EPTaLive, "I want to resolve this issue" - Page 13
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By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill | ||
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justsayinbro
307 Posts
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Falconpauunch
Korea (South)59 Posts
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Exactly. They can't go the Evil Geniuses approach (i.e. how PuMa was signed) and directly approach the player without any prior knowledge or consent from the other team. That controversy was enough to convince EG to make their future player purchases seem a lot more ethical and competitive (such as how they emphasised that they approached Nazgul first about purchasing HuK. Fnatic has done an EG here. aLive's confession about this more or less proves it. But also, it's wierder that Coach Lee is checking through his players' skype conversations. After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it. But still, I knew that I had fault in this so I acknowledged those parts and I asked for his understanding and apologized. This confirms that:
Yup, Fnatic are at fault here. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
Also, if fnatic doesnt sign alive after this I will lose respect for them too lol. Pick this kid up after he went through all this. aLive fighting! | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo. If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe. It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change. | ||
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SoniStreet
Macedonia98 Posts
On January 19 2012 01:23 Pandemona wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ SPOILER TAG MAYBE FML t.t This kind of posts really piss me off, it's a STARCRAFT PROGAMING NEWS site, of course there will be news on tournament results. If you don't want to know the results then don't come before watching it sheeeesh. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:09 Clbull wrote: Exactly. They can't go the Evil Geniuses approach (i.e. how PuMa was signed) and directly approach the player without any prior knowledge or consent from the other team. That controversy was enough to convince EG to make their future player purchases seem a lot more ethical and competitive (such as how they emphasised that they approached Nazgul first about purchasing HuK. Fnatic has done an EG here. aLive's confession about this more or less proves it. But also, it's wierder that Coach Lee is checking through his players' skype conversations. Smixx posted something about the conversation in question you should probably read before you continue to post here. Something along the lines of "that conversation was completly informal between two friends". Yes alive was under contract, but as he said he was planning to "buy out" of his contract via the penalty fee. If he wants to do that there is nothing Coach Lee can do to stop him. The entire situation with alive wanting to leave when JYP etc. did, but decides to stay some more as a "sort of member" with Coach Lee's blessing makes the entire mess even more complicated... Frankly even if we knew all the details sorting this shit out would take a Judge and a barrel full of lawyers... imho none of them behaved properly. | ||
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Nicator
United Kingdom24 Posts
Regarding the chat logs, it seems that much of the discussion here is split along cultural lines. In europe there's a stronger tradition of workers' rights than in the US, and I think people from europe are more likely to find employers spying on private conversations abhorrent. I certainly do. | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts. Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's! Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it. | ||
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justsayinbro
307 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:11 Tula wrote: If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe. It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change. i thought the whole idea derived from the fact that you can't spy on things you own. how would ownership not make any difference? | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:14 Tula wrote: Smixx posted something about the conversation in question you should probably read before you continue to post here. Something along the lines of "that conversation was completly informal between two friends". Yes alive was under contract, but as he said he was planning to "buy out" of his contract via the penalty fee. If he wants to do that there is nothing Coach Lee can do to stop him. The entire situation with alive wanting to leave when JYP etc. did, but decides to stay some more as a "sort of member" with Coach Lee's blessing makes the entire mess even more complicated... Frankly even if we knew all the details sorting this shit out would take a Judge and a barrel full of lawyers... imho none of them behaved properly. It still raises the question of "How should we ethically approach purchasing other players?" because EG's appraoch towards PuMa brewed a fucktonne of controversy. Like I said, Fnatic or rather the translator are at fault here. Even if it was a "conversation between two friends", the translator should have acted more professional than "Hey, wanna ditch TSL and come to our team?" | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:14 Nicator wrote: It's a little stunning here how many people think it's somehow wrong to explore future employment opportunities before you quit your current position. I mean, isn't that completely standard pretty much all around the world? How many of us would quit our jobs before looking for the next one? Anyone? Regarding the chat logs, it seems that much of the discussion here is split along cultural lines. In europe there's a stronger tradition of workers' rights than in the US, and I think people from europe are more likely to find employers spying on private conversations abhorrent. I certainly do. Yeah. Even the outrage over the sequence seems a little odd. Wouldn't you want to first contact a player to ascertain whether or not he's interested in switching teams before proceeding further? | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo. I don't like all this talk of technicalities. If alive pays up the fee for breaking the contract early, he technically hasn't broken the contract because he paid up. Did he still do the wrong thing by signing a contract and not living up to his commitments? Sure, but he's followed the letter of the law. On the other hand, even if Mr Lee had legal grounds for spying on his players, that doesn't make spying something we should all be ok with. Basically, everyone who is in this thread picking sides is wrong. If Mr Lee has done nothing wrong because it's legally ok for him to spy on his players, you can't also say that alive is wrong for leaving his team while offering to pay the breach of contract fee. If you're siding with alive arguing that he's willing to pay up, you can't blame Mr Lee for spying, since it probably is legal. | ||
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Nicator
United Kingdom24 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:17 justsayinbro wrote: i thought the whole idea derived from the fact that you can't spy on things you own. how would ownership not make any difference? You own the hardware, not the conversations or the right to look at them. | ||
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Kiri
United States84 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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justsayinbro
307 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:18 Nicator wrote: You own the hardware, not the conversations or the right to look at them. no... i thought it was you own the hardware, you own anything that is stored. | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:17 Scribble wrote: Yeah. Even the outrage over the sequence seems a little odd. Wouldn't you want to first contact a player to ascertain whether or not he's interested in switching teams before proceeding further? I believe in an ideal world Fnatic's management goes to their translator who then goes to Coach Lee who then tells about the offer to aLive. I don't know how real that is. | ||
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Nicator
United Kingdom24 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:20 justsayinbro wrote: no... i thought it was you own the hardware, you own anything that is stored. Right, except you don't - at least in Europe and, apparently, Korea. In those areas workers have rights to privacy in respect to personal conversations. Put it this way: If you borrowed my computer to use gmail, would it be legal or right for me to run a keylogger to capture what you wrote? After all, I own the hardware. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:16 dsousa wrote: When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing. Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts. Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's! Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it. I think everyone's being too harsh on Coach Lee. He's undoubtedly concerned because TSL lost a lot of players last year due to both opposition towards his new direction or to player poaching, tried to change things around, and then as TSL's starting to improve again, BAM. Another player poached. Okay, apart from checking chat logs of one of his players, what has he really done that is dictatorish? Some players have complained about the practice regimen that has been set and have yearned for the prize money of foreign tournaments, hence they've been looking to the West for contracts. I haven't heard anything specific about Lee acting negligent and they should have known their practice schedule when they signed up on TSL's contract. He's angry because a team has approached one of his players with a cheque book ready without first contacting him, and understandably too. That is poaching no matter what you say about Coach Lee. Imagine if some filthy rich oil tycoon from either Russia or the Middle East had started a StarCraft II team, privately and secretly approached IdrA, DeMusliM, Ret, Stephano, Mvp, NesTea, MarineKing, MC, HerO, Jaedong, Bisu and Flash and convinced them to join his team, offering multi million pound salaries for each player, offering to pay in full for any contract breach penalties and purchasing a mansion in Seoul as a team house for them all to practice in. How do you think Evil Geniuses, TeamLiquid, Incredible Miracle, Prime, SK Gaming, KeSPA and all the Brood War teams will feel about this? | ||
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Ronski
Finland266 Posts
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