SPOILERS for GSL Ro32 Group G matches are in this interview!
aLive, "I want to resolve this issue" Though I acknowledge my faults, the article that was released was regrettable
aLive (now teamless) successfully advanced to the Round of 16 of Code S.
On the 18th, aLive got 2nd place in Hot6ix GSL Season 1's Code S Round of 32 in Group G. After defeating Brown in his first match, aLive lost to MarineKing in the winners match but was able to defeat Happy in the final match to qualify for the Round of 16.
How do you feel on making it to the Ro16 for CodeS?
Making it to the Ro16 is especially meaningful this time. Though this situation is difficult (t/n: TSL drama), because luck was on my side I was able to advance. I’m hoping that if my results are good, the outpour of negative attention I’m getting right now will change for the better.
You’re currently teamless. Was it particularly difficult in preparing for the matches today?
Saying that practice was hard would just be an excuse. But realistically speaking, it wasn’t easy. I did a lot of mental preparation for the games today. I played about 5 games on ladder per day, and additionally had some practice with other players I know.
Today an article related to your former team was released. What are your thoughts on that article?
It’s true that I acted incorrectly in the beginning. I definitely acknowledged it and Coach Lee also said he would understand. But he said he must definitely receive compensation. I contacted him on Sunday and he said he had told the reporters he had received the transfer fee and things had ended well and to not worry. That’s as far as I knew, but when I saw the article today on the day of my matches, I was really taken aback (t/n: referring to this). I think he was just saying through words that he understood, but didn’t mean it.
What exactly are the things that you think you did wrong?
The talks about a double contract is an exaggeration. I am not under contract yet. Last Sunday, I received an offer from a hyung that works as a Fnatic translator that said that they wanted me. I said I wanted to talk to the Fnatic manager on Monday, and I talked about more details with the translator hyung. After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it. But still, I knew that I had fault in this so I acknowledged those parts and I asked for his understanding and apologized.
What are the specific parts that you think you did wrong?
Getting in touch with Fnatic without first talking to Coach Lee was my wrongdoing. In terms of moving teams, my original plan was to leave TSL first, then in my teamless state join Fnatic. But Coach Lee found out earlier than I planned and was upset. So I acknowledged my fault to Coach Lee and I was ready to bear whatever came afterward. From the past, many TSL players have left, and at the time we did have contracts but they were just for show. Before PuMa hyung’s situation, there were no contracts. Coach Lee also said when Clide and JYP hyung left that if I was still unhappy, I could leave too. I was going to leave at that time but because of personal issues, I said I would stay in the team a bit longer, but just physically, not as an active teammate. I thought that Coach Lee had accepted it at the time but I guess that wasn’t the case.
So you’re saying that by the time you talked to the Fnatic manager, you had already made up your mind to leave?
When SangHo and Clide hyung left, JYP hyung and I also said we were going to leave. I thought it wouldn’t be good to stay any longer so I wanted to leave, and I also had a good offer.
How long was your contract with TSL supposed to last?
Until July of this year.
Despite that, what is the reason that you felt you needed to leave the team?
Other teammates left, and my image of the team was also not great. There was also a selfish aspect. I thought that the longer I stayed in TSL, it wouldn’t be of benefit to me. That’s why I made the decisive statement that I would leave the team.
But still, a contract requires mutual agreement from both sides. Was that part of the argument never discussed?
I found out Coach Lee went and talked to Fnatic first. Because he found out before I meant to tell him, I didn’t have a chance to talk about that. Before that, I had told Coach Lee that there was something I wanted to talk to him about. In that aspect, it’s true that I am at fault. I didn’t follow through with what the contract asked. I was being young and thoughtless. If people say that I was blinded by money, I wouldn’t be able to say otherwise.
Because this is still concerns a contract, talks of a fee of breach of contract can’t be avoided. Is there a clause concerning this in the contract?
There is. I think that’s why he means to get the penalty fee from me. I was under the idea that an article talking about how he would receive a transfer fee would be released, and even if I paid a penalty fee, he said let’s make sure we release positive articles about each other. But upon reading the article that was released today that talked about penalty fees and double contracts, I was really baffled.
Even then, it seems that you've currently left the team without permission. If you do have to pay a penalty fee, how much would that sum be?
I believe it is around 10,000,000 won.
Did Fnatic say they would pay for that penalty fee?
I’m not exactly sure but I believe they said they would announce the penalty fee as the transfer fee.
How are your contract talks with Fnatic going?
No matter how this situation progresses, it needs to end first before I can get a contract. That’s what I personally believe. We have made fair progress in discussions though.
A contract is still a contract though.
It’s because I didn’t think it was good to stay even after thinking about it a lot that I decided to leave. Even if I have to use my own money I said I would pay the fee for breach of contract. I was going to take care of it with my own money as well as the money Fnatic offered. But I was so surprised when talks of a double contract exploded first.
Let us know clearly what your plans are now.
Worst comes to worst, just as Coach Lee said in his article, I am thinking about taking this to the law. But if possible, I want to end this on as much of a good note as possible. Unfortunately the situation has already worsened so much. I just want to pay the penalty fee and get it over with.
Isn’t there a possibility that Fnatic won’t pick you up?
There is that chance. However, Fnatic was also a big part of this situation. I really hope it doesn’t pan out that way. It’s because I was sure Fnatic was going to take me as a player that I am enduring this situation right now.
Fnatic is a foreign team. Don’t you think there can be some issues with an interpretor working in the middle?
Of course I’ve thought of that. It’s also because of money that I left. However, even if that’s the case it can’t be helped. I’ll have to deal with it.
Is there anything else you want to say about this situation?
I definitely acknowledge that there were things I did wrong. However, the content of the article that was released today was really baffling. But still, I don’t want to end things on a bad note. I hope the fans won’t criticize me too harshly because of this. I hope they can look at me more favorably. Though my wrongdoing snowballed into this situation, I hope the fans can think about the perspectives of players and coaches as well.
Did you have time to think about your goals for this season/this year?
I didn’t really have time. This season, just like last season I want to be able to make it to the Ro8 quarterfinals. The most important thing right now is this current ordeal. I want to have it resolved as soon as possible. The group selections take place the day after tomorrow but before that I want to focus on this matter so it can be resolved first.
From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
Wooh I hope the situation doesn't worsen - all the best for both sides. aLive seemed pretty honest with his answers, I knew there had to be something fishy going on, glad he acknowledged it. Thanks for the translation Smix!
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
I agree 100%. Will be interesting to see what happens after this.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
Do you know korean laws in terms of employees digital rights ? In France, you can't access chat logs on employees' machines without warning them first in some sort of official documents. If korean have the same kind of laws, the fee will not be paid.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
TL really needs somekind of "like" or "upvote" button, but yes i agree
Although Coach Lee overreacted and went to the Korean press too early, isn't this the same situation with Puma, a foreign team contacted the player first before talking with management.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
On January 19 2012 01:32 Jackle wrote: Although Coach Lee overreacted and went to the Korean press too early, isn't this the same situation with Puma, a foreign team contacted the player first before talking with management.
Puma didn't have a contract.
Alive had a contract with a salary that ended in July.
On January 19 2012 01:32 Amestir wrote: So if I read this right TSL is basicly dead since Clyde and JYP left. I mean Alive was only on TSL for show for the past months.
You forget "He-who-shall-not-be-named" that is still in TSL: + Show Spoiler +
Foreign teams really know how to screw korean players over. management should always ask permission before talking to a player on another team regarding any possible move. Have some fucking class. Contracts or law technicalities can always be abused, bottom line is, the guy is on a fellow SC2 pro team. You do the competing in game, don't screw with other teams outside of it.
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
On January 19 2012 01:15 Smix wrote: Coach Lee also said when Clide and JYP hyung left that if I was still unhappy, I could leave too. I was going to leave at that time but because of personal issues, I said I would stay in the team a bit longer, but just physically, not as an active teammate. I thought that Coach Lee had accepted it at the time but I guess that wasn’t the case.
lol, if I'm interpreting the part I emphasized correctly, he thought he could basically be a leech and no one would mind? Stay there and not actually help the team?
aLive, you did pretty stupid thing. Why did you sign the paper that you don't like? Coach Lee, the skype thing is just messed up. Also, try not to publish things before you clear the mess. Fnatic and all other foreign teams, try to contact the team manager before you approach the players! I know your legal experts says there's a hole in korean team's contract, but try to respect. TSL and other Koreans teams, I know you are knew to these world, but make sure you fill up the holes in your contract. They are not your beloved mentees anymore. Now they know there are money out there. Finance yourself!
