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Active: 33876 users

We Must Fight For The Carrier - Page 88

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 86 87 88 89 90 94 Next
Phoenix2003
Profile Joined August 2012
126 Posts
September 14 2012 20:49 GMT
#1741
Congrats! Your work wasn't in vain, OP. This is was I'm talking about. Power to the people up in here!
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15547 Posts
September 14 2012 20:49 GMT
#1742
On September 15 2012 05:47 Zrana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2012 05:43 rd wrote:
On September 15 2012 04:54 Zrana wrote:
Gotta say i kinda disagree with this thread, i actually think blizz can do a better job than than a load of players. Look at the mothership; it was going to be removed at one point but the reddit-reading, mlg-watching bronze to gold leaguers loved it so much it stayed in the game, and now any lategame PvX is decided on a single vortex, instead of any strategic or clever play.

Apart from looks, what's actually interesting about the carrier? You just mass a bunch of them and win (or otherwise). The carrier and collosus are extremely similar in terms of function and how using them affects a match. It's simply, "Does my opponent have enough vikings/corruptors to beat my army?" If yes, game continues as if i'd never built carriers - if no, win. Such hard-counter based design is not interesting. Look at interesting units like siege tanks in tvz. They don't really have a unit that can be said to counter them, instead you beat them by engaging when they unsiege or flanking them or attacking elsewhere. The carrier in bw was countered by goliaths, but goliaths are ground units so there was still some depth to the interaction between carrier/goliath even after both units were on the field as the carriers could use terrain to their advantage.

In SC2, goliaths fly and are called Vikings. Now instead of a positional battle you get a counter-based battle. Carriers > Terran ground army > stalkers > vikings > carriers. This is not without depth and interest but it just leads to more deathball play.

Terran and zerg have a load of cool stuff that allows positional play or mobility/multi-pronged play. Protoss is still stuck with herp derp put my units in a big group and shove them across the map.


Your arguments earn no credence making highly opinionated, uneducated generalizations. Even further, I question how one makes the absolutely incorrect to statement that a Colossus and Carrier serve the same function when their functions are world's apart -- so much so that they're polar opposites in usage.




Really? How do the carrier and collosus really differ?
They are both big, high-tech units that are weak to anti-air and very strong vs ground. The difference is in how they attack. All it means is that marines are better vs unsupported carriers. Once you get to the lategame and storms are available, what does the carrier give you that the collosus doesn't?


Carriers are super strong against everything. Plop a carrier at a base and you can't be dropped. Same food as 3 zealots, but 100x more effective. Just because they die to hard-counter-AA doesn't mean they are bad against air. Carrier/Tempest/Void will be extremely strong. Especially with the new Oracle abilities.
ZeroClick
Profile Joined March 2012
Brazil63 Posts
September 14 2012 20:52 GMT
#1743
Congratulations, OP!
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
September 14 2012 20:52 GMT
#1744
Well done.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
wangstra
Profile Joined March 2011
922 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-14 20:54:19
September 14 2012 20:53 GMT
#1745
-nuked-
wangstra
Profile Joined March 2011
922 Posts
September 14 2012 20:54 GMT
#1746
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS



The Carrier indeed has arrived. And a big thank you to all the haters and folks who disparaged the Carrier. It only made this more sweet.
Zer atai
Profile Joined September 2011
United States691 Posts
September 14 2012 20:55 GMT
#1747
CARRIER HAS ARRIVED
Want to sport eSports? Disable adblock. P.S. En Taro Adun!!
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
September 14 2012 20:56 GMT
#1748
On September 15 2012 05:47 Zrana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2012 05:43 rd wrote:
On September 15 2012 04:54 Zrana wrote:
Gotta say i kinda disagree with this thread, i actually think blizz can do a better job than than a load of players. Look at the mothership; it was going to be removed at one point but the reddit-reading, mlg-watching bronze to gold leaguers loved it so much it stayed in the game, and now any lategame PvX is decided on a single vortex, instead of any strategic or clever play.

Apart from looks, what's actually interesting about the carrier? You just mass a bunch of them and win (or otherwise). The carrier and collosus are extremely similar in terms of function and how using them affects a match. It's simply, "Does my opponent have enough vikings/corruptors to beat my army?" If yes, game continues as if i'd never built carriers - if no, win. Such hard-counter based design is not interesting. Look at interesting units like siege tanks in tvz. They don't really have a unit that can be said to counter them, instead you beat them by engaging when they unsiege or flanking them or attacking elsewhere. The carrier in bw was countered by goliaths, but goliaths are ground units so there was still some depth to the interaction between carrier/goliath even after both units were on the field as the carriers could use terrain to their advantage.

