't fit at that point. It happened before. Technical k.O? Same story. The boxer wants to fight, but he cannot so he 'has' to or will be forced to forfeit. Stephano probably wanted to play, but he was tired so he couldn't really play. No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me. Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money.
But he is not paid by the tournament or the viewers. He is paid by his team and you have no idea what he is paid for. How do you know he is paid for entertaining viewers. Maybe they just pay him to quickly make some money on SC2 bubble and then move on (see someone else's post about goals of Millenium). And since he did not break tournament rules, taking his prizemoney is incorrect decision. If tournament had rules against forfeits then it would be ok.
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I understand Stephano's decision, and seriously this does not deserve so much drama.
Today, Stephano has to play EOSL and the MSI pro cup. In both tournament he has reached the semi finals.
Playing a BO7 against terran at 3 a.m. while being already exhausted from having played tournaments all day, would have seriously compromise his chances in 2 tournaments bigger than ONOG.
Even for Stephano 750$+ means something, so if he decided to forfeit, there is probably an actual reason. If he estimate he has no chance of winning because he is too tired, forfeiting is probably the best decision for him.
You can argue that it's not jsut a competition it's also a show, and that even if forfeiting the competition makes sense, he shoud have nonetheless keep playing for the show. That's fair enough, but I think it depends on the fans. Personnaly I'm not interested in games void of sense because a player is too tired to play.
Stephano had a shedule problem, that's it.
Yeah, maybe he should not have entered this 4 tournaments, he should have anticipated the possibility to be at least in the semi finals for all of them. B
But on the other hand, maybe ONOG should not invite europeans players if they want to start a tournament past 11pm CET with pool play, followed by 2bo5 and 1 bo7. Just get real, you really want players to play after 4am ??
That being said, I like ONOG decision to disqualified Stephano. But this could really have been avoided. (forbidding players to enter 2 tournaments the same day, better choosing the invites, etc.)
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On January 31 2012 23:28 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote:On January 31 2012 22:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 22:28 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
Illusion is obviously 2nd because he played in the finals. Stephano didn't, so I don't know where you're getting your idea that he's 2nd?
See, there's two pespectives to this, one isn't more right than the other, so it was ONOGs decision. There are no two perspectives on it. Stephano is technically 2nd because he reached the finals and did give a default win to Kas. Illusion LOST to Stephano in a single elimination tournament so the best he could reach at that point is 3rd place. If you or any other person in the world don't want to understand it or simply ignore it, please do but don't tell me that Illusion actually deserved or got 2nd place, because its not true. ONOG decided to change the tournament format after Stephano did forfeit and only PUNISHED Stephano for that in the heat of the battle if you ask me. To the person who asked me if I wanted to happen stuff like this again and if I think Stephano should be punished. No I don't want this to happen again thats why I said you need contracts between players and tournament hosts and a punishment would be to just do not invite him again, but as I already said as well, I do think the tournament would hurt themselves as Stephano is a good player and pulls lots of viewers. As Arew said in another thread, ONOG is simply stealing money from Stephano at this point. Either disqualify him and make it clear OR give him his deserved 2nd place IMO. To Jibba: In ANY sports an athlete an forfeit at any point if he thinks he's incapable of completing the task or cannot finish the match. If a national soccer team cannot continue due to exhaustion they will forfeit the match. Obviously they will try but its a far bigger stage and usually its not 1v1 but teamgames. In boxing / fighting if you don't feel in good condition you forfeit or postpone. Stephano offered to postpone / reschedule and that wasn't possible so he did forfeit. How often have you seen boxing matches been rescheduled, just because one of the fighters wasn't fit at that point. It happened before. Technical k.O? Same story. The boxer wants to fight, but he cannot so he 'has' to or will be forced to forfeit. Stephano probably wanted to play, but he was tired so he couldn't really play. No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me. Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money. But he is not paid by the tournament or the viewers. He is paid by his team and you have no idea what he is paid for. How do you know he is paid for entertaining viewers. Maybe they just pay him to quickly make some money on SC2 bubble and then move on (see someone else's post about goals of Millenium). And since he did not break tournament rules, taking his prizemoney is incorrect decision. If tournament had rules against forfeits then it would be ok.
I am baffled that people are defending blatant unprofessionalism. It's sickening, because, as I said before, these same people will go into a thread and preach about how Starcraft 2 is a sport and how they want it to be big in our culture.
This kind of shit should not be allowed. They should take responsibility. Simple as.
They are professionals.
Act like it.
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On January 31 2012 23:27 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play. Meanwhile in the real world people do what Stephano did all the time. In cross-country skiing and track and field people sign up for multiple races/distances/events and if they're in top form they might participate in them all. More often than not they withdraw from one or two races, not because of injury but due to feeling tired and to reserve strength.
same thing in Tennis yep
baseball?? lol... chewing tabacco and being fat is not important at all to me xD
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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2012 23:27 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play. Meanwhile in the real world people do what Stephano did all the time. In cross-country skiing and track and field people sign up for multiple races/distances/events and if they're in top form they might participate in them all. More often than not they withdraw from one or two races, not because of injury but due to feeling tired and to reserve strength. But I guess Northug is no champion : /
It's a completely different format. He didn't decline the invitational, he only declined the finals. The only situation that's remotely close for racing would be... Tour de France, maybe? You're tired so you don't do the last race. Are you ever going to see a points leader do that in a million years?
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On January 31 2012 23:29 Elean wrote:
I understand Stephano's decision, and seriously this does not deserve so much drama.