On January 19 2012 01:37 Pandemona wrote: So after reading it...AND GETTING SPOILT T.T
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
On January 19 2012 01:15 Smix wrote: Coach Lee also said when Clide and JYP hyung left that if I was still unhappy, I could leave too. I was going to leave at that time but because of personal issues, I said I would stay in the team a bit longer, but just physically, not as an active teammate. I thought that Coach Lee had accepted it at the time but I guess that wasn’t the case.
lol, if I'm interpreting the part I emphasized correctly, he thought he could basically be a leech and no one would mind? Stay there and not actually help the team?
There's probably something lost in translation. I'm guessing that he meant that he would stay in the team house/practice with TSL but not represent them in GSL/GSTL.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
On January 19 2012 01:35 Full.tilt wrote: Foreign teams really know how to screw korean players over. management should always ask permission before talking to a player on another team regarding any possible move. Have some fucking class. Contracts or law technicalities can always be abused, bottom line is, the guy is on a fellow SC2 pro team. You do the competing in game, don't screw with other teams outside of it.
Foreign teams are basically gutting Korean SC2 at this point. I am beginning to wonder how much longer it survives if things keep going the way they are going.
Some ppl forgett, thay many of them are still childs, and they never worked before, they sacrificed their teenage era in pro to starcraft, u cant expect them to make the right decisions all the time.
On January 19 2012 01:44 Detri wrote: lol keylogging a players computer? Or what ever he did to get the skype logs..
The only person coming out in a bad light due to this is Coach Lee, that's hella paranoid....
I just hope this doesn't screw up aLives career, he's an excellent terran and I enjoy watching his games.
Might as well been a teammate who did that and showed coach lee. There's really no evidence that can make us bash coach lee, cause we dont even know if he was the one to take them off his computer.
Is the coach allowed to read the chat logs of his players without permission? What if he was skyping with some girl he met at a bar a week ago... Stuff could get weird. Seems a little absurd he found out through the skype logs without Alive knowing about it.
On January 19 2012 01:37 Pandemona wrote: So after reading it...AND GETTING SPOILT T.T
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
Yes fair point i agree. But coach lee would not of known ANY of this, if he didnt "Hack" (i do use this lightly) aLive's skype and find the chat log as evidence that he was already in talks about another contract whilst being under contract. aLive then said i knew this was wrong but I (aLive) put my hands up and said ok, i will pay the transfer fee and i want to leave. Then they had gentlemans agreement (word of mouth) that they will say good things about eachother and it would be ok.
THEN Fnatic F*** up by denying it and casuing my stuff to annoy coach lee again (insert Puma drama) to cause even more pain for him and him to say "i've had enough" basically and to think i might aswell just sue them to teach a lesson.
but without ANY governing body (i.e FIFA UEFA etc) they have no decent way of dealing with transfers and no punishment for a player to do this sort of thing. example, if it went to court and either party wins all that will happen is.
aLive wins court case: aLive doesnt pay transfer fee, coach lee has to pay court fee's coach Lee wins court case: aLive pays transfer fee and court fee's maybe a little bit extra too.
That is not going to help either party much (apart from financially in the short term)
Governing bodys are the only thing needed to help fix this silly amateur transfer dealings that come up so often now the foreign scene has alot more money in SC
Well that explains some, i feel Alive rather selfish to pick money from a foreign team, it's not like he is going to get better training then with TSL so it's a money thing only. Coach Lee on finding stuff on a players computer sounds a bit weird to. Clearly the Fnatic translator also went way accross the line in poaching Alive from TSL.
In the end all seem at fault, best of luck to Alive, see you on a foreign team soon enough. Hurray for the new hype, let's all stack up on koreans ! o what most already do bleh.
You have to understand one thing about Koreans is that loyalty and honesty are of high value. They are also very much not confrontational and tend to avoid the subject if there are any uneasy feelings. That's pretty much the ONLY benefit of doubt I'd give to aLive, that the relationship between him and his coach reached to a point that he didn't feel like talking to him and he'd avoided it as much as possible.
On January 19 2012 01:37 Pandemona wrote: So after reading it...AND GETTING SPOILT T.T
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
Yes fair point i agree. But coach lee would not of known ANY of this, if he didnt "Hack" (i do use this lightly) aLive's skype and find the chat log as evidence that he was already in talks about another contract whilst being under contract. aLive then said i knew this was wrong but I (aLive) put my hands up and said ok, i will pay the transfer fee and i want to leave. Then they had gentlemans agreement (word of mouth) that they will say good things about eachother and it would be ok.
THEN Fnatic F*** up by denying it and casuing my stuff to annoy coach lee again (insert Puma drama) to cause even more pain for him and him to say "i've had enough" basically and to think i might aswell just sue them to teach a lesson.
but without ANY governing body (i.e FIFA UEFA etc) they have no decent way of dealing with transfers and no punishment for a player to do this sort of thing. example, if it went to court and either party wins all that will happen is.
aLive wins court case: aLive doesnt pay transfer fee, coach lee has to pay court fee's coach Lee wins court case: aLive pays transfer fee and court fee's maybe a little bit extra too.
That is not going to help either party much (apart from financially in the short term)
Governing bodys are the only thing needed to help fix this silly amateur transfer dealings that come up so often now the foreign scene has alot more money in SC
Fnatic didn't deny anything except the accusation they had already signed aLive to a contract... much like when PuMa left and Coach Lee accused EG of having PuMa under contract when they hadn't yet. Fnatic did NOTHING WRONG, they talked with a player who intended to leave his team anyway, they didn't contract him, they told him what they would offer.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
Are you serious? None of the blame lies on the coach who illegally recorded his player's every move, and then lied to the player about only releasing good press, only to slam him publicly days later? I am honestly shocked that anyone is blaming anyone except coach Lee in this situation.
While aLive handled incorrectly and should pay the fee, it's quite disturbing that his coach is snooping in his personal skype conversations. If it comes to court, I feel that should be the main issue.
lol at "hacking". In university they have plenty of programs where the admin can watch all of the other computer's screens. As these computers were team computers, they were networked and probably had remote-access apps already installed. This is like saying the cops shouldn't have access to their own security cameras.
Anyway, it does seem like something's wrong with Coach Lee and how he internally deals with his players. There's no other reason why so many of them are leaving. Alive also hasn't earned much. He's got ~$15k in winnings so far and the fine is $8.7k so I don't know what he's trying to do. Probably overestimates his worth.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
Are you serious? None of the blame lies on the coach who illegally recorded his player's every move, and then lied to the player about only releasing good press, only to slam him publicly days later? I am honestly shocked that anyone is blaming anyone except coach Lee in this situation.
Monitoring your employees computer activities isn't always illegal. Most companies do it.
It is illegal, at least in France. Admins don't have the right to look into folders marked "PERSONAL" on an employee's computer, and reading private chatlog is forbidden too. If it is on a work computer, it is for sure on their work/private computer since they live there, too.
Depends on the country I guess, but it is borderline illegal.
@ vnlegend you are overestimating the computer skill of these teams and gamers. I'm not even sure they have passwords on their PC lol. Some korean progamers barely know anything about their computer apart from playing sc. (I said SOME, don't think I'm talking about everybody) this kind of software, while easy to configure and install, is of near to no use when they are all in a single room....
It seems like all of the drama that comes out of TSL involves everything appearing to be okay between the player and coach and then the coach releases an extremely emotional statement that bashes all people involved. I can understand that Coach Lee is extremely upset about losing all of his players, but he really should try to look internally at why these players are leaving instead of blaming the leaching teams and the actual players.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
Are you serious? None of the blame lies on the coach who illegally recorded his player's every move, and then lied to the player about only releasing good press, only to slam him publicly days later? I am honestly shocked that anyone is blaming anyone except coach Lee in this situation.
Monitoring your employees computer activities isn't always illegal. Most companies do it.
I recall in a interview with Movie the CJ coach spot checking his players whether they are practising broodwar or surfing the net . Unlucky for Movie , Coach decided to pick him first and check his computer and found him not guilty . Well I can relate from this scenario , that coaches do have access to all player's computer and if they want to check it they can . Nothing is going to stop them from finding your so called "private stash of pleasure" .