In SC2, goliaths fly and are called Vikings. Now instead of a positional battle you get a counter-based battle. Carriers > Terran ground army > stalkers > vikings > carriers. This is not without depth and interest but it just leads to more deathball play.

Terran and zerg have a load of cool stuff that allows positional play or mobility/multi-pronged play. Protoss is still stuck with herp derp put my units in a big group and shove them across the map.


Your arguments earn no credence making highly opinionated, uneducated generalizations. Even further, I question how one makes the absolutely incorrect to statement that a Colossus and Carrier serve the same function when their functions are world's apart -- so much so that they're polar opposites in usage.




Really? How do the carrier and collosus really differ?
They are both big, high-tech units that are weak to anti-air and very strong vs ground. The difference is in how they attack. All it means is that marines are better vs unsupported carriers. Once you get to the lategame and storms are available, what does the carrier give you that the collosus doesn't?


I regarded their function as different. It's massively different. You already answered your own question by stating the synergy of storm and carriers -- storm, supplementing the lack of AoE colossus provide that make them infinitely more pivotal in a game reliant on AoE.
Adonminus
Profile Joined January 2012
Israel543 Posts
September 14 2012 20:57 GMT
#1749
Our fight wasn't in vain, Tassadar smiles upon us this day. As the Carrier is back!!!
NotSorry
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States6722 Posts
September 14 2012 20:57 GMT
#1750
Now we just gotta get them to replace the colossus with Reavers
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell
The Final Boss
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1839 Posts
September 14 2012 20:58 GMT
#1751
Maybe Blizzard isn't as incompetent as I thought they were. Respect.
ThirdDegree
Profile Joined February 2011
United States329 Posts
September 14 2012 20:58 GMT
#1752
On September 15 2012 05:49 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2012 05:47 Zrana wrote:
On September 15 2012 05:43 rd wrote:
On September 15 2012 04:54 Zrana wrote:
Gotta say i kinda disagree with this thread, i actually think blizz can do a better job than than a load of players. Look at the mothership; it was going to be removed at one point but the reddit-reading, mlg-watching bronze to gold leaguers loved it so much it stayed in the game, and now any lategame PvX is decided on a single vortex, instead of any strategic or clever play.

Apart from looks, what's actually interesting about the carrier? You just mass a bunch of them and win (or otherwise). The carrier and collosus are extremely similar in terms of function and how using them affects a match. It's simply, "Does my opponent have enough vikings/corruptors to beat my army?" If yes, game continues as if i'd never built carriers - if no, win. Such hard-counter based design is not interesting. Look at interesting units like siege tanks in tvz. They don't really have a unit that can be said to counter them, instead you beat them by engaging when they unsiege or flanking them or attacking elsewhere. The carrier in bw was countered by goliaths, but goliaths are ground units so there was still some depth to the interaction between carrier/goliath even after both units were on the field as the carriers could use terrain to their advantage.

In SC2, goliaths fly and are called Vikings. Now instead of a positional battle you get a counter-based battle. Carriers > Terran ground army > stalkers > vikings > carriers. This is not without depth and interest but it just leads to more deathball play.

Terran and zerg have a load of cool stuff that allows positional play or mobility/multi-pronged play. Protoss is still stuck with herp derp put my units in a big group and shove them across the map.


Your arguments earn no credence making highly opinionated, uneducated generalizations. Even further, I question how one makes the absolutely incorrect to statement that a Colossus and Carrier serve the same function when their functions are world's apart -- so much so that they're polar opposites in usage.




Really? How do the carrier and collosus really differ?
They are both big, high-tech units that are weak to anti-air and very strong vs ground. The difference is in how they attack. All it means is that marines are better vs unsupported carriers. Once you get to the lategame and storms are available, what does the carrier give you that the collosus doesn't?


Carriers are super strong against everything. Plop a carrier at a base and you can't be dropped. Same food as 3 zealots, but 100x more effective. Just because they die to hard-counter-AA doesn't mean they are bad against air. Carrier/Tempest/Void will be extremely strong. Especially with the new Oracle abilities.


He has a point, but I think it's not the right one. The colossus has actually be the biggest problem for sky-toss to actually be viable. The counter to colo is AA for both terran and zerg. They are going to make those units regardless, so they can blindly counter 2/3 of the tech paths for toss. It also makes tech switching useless since the counter is already there. If we had a unit like the reaver in place of the colo (not an avid bw fan, just an example) it would not force vikings or corruptors. That would allow air play to be much more useful. I'm hoping that at least for LotV, we lose the colo in favor of a non 'air' splash unit
I am terrible
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15547 Posts
September 14 2012 20:59 GMT
#1753
On September 15 2012 05:49 Phoenix2003 wrote:
Congrats! Your work wasn't in vain, OP. This is was I'm talking about. Power to the people up in here!