Today, Stephano has to play EOSL and the MSI pro cup. In both tournament he has reached the semi finals.
Playing a BO7 against terran at 3 a.m. while being already exhausted from having played tournaments all day, would have seriously compromise his chances in 2 tournaments bigger than ONOG.
Even for Stephano 750$+ means something, so if he decided to forfeit, there is probably an actual reason. If he estimate he has no chance of winning because he is too tired, forfeiting is probably the best decision for him.
You can argue that it's not jsut a competition it's also a show, and that even if forfeiting the competition makes sense, he shoud have nonetheless keep playing for the show. That's fair enough, but I think it depends on the fans. Personnaly I'm not interested in games void of sense because a player is too tired to play.
Stephano had a shedule problem, that's it.
Yeah, maybe he should not have entered this 4 tournaments, he should have anticipated the possibility to be at least in the semi finals for all of them. B
But on the other hand, maybe ONOG should not invite europeans players if they want to start a tournament past 11pm CET with pool play, followed by 2bo5 and 1 bo7. Just get real, you really want players to play after 4am ??
I agree with everything except that the problem was an EU player playing in a NA tournament (kas did fine). However, I do think ONOG will also be less lenient towards players wanting a break b/c of other tournaments.
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On January 31 2012 23:15 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote:
Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in.
I do not care about them, because they had all the tools to solve the situation beforehand by having the proper rules and contracts in place or even when shit hit the fan, by a myriad of ways like the already proposed showmatch or similar. Instead they created drama for crazy part of SC2 community to feed on, where instead they could have shown some profesionality themselves and create a nice showmatch coverup that would be definitely better for the image presented to sponsors.
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On January 31 2012 23:27 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play. Meanwhile in the real world people do what Stephano did all the time. In cross-country skiing and track and field people sign up for multiple races/distances/events and if they're in top form they might participate in them all. More often than not they withdraw from one or two races, not because of injury but due to feeling tired and to reserve strength. But I guess Northug is no champion : /
Good point ^^. Lets add that Germany has withdraw its players from the FIS Cross-Country Rybinsk competition (held on 4th February this year) cause they think it will be too cold....
Welcome to the world of professional athletes
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On January 31 2012 23:30 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:27 Longshank wrote:On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play. Meanwhile in the real world people do what Stephano did all the time. In cross-country skiing and track and field people sign up for multiple races/distances/events and if they're in top form they might participate in them all. More often than not they withdraw from one or two races, not because of injury but due to feeling tired and to reserve strength. But I guess Northug is no champion : / It's a completely different format. He didn't decline the invitational, he only declined the finals. The only situation that's remotely close for racing would be... Tour de France, maybe? You're tired so you don't do the last race.
Hum yeah, pretty good choice. I remember a time when sprinters used to forfeit the race when mountain's steps where starting, because they where paid for their wins in plains, if they finish the race or not.
Rules changed, and it's better know i think.
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On January 31 2012 23:30 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:27 Longshank wrote:On January 31 2012 22:59 MrBitter wrote:On January 31 2012 22:53 Frankon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. You have watched too much Rocky (or any bulshit sport movie)... No player that has a working brain would want to get back to the game when he is injured cause the said action could worsen his state - which could result in the club dropping his contract. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062937He could barely limp around the bases, but champions always want to play. Meanwhile in the real world people do what Stephano did all the time. In cross-country skiing and track and field people sign up for multiple races/distances/events and if they're in top form they might participate in them all. More often than not they withdraw from one or two races, not because of injury but due to feeling tired and to reserve strength. But I guess Northug is no champion : / It's a completely different format. He didn't decline the invitational, he only declined the finals. The only situation that's remotely close for racing would be... Tour de France, maybe? You're tired so you don't do the last race.
Tour de Ski? Tons of people dropped off for the final day.
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On January 31 2012 23:20 shabinka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote:
Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. You should look at MLB playoff games. Specifically Red Sox - Yankees (2004).
Not that it would change much about my point, but from wiki it seems it ended at cca 12am.
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On January 31 2012 23:32 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:29 Elean wrote:
I understand Stephano's decision, and seriously this does not deserve so much drama.
Today, Stephano has to play EOSL and the MSI pro cup. In both tournament he has reached the semi finals.
Playing a BO7 against terran at 3 a.m. while being already exhausted from having played tournaments all day, would have seriously compromise his chances in 2 tournaments bigger than ONOG.
Even for Stephano 750$+ means something, so if he decided to forfeit, there is probably an actual reason. If he estimate he has no chance of winning because he is too tired, forfeiting is probably the best decision for him.
You can argue that it's not jsut a competition it's also a show, and that even if forfeiting the competition makes sense, he shoud have nonetheless keep playing for the show. That's fair enough, but I think it depends on the fans. Personnaly I'm not interested in games void of sense because a player is too tired to play.
Stephano had a shedule problem, that's it.
Yeah, maybe he should not have entered this 4 tournaments, he should have anticipated the possibility to be at least in the semi finals for all of them. B
But on the other hand, maybe ONOG should not invite europeans players if they want to start a tournament past 11pm CET with pool play, followed by 2bo5 and 1 bo7. Just get real, you really want players to play after 4am ??
I agree with everything except that the problem was an EU player playing in a NA tournament (kas did fine). However, I do think ONOG will also be less lenient towards players wanting a break b/c of other tournaments.
Inviting EU players in a NA tournament is fine, but it's just not smart to make it pool play + bo5 + bo5 +bo7.
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EPT