On January 19 2012 01:59 vnlegend wrote: lol at "hacking". In university they have plenty of programs where the admin can watch all of the other computer's screens. As these computers were team computers, they were networked and probably had remote-access apps already installed. This is like saying the cops shouldn't have access to their own security cameras.
Anyway, it does seem like something's wrong with Coach Lee and how he internally deals with his players. There's no other reason why so many of them are leaving. Alive also hasn't earned much. He's got ~$15k in winnings so far and the fine is $8.7k so I don't know what he's trying to do. Probably overestimates his worth.
TSL doesn't have computers for the purposes of spying on their players, so your cops and cameras metaphor is stupid.
I agree there is something wrong with TSL, no other team is hemorrhaging great players like them.
I think a Code S terran is worth quite a bit, what other foreigner team has a code S player?
On January 19 2012 01:37 Pandemona wrote: So after reading it...AND GETTING SPOILT T.T
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
You know there's a reason there are clearly laid out penalties in most contracts. It's because sometimes circumstances come up that make it worth it to breach an already existing contract. Breaching a contract isn't immoral. Alive is ready and willing to pay the penalty, he's not looking to screw anyone over. If coach Lee thinks he is getting screwed, he should have made the penalty bigger. Maybe you should ask yourself what circumstances came up with TSL that Alive is willing to pay an 8700 dollar penalty just to get the hell out of TSL.
On January 19 2012 01:32 Jackle wrote: Although Coach Lee overreacted and went to the Korean press too early, isn't this the same situation with Puma, a foreign team contacted the player first before talking with management.
Except that this time there was a binding contract
I think it's lame Coach Lee got this all from chatlogs (however he aquired them) but that doesn't really change the fact that Fnatic, officially or not, was tossing out offers to players under contract without speaking to the teams about transfer/departure fee's. I'm really sick of foreign teams poaching Koreans, but at least do it right and up front. Sending your translator to be friends and hand out offers to people on a team causing them to incur fees is incredibly shady. I hope they don't back out and help alive pay the fees for breaking his contract with TSL.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
agree. but who fuckin believes that translator was doing things on his own accord ? Fnatic must have given him some kind of order to convince and guide aLive out of the house. Then when shit came to light fnatic is like lol we couldnt care less 'bout our translation having some "casual conversation". Thats not any illegal but shady as hell And about aLive, this kid needs to be educated by KeSPA about professionalism. Hey I dont like this team, I wanna leave. Well I would stay for a while, signing contract,getting money, getting prohouse training but fuck it Im not your teammate anyway. I leave asap when theres enough money on the line.gg
On January 19 2012 01:37 Pandemona wrote: So after reading it...AND GETTING SPOILT T.T
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
You know there's a reason there are clearly laid out penalties in most contracts. It's because sometimes circumstances come up that make it worth it to breach an already existing contract. Breaching a contract isn't immoral. Alive is ready and willing to pay the penalty, he's not looking to screw anyone over. If coach Lee thinks he is getting screwed, he should have made the penalty bigger. Maybe you should ask yourself what circumstances came up with TSL that Alive is willing to pay an 8700 dollar penalty just to get the hell out of TSL.
Because he is only physically there, he wants to find his soul. And his soul belongs to fnatic.
i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
I feel like somewhere along the line somebody shoulda cut this bit out of the interview. That seems like it'll do more harm than good being out in the open.'
Also, I'm going to try to reserve judgement this makes mereally wonder about Coach Lee.
On January 19 2012 01:47 DreamOen wrote: Some ppl forgett, thay many of them are still childs, and they never worked before, they sacrificed their teenage era in pro to starcraft, u cant expect them to make the right decisions all the time.
That's a pathetic excuse, you can't be both a child and a progamer. Professional teams (and TSL is in every sense a professional team) aren't babysitters. Don't join a team and don't sign the contract if you aren't willing to live up to it.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
Lol i didnt accuse him of hacking but in general "well how did he get that then" it comes under "hacking" kinda.
And re read your point back....
"even coach lee himself, stumbled acress the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on" hmm so you stumble across someones chat logs on skype xD find that hard to belive sir!
Anyway like someone from france said, in Europe its illegal to check on work members emails let alone skypes/msn's
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
It happens every time. It was Coach Lee's fault for not contracting Puma (guilty of the crime of naivety I suppose), then it was Coach Lee's fault for not paying Tester and FruitDealer (when he did) and now it's Coach Lee's fault for allegedly hacking computers.
Some people just really want him to be the bad guy for some reason
That's a huge penalty fee O_O Makes you wonder how decent Alive's salary is/was. The underlying issues here - the state of life in the TSL house - are what worry me. Unlike every other Korean team, Lee seems almost too focused on the business side of things. It really seems like he's putting money before quality of life for his players =(
I miss the old TSL which seemed so tight knit. Even after Cool & Tester left, Sangho/Alive/JYP/Clide worked to top the GSTL and represent the team that way. Now it seems that everything is falling apart, with Heart leaving and rumours of Polt going too =/
I imagine this will probably end with Fnatic signing aLive and covering a reduced penalty fee. Obviously charity pick-ups are never a way to run a team, but aLive truly is a top calibre player, and they could probably sign him for less than they would've originally after all this controversy. They'll come out looking like the good guys, and get a strong player out of it for less.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
It happens every time. It was Coach Lee's fault for not contracting Puma (guilty of the crime of naivety I suppose), then it was Coach Lee's fault for not paying Tester and FruitDealer (when he did) and now it's Coach Lee's fault for allegedly hacking computers.
Some people just really want him to be the bad guy for some reason
Yes because coaches digging through a players private communication is totally cool and acceptable.
It doesn't actually matter if he got it by simply sitting down and reading an a skype chat log (likely) or if he has mad hacking skills (unlikely), there's such a thing as privacy.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
agree. but who fuckin believes that translator was doing things on his own accord ? Fnatic must have given him some kind of order to convince and guide aLive out of the house. Then when shit came to light fnatic is like lol we couldnt care less 'bout our translation having some "casual conversation". Thats not any illegal but shady as hell
I was there that night, we were all just out talking casually and I witnessed this conversation. It was definitely not some shady offering, it really was as fnatic says a casual conversation that was in no way or shape or form an 'official offer', just casual talking between the translator and aLive, so please don't say things like this as it's definitely not true. I'm looking forward to aLive's personal statement as I'm sure it will shed even more light on this situation, because the interviewer was definitely biased;;
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
Movie's encounter with his coach checking his comp is already a good example what can A coach do if he really find's you suspicious of anything .
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
It happens every time. It was Coach Lee's fault for not contracting Puma (guilty of the crime of naivety I suppose), then it was Coach Lee's fault for not paying Tester and FruitDealer (when he did) and now it's Coach Lee's fault for allegedly hacking computers.
Some people just really want him to be the bad guy for some reason
Its easier to throw eggs on people you dont really care bout/know, coaches/managers/staff is underrated resource in sc2 still. We only care about poor innocent players and big figures.
I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
July of this year, therefore he is still under contract. Computers in the team house obviously belong to the team, think of it as a permanent PC bang. Don't want other people to see your shit? then delete it after.
Edit: I'm assuming the computer he used was in the team house.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
I think something important to note is that Coach Lee's statement, while not 100% accurate, is much closer to aLive's story than Fnatics.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
Contract ends in July
It is currently January
I don't really see what you're getting at here. A contract is still a contract whether it has a week left or 10 years left. Furthermore, It's not inconceivable that aLive left his Skype open on the computer in the training room (making it essentially Coach Lee's computer he's letting aLive borrow in the eyes of the law) and Coach Lee went to shut it down and this caught his eye.
I'm not saying that's what happened but from how it looks to me, Coach Lee would certainly have the upper hand in a lawsuit.
Well it seems once again that Coach Lee waited until after things seem smoothed out and then cried to the public anyway... and going through Alive's stuff to get the conversation log? Really? :-/
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
Because it's not July? lol. WTF is this post?
slytown thought it meant last July, for some reason
I'd like to hear Coach Lee's response to this before making any real judgements, but if the way he handled this is true, then it looks like he's being a little bit crazy.
Alive handling himself exceptionally well. Glad to see he didn't let it get to him too much, and still managed to make it to the R016.
On January 19 2012 01:44 Detri wrote: lol keylogging a players computer? Or what ever he did to get the skype logs..