On September 15 2012 05:52 ZeroClick wrote:
Congratulations, OP!


Thanks!! I am still extremely psyched.

This is the best way to describe how I reacted when I heard the news:

[image loading]
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
September 14 2012 21:02 GMT
#1754
On September 15 2012 05:57 NotSorry wrote:
Now we just gotta get them to replace the colossus with Reavers

If only...
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 14 2012 21:04 GMT
#1755
Even as someoone who mech TvP's in WoL and oftentimes dies to carriers, I'm glad carriers are back.

Woo! :D
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Zrana
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom698 Posts
September 14 2012 21:08 GMT
#1756
On September 15 2012 05:56 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2012 05:47 Zrana wrote:
On September 15 2012 05:43 rd wrote:
On September 15 2012 04:54 Zrana wrote:
Gotta say i kinda disagree with this thread, i actually think blizz can do a better job than than a load of players. Look at the mothership; it was going to be removed at one point but the reddit-reading, mlg-watching bronze to gold leaguers loved it so much it stayed in the game, and now any lategame PvX is decided on a single vortex, instead of any strategic or clever play.

Apart from looks, what's actually interesting about the carrier? You just mass a bunch of them and win (or otherwise). The carrier and collosus are extremely similar in terms of function and how using them affects a match. It's simply, "Does my opponent have enough vikings/corruptors to beat my army?" If yes, game continues as if i'd never built carriers - if no, win. Such hard-counter based design is not interesting. Look at interesting units like siege tanks in tvz. They don't really have a unit that can be said to counter them, instead you beat them by engaging when they unsiege or flanking them or attacking elsewhere. The carrier in bw was countered by goliaths, but goliaths are ground units so there was still some depth to the interaction between carrier/goliath even after both units were on the field as the carriers could use terrain to their advantage.

In SC2, goliaths fly and are called Vikings. Now instead of a positional battle you get a counter-based battle. Carriers > Terran ground army > stalkers > vikings > carriers. This is not without depth and interest but it just leads to more deathball play.

Terran and zerg have a load of cool stuff that allows positional play or mobility/multi-pronged play. Protoss is still stuck with herp derp put my units in a big group and shove them across the map.


Your arguments earn no credence making highly opinionated, uneducated generalizations. Even further, I question how one makes the absolutely incorrect to statement that a Colossus and Carrier serve the same function when their functions are world's apart -- so much so that they're polar opposites in usage.




Really? How do the carrier and collosus really differ?
They are both big, high-tech units that are weak to anti-air and very strong vs ground. The difference is in how they attack. All it means is that marines are better vs unsupported carriers. Once you get to the lategame and storms are available, what does the carrier give you that the collosus doesn't?


I regarded their function as different. It's massively different. You already answered your own question by stating the synergy of storm and carriers -- storm, supplementing the lack of AoE colossus provide that make them infinitely more pivotal in a game reliant on AoE.


But how will the protoss gameplan change with the addition of carriers? If you look at zerg lategame options, the ultra and broodlord both have very different playstyles associated with them. The ultra favours mobility and aggression, the broodlord is a defensive, slowpushing unit. Now looking at the carrier and collosus options you still need gateway units and templar, you still want a mothership eventually, you're still worried about ghosts and you still want to move your army around in a big old ball of death.

I will admit that with carriers you can potentially (and eventually) replace every unit in your army with carriers and get an unbeatable army. However i cannot conceive how this can possibly be good for the game.

The Tempest at least provides the unique role of forcing an engagement and increasing your army's area of influence on the map.

I'm sorry if i came across as rude, but i'm willing to be wrong here. Could you maybe spell it out for me what exactly it is the carrier can do for protoss and how it makes the game better?
Garmer
Profile Joined October 2010
1286 Posts
September 14 2012 21:08 GMT
#1757
successful thread is successful
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
September 14 2012 21:13 GMT
#1758
MISSION COMPLETE!
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
Psychonian
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2322 Posts
September 14 2012 21:13 GMT
#1759
On September 15 2012 05:54 wangstra wrote:
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS



The Carrier indeed has arrived. And a big thank you to all the haters and folks who disparaged the Carrier. It only made this more sweet.


HAHHAHAHAH

Carrier has arrived! DAMN STRAIGHT!
Trans Rights
Cinquedea
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada144 Posts
September 14 2012 21:15 GMT
#1760
Carrier has (re)arrived
Too strange to live, too rare to die.
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