The only person coming out in a bad light due to this is Coach Lee, that's hella paranoid....
I just hope this doesn't screw up aLives career, he's an excellent terran and I enjoy watching his games.
I beg to differ on this point. This situation makes aLive look extremely unprofessional and underhanded in the way in which he tried to engineer a way out of his current contract with his team so that he could switch to another team. It seems that aLive really should have been more open about his intentions with Coach Lee (who isn't blameless either). If he was going to talk to Fnatic (through whatever medium) he should have been open with the coach so that he doesn't get found out in a situation like this and left with essential no leg(s) to stand on.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
It happens every time. It was Coach Lee's fault for not contracting Puma (guilty of the crime of naivety I suppose), then it was Coach Lee's fault for not paying Tester and FruitDealer (when he did) and now it's Coach Lee's fault for allegedly hacking computers.
Some people just really want him to be the bad guy for some reason
Yes because coaches digging through a players private communication is totally cool and acceptable.
It doesn't actually matter if he got it by simply sitting down and reading an a skype chat log (likely) or if he has mad hacking skills (unlikely), there's such a thing as privacy.
But you have absolutely no idea how he obtained the logs or under what circumstances he did, neither does alive, who in the interview leads us to believe they were taken from his computer because they were logged there, but doesn't actually know. If the player in question won't directly levy the accusation what right do we have to? It's the same shit that happened last time with FD & Tester. Just wait for the facts. Maybe he approached Fnatic's translator and he got the logs from him?
On January 19 2012 02:25 VirgilSC2 wrote: I think something important to note is that Coach Lee's statement, while not 100% accurate, is much closer to aLive's story than Fnatics.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
Contract ends in July
It is currently January
I don't really see what you're getting at here. A contract is still a contract whether it has a week left or 10 years left. Furthermore, It's not inconceivable that aLive left his Skype open on the computer in the training room (making it essentially Coach Lee's computer he's letting aLive borrow in the eyes of the law) and Coach Lee went to shut it down and this caught his eye.
I'm not saying that's what happened but from how it looks to me, Coach Lee would certainly have the upper hand in a lawsuit.
Let's wait until we here aLive's side of the story from aLive himself, kk? If he's not satisfied with this interview and wants to put out his own statement, then taking this interview as gospel isn't so accurate. There's quite a bit more first-hand evidence to support Fnatic's side of the story than Coach Lee's. They seem to be the least involved party in all of this. I think it's pretty obvious that the miscommunication is primarily between aLive and Coach Lee.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
It happens every time. It was Coach Lee's fault for not contracting Puma (guilty of the crime of naivety I suppose), then it was Coach Lee's fault for not paying Tester and FruitDealer (when he did) and now it's Coach Lee's fault for allegedly hacking computers.
Some people just really want him to be the bad guy for some reason
Yes because coaches digging through a players private communication is totally cool and acceptable.
It doesn't actually matter if he got it by simply sitting down and reading an a skype chat log (likely) or if he has mad hacking skills (unlikely), there's such a thing as privacy.
But you have absolutely no idea how he obtained the logs or under what circumstances he did, neither does alive, who in the interview leads us to believe they were taken from his computer because they were logged there, but doesn't actually know. If the player in question won't directly levy the accusation what right do we have to? It's the same shit that happened last time with FD & Tester. Just wait for the facts. Maybe he approached Fnatic's translator and he got the logs from him?
<This is a hypothetical> With regard to Coach Lee obtaining the logs, it's entirely possible that given that the computers are likely to be TSL's property there might be a clause in the TSL player contracts which states that the computers should be treated as such and the Coach/Manager has access to the computer's contents much like a work/school PC is.
Fanatic and alive at most of the fault here. Looks like fanatic tried to distance themselves by saying it was the translator etc. Either way alive and fanatic handled it terribly. I feel bad for the players in a lot of these instances, Koreans going to foreign teams is a delicate thing and they should have a ton of guidance from said foreigner team. Seems like this was lacking.
After seeing the posts made by TL mods with regards to this who drama, its pretty shameful what you folks represent TL on the forums. You're supposed to throw down the banhammer on folks who basically badmouth any player/team/coach/forum member esp since they (all of us, basically) do NOT have full knowledge of the situation or incident.
State facts/official statements made by the people related to this matter. Don't join in and add to the fire by saying who's do you think is right or wrong. Esp with so many people badmouthing Coach Lee or fnatic or aLive or even fnatic's translator.
On January 19 2012 02:25 VirgilSC2 wrote: I think something important to note is that Coach Lee's statement, while not 100% accurate, is much closer to aLive's story than Fnatics.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
Contract ends in July
It is currently January
I don't really see what you're getting at here. A contract is still a contract whether it has a week left or 10 years left. Furthermore, It's not inconceivable that aLive left his Skype open on the computer in the training room (making it essentially Coach Lee's computer he's letting aLive borrow in the eyes of the law) and Coach Lee went to shut it down and this caught his eye.
I'm not saying that's what happened but from how it looks to me, Coach Lee would certainly have the upper hand in a lawsuit.
Let's wait until we here aLive's side of the story from aLive himself, kk? If he's not satisfied with this interview and wants to put out his own statement, then taking this interview as gospel isn't so accurate. There's quite a bit more first-hand evidence to support Fnatic's side of the story than Coach Lee's. They seem to be the least involved party in all of this. I think it's pretty obvious that the miscommunication is primarily between aLive and Coach Lee.
I disagree with Fnatic being the least involved party. If aLive says he's sure fnatic were going to sign him they're at least an equal party to all this surely?
On January 19 2012 02:25 VirgilSC2 wrote: I think something important to note is that Coach Lee's statement, while not 100% accurate, is much closer to aLive's story than Fnatics.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
Contract ends in July
It is currently January
I don't really see what you're getting at here. A contract is still a contract whether it has a week left or 10 years left. Furthermore, It's not inconceivable that aLive left his Skype open on the computer in the training room (making it essentially Coach Lee's computer he's letting aLive borrow in the eyes of the law) and Coach Lee went to shut it down and this caught his eye.
I'm not saying that's what happened but from how it looks to me, Coach Lee would certainly have the upper hand in a lawsuit.
Let's wait until we here aLive's side of the story from aLive himself, kk? If he's not satisfied with this interview and wants to put out his own statement, then taking this interview as gospel isn't so accurate. There's quite a bit more first-hand evidence to support Fnatic's side of the story than Coach Lee's. They seem to be the least involved party in all of this. I think it's pretty obvious that the miscommunication is primarily between aLive and Coach Lee.
I disagree with Fnatic being the least involved party. If aLive says he's sure fnatic were going to sign him they're at least an equal party to all this surely?
I think I'm with you on this one. His statements did seem to indicate that the move to Fnatic was extremely likely given that he was very confident that at least some of it not all of the penalty fee would be absorbed by Fnatic in the financial restitution/compensation between aLive/TSL.
On January 19 2012 02:35 hyperwhiteknight wrote: After seeing the posts made by TL mods with regards to this who drama, its pretty shameful what you folks represent TL on the forums. You're supposed to throw down the banhammer on folks who basically badmouth any player/team/coach/forum member esp since they (all of us, basically) do NOT have full knowledge of the situation or incident.
State facts/official statements made by the people related to this matter. Don't join in and add to the fire by saying who's do you think is right or wrong. Esp with so many people badmouthing Coach Lee or fnatic or aLive or even fnatic's translator.
So much for being sc2's unbiased news website. gg
Individual opinions of staff members are only individual opinions and have nothing to do with the site at large. We can't ban people for discussing or taking sides on this issue. Criticism is allowed on TL. We can ban or warn people for being grossly misinformed or for making unfounded personal attacks. There's a fine line between what's acceptable and what's not, but at a minimum, people should be able to discuss this, and so should staff. (We're fans too)
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
On January 19 2012 02:37 Dandel Ion wrote: Coach Lee is reading the Chatlogs of his players? LOL Ever heard of privacy?
No matter what alive did wrong etc, just for that I'm 100% behind him. Wouldn't want to stay with ppl that spy on me...
If he left it there for all to see then it's his fault. If there's a clause in the TSL contract stating that the PC is TSL's property and it is open to inspection by the coach/manager then he's got nowhere to hide. If there's a team rule stating something similar, ditto. There are a lot of situations where the chat logs could have been obtained without Lee appearing to be a creeper. Besides, if you're using Team/Company equipment you really should be a little more careful/circumspect about what you're doing on it. I mean, discussing a potential move away from the team you're contracted to on their hardware isn't the smartest move. And siding with someone irregardless of how illegal/shady their decision making was seems to be pretty silly.
On January 19 2012 02:25 VirgilSC2 wrote: I think something important to note is that Coach Lee's statement, while not 100% accurate, is much closer to aLive's story than Fnatics.
On January 19 2012 02:20 slytown wrote: I'm losing respect for Coach Lee. Also, if Alive's contract was up in July, how does Coach Lee have a case, let alone after infiltrating his computer? If this becomes a legal issue, I'm sure Alive would win.
Contract ends in July
It is currently January
I don't really see what you're getting at here. A contract is still a contract whether it has a week left or 10 years left. Furthermore, It's not inconceivable that aLive left his Skype open on the computer in the training room (making it essentially Coach Lee's computer he's letting aLive borrow in the eyes of the law) and Coach Lee went to shut it down and this caught his eye.
I'm not saying that's what happened but from how it looks to me, Coach Lee would certainly have the upper hand in a lawsuit.
Let's wait until we here aLive's side of the story from aLive himself, kk? If he's not satisfied with this interview and wants to put out his own statement, then taking this interview as gospel isn't so accurate. There's quite a bit more first-hand evidence to support Fnatic's side of the story than Coach Lee's. They seem to be the least involved party in all of this. I think it's pretty obvious that the miscommunication is primarily between aLive and Coach Lee.
I think the miscommunication is rather between aLive and fnatic, at least if we take this interview in consideration.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
I would be interested in how much time has passed when Alive and the translator were chatting and when coach Lee ordered Alive to his office. I mean, it could be that Alive and the translator were trying to avoid coach Lee, or it could be that Alive and the translator were just late with talking to coach Lee, or it could be that coach Lee gave them no time to approach him.
To those who talks about privacy, LOL, you can't expect privacy to be maintained when your conducting your personal activities on a computer OWNED BY THE COMPANY.
Its like your surfing porn, and your boss busted you, but you say its an infringement on your privacy anyways. Dosen't make sense.
Keep personal stuff away from your computers at work. If your personal stuff gets accessed, its no one's fault but your own.
Of course, alive lives in the team house so he only has that computer to process all his personal stuff. But TSL owns the computers, so technically, its not an infringement on rights.
On January 19 2012 01:23 Pandemona wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
SPOILER TAG MAYBE
FML t.t
If you come into a discussion about a player, then you can most likely expect mentions of his recent performances, I don't understand how you don't get this...
On January 19 2012 02:42 poorcloud wrote: To those who talks about privacy, LOL, you can't expect privacy to be maintained when your conducting your personal activities on a computer OWNED BY THE COMPANY.
Its like your surfing porn, and your boss busted you, but you say its an infringement on your privacy anyways. Dosen't make sense.
Keep personal stuff away from your computers at work. If your personal stuff gets accessed, its no one's fault but your own.
Of course, alive lives in the team house so he only has that computer to process all his personal stuff. But TSL owns the computers, so technically, its not an infringement on rights.
+1. Especially when you're sitting in a training house full of your team mates who sit behind/next to you. There's every chance that one of them spotted this going on. We're all speaking in hypothetical situations though.
Pretty cut and dry case here. Assuming all this information is accurate.
Alive is wrong, acted wrong, did wrong.
Coach Lee responded wrong, acted wrong, did wrong.
Unfortunally, i'd say most of the fault is on Alive. He pretty much backstabbed his team and his coach. I honestly can't blame Coach Lee for being upset. However, He didn't act professionaly at all.
As far as how he got on Alives computer, this is probably a weird subject. I imagine that Alive plays in a team house correct? Don't all the computers belong to TSL team anyways. So they aren't really Alives computers, but team computers owned by TSL team. I'd imagine that the Manager of TSL has just as much right's to those computers as the players.
This was posted on Fnatic website, "Furthermore aLive never decided to leave TSL for Fnatic he left the team house out of his own personal reasons with Coach Lee and those are not related to us, neither do we have any interest in knowing the reasons. "
On January 19 2012 02:37 Dandel Ion wrote: Coach Lee is reading the Chatlogs of his players? LOL Ever heard of privacy?
No matter what alive did wrong etc, just for that I'm 100% behind him. Wouldn't want to stay with ppl that spy on me...
If he left it there for all to see then it's his fault. If there's a clause in the TSL contract stating that the PC is TSL's property and it is open to inspection by the coach/manager then he's got nowhere to hide. If there's a team rule stating something similar, ditto. There are a lot of situations where the chat logs could have been obtained without Lee appearing to be a creeper. Besides, if you're using Team/Company equipment you really should be a little more careful/circumspect about what you're doing on it. I mean, discussing a potential move away from the team you're contracted to on their hardware isn't the smartest move. And siding with someone irregardless of how illegal/shady their decision making was seems to be pretty silly.
Alive lived in the teamhouse. I don't do personal stuff at work because I can just go home and do it there. For him, it's probably a bit harder. If the contract says Lee can look at anything on the team's PCs, then I would bring my own. And question what kind of person would write that in a contract. If he left the conversation open Lee still shouldn't read it. Because it's wrong. Like, morally. If you understand that concept...
On January 19 2012 02:41 Chill wrote: This seems like the smallest deal in the world.
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
Oh, fnatic didn't even announce they signed him? LOL then what is this thread? They casually talked to him and said they would contract him if he got out of his existing contract? Right, that's how business works.
On January 19 2012 02:46 Coated wrote: Unfortunally, i'd say most of the fault is on Alive. He pretty much backstabbed his team and his coach. I honestly can't blame Coach Lee for being upset. However, He didn't act professionaly at all.
How did he backstab his coach? He signed a contract and chose to exercise the pay-out clause. Seems like zero fault to me.
Personal conversation are hardly legal proof material. At least, I think it is going to be very hard for coach Lee to prove his point is he goes to court. Please tell me if I'm wrong as this conception might be biased by my knowledge of European laws. I'm not sure how things are in korea although I know quite a bit about asian culture and understand things could be drastically different.
I don't think people want to see the bad guy in Coach Lee but repeated drama like this can't be badluck. I understant he has a lot of credit from coaching in BW days but his management is questionable. After the earlier problems with Puma, trickster and FD, he changed many things to avoid those situations and still all his up and coming players leave sooner of later.
Coach lee looks like he is amazing at making young talented gamers beastly. But his team contracts, career management and PR simply awful.
On January 19 2012 02:41 Chill wrote: This seems like the smallest deal in the world.
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
You just don't get it, Chill. This is drama and drama is what the community loves most (see Stephano Mill/Complexity deal, TSL vs EG, Naniwa probe rush, HuK debacle).
It's especially juicy when the community can wildly speculate on who did what and it's even better if there's a possibility to accuse the affected people/teams of all kinds of shit.
On January 19 2012 02:41 Chill wrote: This seems like the smallest deal in the world.
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
You just don't get it, Chill. This is drama and drama is what the community loves most (see Stephano Mill/Complexity deal, TSL vs EG, Naniwa probe rush, HuK debacle).
It's especially juicy when the community can wildly speculate on who did what and it's even better if there's a possibility to accuse the affected people/teams of all kinds of shit.
Yea, I really, really don't get it. My head is exploding.
Mr. Lee seems like a lttle bitch. aLive nor fnatic are not at fault IMO. A deal was negotiate4d, Mr. Lee could smell something was up and he went snooping around to find out what it was.
On January 19 2012 01:24 pStar wrote: Coach Lee got a skype convo off his computer.
He could get in huge trouble for that. Like, court trouble.
not if the computer belonged to TSL. When you use company-provided equipment, don't be thinking "this is my computer" because it isn't. It belongs to the company, not you. Therefore they can do as they see fit.
On January 19 2012 02:41 Chill wrote: This seems like the smallest deal in the world.
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
You just don't get it, Chill. This is drama and drama is what the community loves most (see Stephano Mill/Complexity deal, TSL vs EG, Naniwa probe rush, HuK debacle).
It's especially juicy when the community can wildly speculate on who did what and it's even better if there's a possibility to accuse the affected people/teams of all kinds of shit.
Yea, I really, really don't get it. My head is exploding.
Ultimately it's because a bunch of people don't know how this stuff works and want it to work based off of how they "feel" it should work.
This has blown out to something way bigger then it needs to be.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
Lol i didnt accuse him of hacking but in general "well how did he get that then" it comes under "hacking" kinda.
And re read your point back....
"even coach lee himself, stumbled acress the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on" hmm so you stumble across someones chat logs on skype xD find that hard to belive sir!
Anyway like someone from france said, in Europe its illegal to check on work members emails let alone skypes/msn's
illegal in france does not make it illegal everywhere else in the world. Again - work computer - that's property of the company, not you.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
That is pretty much how I feel. After reading that, I cant see how anyone would want to play for him.
So basically the only issue I see is the issue where Alive jumped the gun a bit. He should have waited till he "bought out" his TSL contract (or waited until it expired in July), and only then should he have made an official decision with Fnatic. Not much to see here, is there?
To the people commenting about stealing info on computers...give me a break. If you are using a computer that is owned by your company (or your SC2 team), you accept the fact that data stored there does not belong to you, nor are your skype convos protected in any way. They're private if they're conducted on your own personal comp, which clearly isn't the case here. Do you guys seriously think the coach went off to Alives house, Matt Damon style, and hax'd into his computer for tehSkype_files?
do people believe coach lee sits there and just reads there skype convos as fetish? he likely had a good reason to through the effort of finding skype logs someone probably told him or he accidentally saw it.
Penalty fee is dumb. There should be no problem with Players talking to other teams It shoudl be players concious decision. but Contracts should be going through Proffessional mediums. It is not right to do it this way. Alive shouldn't be punished for just trying to leave and get a new team. If he had truly intended to tell his coach than its all good.
On January 19 2012 03:19 dnld12 wrote: Penalty fee is dumb. There should be no problem with Players talking to other teams It shoudl be players concious decision. but Contracts should be going through Proffessional mediums. It is not right to do it this way. Alive shouldn't be punished for just trying to leave and get a new team. If he had truly intended to tell his coach than its all good.
What the fuck? Do you even understand what a contract is? Your post is so contradictory, I have no idea what you were even trying to say. It doesn't matter if he intended to tell his coach or not, he broke the damn contract. Thats why fees exist for a reason.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
Lol i didnt accuse him of hacking but in general "well how did he get that then" it comes under "hacking" kinda.
And re read your point back....
"even coach lee himself, stumbled acress the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on" hmm so you stumble across someones chat logs on skype xD find that hard to belive sir!
Anyway like someone from france said, in Europe its illegal to check on work members emails let alone skypes/msn's
illegal in france does not make it illegal everywhere else in the world. Again - work computer - that's property of the company, not you.
Work computer that's property of the company, not you. Personal informations such as skype conversations, email, that's your property, not your company's.
If you write a personal email at work, you are making a wrong use of the company property, and if you get caught doing so, you can get in trouble. But that doesn't mean that the content of your conversation belongs to the company or can be used against you.
What exactly are the things that you think you did wrong?
The talks about a double contract is an exaggeration. I am not under contract yet. Last Sunday, I received an offer from a hyung that works as a Fnatic translator that said that they wanted me. I said I wanted to talk to the Fnatic manager on Monday, and I talked about more details with the translator hyung. After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it. But still, I knew that I had fault in this so I acknowledged those parts and I asked for his understanding and apologized.
Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
On January 19 2012 01:25 TheSilverfox wrote: Wow, Alive pretty much confirms the things he did wrong about this as well as Fnatic.
The penalty fee is no small sum as well, it's 8760 USD. For many Korean SC2 player that is a lot of money to pay.
That's a lot for anyone to pay, let alone an underpaid progamer. I assume Fnatic will pay it but who knows, this whole situation changes every 30 minutes.
On January 19 2012 02:41 Chill wrote: This seems like the smallest deal in the world.
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
Chill, as always you bring rationality to the table. I said a similar thing in the other thread, people get head hunted or decide to leave and start interviewing while they are still under contract all the time. There is nothing wrong with talking to someone else about a job, nothing wrong with signing a letter of intent or job offer, you only breach your contract by signing another contract etc.
On January 19 2012 03:23 Aela wrote: omg spoiler in first question omg retards
This was a post-GSL interview, so it's only appropriate they ask that first. I put a red spoiler tag at the top of the OP to warn those who are about to read the interview.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
Talking to a contracted person isn't against a contract. Making plans for when your contract expires isn't against a contract.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
Talking to a contracted person isn't against a contract. Making plans for when your contract expires isn't against a contract.
According to this interview, his contract expires in July. As far as I can tell, Fnatic wasn't planning on waiting till July to sign Alive. They wanted him ASAP. The whole thing reeks of poor planning. They claim to not have known that Alive was contracted despite numerous explicit statements from Coach Lee that all of his players are on contract. Talking to plays who are contracted is, of course, not against the contract, but making verbal agreements to sign with them could constitute a verbal contract and therefore breach the original.
Personally Fnatic shouldn't be ALLOWED to sign Alive because of the shady tactics that went on. And alive would have to settle for whatever another team would offer him,both punishing him for his actions and not allowing Fnatic to get away with such shady dealings. This isn't the first time tho something needs to be done about underhand tactics such as player poaching or discussing team moves without the team coachs/managers being involved.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
Talking to a contracted person isn't against a contract. Making plans for when your contract expires isn't against a contract.
It's just that Lee is a big crybaby and wants everyone to have a drama
Feel sort of bad for aLive. I mean it seems as if he stayed in the TSL just for the sake of the team, and now he'll have to pay 10,000 000 won. I know you can't just break contracts but still...
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Coach Lee = shades of Kespa? Seems really irresponsible leaking anything he wants for his benefit when this could just have been solved by the clause in a contract.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. From here, it turns into two scenarios:
1) Fnatic is not actually respectful of contracts (worst case scenario) 2) Fnatic has a low standard of professionalism/a lack of protocol (best case)
I think aLive did a good job of handling it, really good interview. tbh I don't think he should feel sorry, it seemed he planned on paying for the fee for the team change anyways.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
Fnatic never announced shit. period. Coach Lee is the one who started blaming fnatic after alive left the team house.
How many deserting players does it take before the community realizes something fishy and stupid is going on behind the veil of korean manner within TSL, either with coach Lee directly or the team's contracts? It's obvious that mass numbers of players now have become completely disenfranchised with their situation at the TSL house, and none of them are telling the whole truth of what really transpired even after they leave. The TSL story has the stench of a straight up bully who still strikes enough fear (or "respect" if you STILL buy into official statements made about coach lee) in his ex-players that they would rather glossily manner over the details of their reasons for leaving than come out with the lucid criticisms that one would expect especially considering this pattern has repeated itself over and over.
hm, i really wonder what will happen to TSL, i feel like coach Lee has a good eye for talent, but he's no good at keeping it.
Also, i feel like this could start being a problem for alot of teams in korea. Western teams have (as i understand it) a great deal more money and the koreans probably want a piece of that money thats why they're so willing to leave teams
Just saying, you'd have to be a pretty bad coach for a player to be willing to pay 8k and get through all this public humiliation just to get rid of you.
Alive seems like a nice guy who got stuck with a bad contract and just wanting to get out of there.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. From here, it turns into two scenarios:
1) Fnatic is not actually respectful of contracts (worst case scenario) 2) Fnatic has a low standard of professionalism/a lack of protocol (best case)
Take your pick.
fnatic hasnt signed him though, and has made no announcement to that fact.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
Are you joking?
for someone getting so angry about the situation you could of atleast read the posts about the situation. coach is essentially pissed off because 2 friends, one of them Alive, one of them who happens to have a part time job translating for fnatic discussed Alives options, given that both he and coach lee KNEW alive wanted to look for a new team.
It seems like SC2 progamers are treating their sponsored teams like gositerran treated his clans in BW. There should really be some sort of rule in place to deny progamers leaving their teams before their contracts have expired...
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
Talking to a contracted person isn't against a contract. Making plans for when your contract expires isn't against a contract.
Of course not, but Teams like fanatic should start thinking what they are doing with those actions. They are killing the worth of player contracts. This is so short-sighted by fnatic, who seem to don't expect that any other team may do the same to them.
If contracts aren't worth anything anymore, where is the solid basement that teams are supposed to plan their lineup upon? We have several Team leagues starting in the near future. How can teams plan a strategy if they don't know if their star player will be with them until the next match?
This whole thing is really killing stability of esports as a team based sport. And fanatic are the ones to blame here at first.
On January 19 2012 03:08 FallDownMarigold wrote: So basically the only issue I see is the issue where Alive jumped the gun a bit. He should have waited till he "bought out" his TSL contract (or waited until it expired in July), and only then should he have made an official decision with Fnatic. Not much to see here, is there?
To the people commenting about stealing info on computers...give me a break. If you are using a computer that is owned by your company (or your SC2 team), you accept the fact that data stored there does not belong to you, nor are your skype convos protected in any way. They're private if they're conducted on your own personal comp, which clearly isn't the case here. Do you guys seriously think the coach went off to Alives house, Matt Damon style, and hax'd into his computer for tehSkype_files?
Yes you are right but is it included in the player contract that Coach Lee can invade Alive's privacy on the computer that he had his skype conversation? Also please don't forget that Korean progamer houses function both as a workplace and a home.
I wasn't aware of the leaps in logic people will go to justify obviously underhandedness from foreign teams. No point in discussing further. If you're unwilling to read between the lines, I guess a damage control press release is enough to convince you of anything.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
Isn’t there a possibility that Fnatic won’t pick you up?
There is that chance. However, Fnatic was also a big part of this situation. I really hope it doesn’t pan out that way. It’s because I was sure Fnatic was going to take me as a player that I am enduring this situation right now.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
Talking to a contracted person isn't against a contract. Making plans for when your contract expires isn't against a contract.
Of course not, but Teams like fanatic should start thinking what they are doing with those actions. They are killing the worth of player contracts. This is so short-sighted by fnatic, who seem to don't expect that any other team may do the same to them.
If contracts aren't worth anything anymore, where is the solid basement that teams are supposed to plan their lineup upon? We have several Team leagues starting in the near future. How can teams plan a strategy if they don't know if their star player will be with them until the next match?
This whole thing is really killing stability of esports as a team based sport. And fanatic are the ones to blame here at first.
no they arent, in every business like this teams will often resign a player before selling them, knowing that they cant charge a transfer fee if the player becomes a free agent. players who want to leave often agree to this because they have no hard feelings towards their old team.
this is nothing to do with the value of contracts or killing esports.
this seems to be more and more to be about the insular south korean (esports) business market waking up the the global world where people follow the rules but not the spirit, and they need to get used to it. they are happy to involve themselves internationally when we throw money at them, they need to grow up and take the responsibility that comes with that.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish.
He is awesome. Teams being all shady and stuff so a player has to come forward and tell us whats going on. A little light and commen sense in all the shady team affairs.
On January 19 2012 01:37 Pandemona wrote: So after reading it...AND GETTING SPOILT T.T
aLive....was talking to his mate from fnatic who said they have a deal for you when you leave TSL...WHICH was already on the cards. coach lee technically "Hacks" his skype prints off the chat log....tells aLive i want transfer fee and QQ fnatic. aLive is sorry and says he will pay the fee he just wants out. Coach lee QQs some more, fnatic lie about shit. coach lee gets pissed, aLive gets upset. Shit hits fan. aLive says this......
Next up court action xD
All because coach lee hacked skype.....or he would have 0 evidence. Of course aLive knowinly knew he would get contract from Fnatic but what is stopping him? He WAS in the middle of leaving TSL anyway? He was trying to do things right before people found out he had basically an open invite to join Fnatic.
Coach lee has done bad, Fnatic have done even worst, and poor aLive just wants out of TSL and to play sc2 t.t
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
I don't understand how it's illegal to discuss new contracts with other teams while still in another team? Does it state in his contract that he may not speak to anyone about what he's supposed to do when his contract runs out?
He wanted out of TSL, he talked to Fnatic to ensure he had somewhere to go. He then needed a way to get out of contract with TSL...he would either had to break contract (illegal) or ask to get let go. He had talked to Lee on multiple occasions about leaving and not wanting to be a team player. I'm still not clear on what happened. He "left" TSL. How can he leave a team he is contracted to stay on? Either they let him go (free of charge or not) or they enforce him to stay on.
Fnatic did absolutely NOTHING wrong. They're free to make offers to whomever they please. They did not break any laws.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
Talking to a contracted person isn't against a contract. Making plans for when your contract expires isn't against a contract.
Of course not, but Teams like fanatic should start thinking what they are doing with those actions. They are killing the worth of player contracts. This is so short-sighted by fnatic, who seem to don't expect that any other team may do the same to them.
If contracts aren't worth anything anymore, where is the solid basement that teams are supposed to plan their lineup upon? We have several Team leagues starting in the near future. How can teams plan a strategy if they don't know if their star player will be with them until the next match?
This whole thing is really killing stability of esports as a team based sport. And fanatic are the ones to blame here at first.
They stated that they didn't initiate any talks with Alive. It was Fnatic's translator and Alive talking in private. Fnatic statement: + Show Spoiler +
However, Fnatic replied through an official statement that Alive had not in fact joined their team, and that they would not have approached him as they knew he was under contract. Fnatic mentioned that while Alive had in fact left the TSL house, it was for reasons unrelated to Fnatic. They acknowledged talk of a move to Fnatic between Alive and Fnatic translator Brian Hyun Choi, but only as part of an informal conversation between friends.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
Huh? You mean the interview where he clearly states that there is a chance that he won't get signed by Fnatic?
After this and the Puma "event" I am starting to dislike coach Lee. If even half of what aLive is saying is true, coach Lee shows poor managment and people skills. If you have talented players, you have to keep them happy. If you know they are not happy, you need to be prepared for them to make plans to leave. If they break their contract, but are willing to pay the release fee, then suck it up. And to be very clear, no contract can force a player to play. It is a peice of paper that irons out the intent of both parties. It is binding, but only to a limit. If the player is unhappy enough, they just won't show up or will fight you every step of the way. You can seek relief from the courts, but even a judge knows that s/he cannot force something to do something. They normally tell both parties to go out in the hall and resolve the matter.
The part that bothers me most is the fact that coach Lee ran to the press even after it appeared the matter had resolved itself. If it is true, it is totally unprofessional and disrespectful. Every team has younger players who are going to make mistakes and not follow the terms of the contract to the letter. The coaches and managers need to understand this and help these players mature into the professionals that SC2 needs. They are going to mess up and teams need to accept this and work to resolve the matters privately, deal punishment if necessary and move on. It is no ones intrest to end up in legal gride lock over these issues.
I know one thing, if I was a foreign team, I would demand a confidentiality agreement from coach Lee before discussing signing one of his players. There is no need for the bad press he generates and I would want to have the option of legal action if he decided to run to the press.
No one of you have seen the contract. We don't even know if aLive broke any terms of the contract yet. Having a conversation about future prospects in a casual conversation with a member of a different team is not necessarily a contract breach. aLive didn't not even started contract negotiations with fnatic (correct me if i'm wrong). Did he intend to? Yes. And as he said he did this without talking to his coach. But we don't even know if he would have informed his coach in time because, through what seems as an illegal breach of privacy, his coach found out beforehand.
Right now we only know that aLive obviously made a moral mistake, because we neither know the exact terms of his contract regarding the actual events that happened (not would/could have happened) nor did the parties came to a legal conclusion yet. For his moral wrongdoings he appologised.
IMO all three parties acted unprofessional and were mostly concerned about their own reputation. This could have probably been prevented if the coach would have resolved the issue directly and only with aLive & fnatic
Coach Lee should make this penalty fee bigger in the future . Then players and other will think twice , about trying to pull a fast one over him . Even if that wasn't Fnatic or aLive's intentions they still did wrong and props to Coach Lee for catching them . Whenever he should have made it public or not it's his decision if he feels that he is being bamboozled and knows whats up , i would bad mounth the other team that isn't respecting me as a manager also . Most of the people don't seem to care about the coaches , because they don't entertain them ... Thats why i think Kespa should take over SC2 in korea , as stupid as some of their decision were they are doing a great job at keeping the BW scene as proffesional as it should be .
I believe this happens all the time in sports, good players are rare so when a player is known to be unhappy with his team he will be approached by other teams and only if he agrees to switch his old team will be asked for the transfer fee knowing they will get nothing if he leaves after his contract expires anyway. Isnt that what usually happens?
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish.
Oh, I won't deny there were talks, but talk is talk, and there's nothing wrong with talking about potential opportunities. However, the interview also says aLive was looking to get out of the team before being approached by Fnatic.
Regardless, his motivation for terminating the contract early has no effect on its validity. He has not yet been signed by Fnatic. He plans on paying the early termination fee and leaving TSL. What's the problem?
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. From here, it turns into two scenarios:
1) Fnatic is not actually respectful of contracts (worst case scenario) 2) Fnatic has a low standard of professionalism/a lack of protocol (best case)
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
Wow, i just can't imagine how paranoïd Coach Lee must be after reading this, that's insane.
Besides that I'm asking myself why so many players want to leave TSL, every player gave a fairly good reason, but the malaise seems to be much deeper than that, and nobody wants let the cat out of the bag.
Am I wrong ? Because i read in many posts that the team isn't struggling in term of sponsors (unlike Prime for ex.), they give salaries, and basically money doesnt seems to be a major issue.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish.
Oh, I won't deny there were talks, but talk is talk, and there's nothing wrong with talking about potential opportunities. However, the interview also says aLive was looking to get out of the team before being approached by Fnatic.
Regardless, his motivation for terminating the contract early has no effect on its validity. He has not yet been signed by Fnatic. He plans on paying the early termination fee and leaving TSL. What's the problem?
Depends on how "potential" the opportunities were. If the talks were "look, if you leave TSL, you can join Fnatic" kind of talks, then it's basically a verbal contract.
On January 19 2012 03:50 raga4ka wrote: Coach Lee should make this penalty fee bigger in the future . Then players will think twice , about trying to pull a fast one over him . Even if that wasn't Fnatic or aLive's intentions they still did wrong and props to Coach Lee for catching them . Whenever he should have made it public or not it's his decision if he feels that he is being bamboozled and knows whats up . Most of the people don't seem to care about the coaches , because they don't entertain them ... Thats why i think Kespa should take over SC2 in korea , as stupid as some of their decision were they are doing a great job at keeping the BW scene as proffesional as it should be .
For me this incident only makes Coach Lee seem like a drama queen. Accept the penalty money and move on. If he thinks this is how he get retaliation... In my eyes he only destroys the reputation of TSL.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
Huh? You mean the interview where he clearly states that there is a chance that he won't get signed by Fnatic after all this controversy started over him?
I fixed that for you since you seem to have misunderstood the statement.
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. From here, it turns into two scenarios:
1) Fnatic is not actually respectful of contracts (worst case scenario) 2) Fnatic has a low standard of professionalism/a lack of protocol (best case)
Take your pick.
In the interview aLive says TSL players aren't getting paid and the contracts they have were for show. How can TSL get upset when they set themselves up to be a feeder program for any team who puts a $ investment into their players?
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish.
Oh, I won't deny there were talks, but talk is talk, and there's nothing wrong with talking about potential opportunities. However, the interview also says aLive was looking to get out of the team before being approached by Fnatic.
Regardless, his motivation for terminating the contract early has no effect on its validity. He has not yet been signed by Fnatic. He plans on paying the early termination fee and leaving TSL. What's the problem?
Depends on how "potential" the opportunities were. If the talks were "look, if you leave TSL, you can join Fnatic" kind of talks, then it's basically a verbal contract.
In his interview he states he already told Coach Lee he wanted to leave back when JYP did. I don't understand all the controversy here. aLive wants out of TSL and is willing to buy out his contract to do so. Fnatic are interested in signing him WHEN HIS OBLIGATIONS WITH TSL ARE OVER. There is nothing shady about any of this, people are just stirring up drama for nothing.
No one is blameless here, but I believe Coach Lee is at fault for how much of a show this has become.
If Coach Lee hadn't been snooping the skype messages of aLive like he was an enacted SOPA, we wouldn't have an issue. aLive would've left in July with no huff and joined Fnatic...whom I honestly believe isn't the correct team for aLive anyway. I think Quantic would be the best place for him to go since they are partnered with Startale. Both teams have scary players on them and it would allow for aLive to get decent practice with both foreigners like NaNiwa, SaSe and Destiny and Koreans like July, RainBOw, Squirtle and Bomber. Fnatic really only has the notable Rain and yah, I guess Moon. If Fnatic still had TT1, KawaiiRice, Gretorp and Sen, I might say aLive should go there.
Honestly I don't really understand why Korean players are going to foreign teams anyways. The Korean teams are by far the most successful. But I guess it's highly competitive and you are shadowed constantly by someone better than you. aLive would definitely be shadowed on team IM as well as SlayerS.
On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote: i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE?
Lol i didnt accuse him of hacking but in general "well how did he get that then" it comes under "hacking" kinda.
And re read your point back....
"even coach lee himself, stumbled acress the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on" hmm so you stumble across someones chat logs on skype xD find that hard to belive sir!
Anyway like someone from france said, in Europe its illegal to check on work members emails let alone skypes/msn's
illegal in france does not make it illegal everywhere else in the world. Again - work computer - that's property of the company, not you.
What has property of the work got to do with YOUR personal account on a social program? He went on the computer to find purposly or maybe not. Maybe he went on it casually, but still how do u end up in Skype chat logs for aLive one of your players who you think maybe acting fishy or said he wanted to leaeve previous day?
Not just in france i said E U R O P E, europes pretty big yo!
On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote: Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either.
Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone.
Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive.
The only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement.
Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL.
This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish.
Oh, I won't deny there were talks, but talk is talk, and there's nothing wrong with talking about potential opportunities. However, the interview also says aLive was looking to get out of the team before being approached by Fnatic.
Regardless, his motivation for terminating the contract early has no effect on its validity. He has not yet been signed by Fnatic. He plans on paying the early termination fee and leaving TSL. What's the problem?
Depends on how "potential" the opportunities were. If the talks were "look, if you leave TSL, you can join Fnatic" kind of talks, then it's basically a verbal contract.
I guess we'll have to wait and find out what the talks entailed, then. As I've said before, though, the fact that aLive wanted out of TSL before the talks with Fnatic significantly weaken the arguments for player poaching.
On January 19 2012 03:50 raga4ka wrote: Coach Lee should make this penalty fee bigger in the future . Then players will think twice , about trying to pull a fast one over him . Even if that wasn't Fnatic or aLive's intentions they still did wrong and props to Coach Lee for catching them . Whenever he should have made it public or not it's his decision if he feels that he is being bamboozled and knows whats up . Most of the people don't seem to care about the coaches , because they don't entertain them ... Thats why i think Kespa should take over SC2 in korea , as stupid as some of their decision were they are doing a great job at keeping the BW scene as proffesional as it should be .
If he keeps his players happy, he won't have to deal with this in the future. Contracts are only paper and though they can be enforced, it is normally not worth it. Even so, do you think Alex Garfield of EG doesn't expect other teams to try and sign Idra or Huk? He does and he has such a good relationship with them that Idra commonly brings him the offers so they can laugh about it(see in intervie with DJ wheat after the Puma event). Having them sign contracts does not mean he has them locked in for a full year and doesn't need to do anything. From reports, a lot of players have left the team and we have to wonder why. I don't think it because they have a bad cook...
Whatever happened, Fnatic definitely made contact with Alive while he was still under contract with TSL. It doesn't matter whether Alive initiated contact or not. They talked to him and clearly showed enough interest to warrant Alive leaving TSL. If they discussed anything concerning them acquiring him, they should've made sure to contact TSL and coach Lee. If they sign him now for free, then that's poaching. I hope they pay TSL compensation if they decide to go through with signing him. If they decide to halt their interest in Alive, then I guess that's kind of messed up too.
This is why you do things through proper channels. It avoids all this unnecessary and unhealthy drama. If Alive asked Fnatic if they were interest in signing him, and they said yes, Fnatic then should've told TSL and coach Lee that he approached first and they were interested. Then they could iron out all the appropriate details like compensation. This whole affair just reeks of amateurish and back alley business practices.
On January 19 2012 03:50 raga4ka wrote: Coach Lee should make this penalty fee bigger in the future . Then players and other will think twice , about trying to pull a fast one over him . Even if that wasn't Fnatic or aLive's intentions they still did wrong and props to Coach Lee for catching them . Whenever he should have made it public or not it's his decision if he feels that he is being bamboozled and knows whats up , i would bad mounth the other team that isn't respecting me as a manager also . Most of the people don't seem to care about the coaches , because they don't entertain them ... Thats why i think Kespa should take over SC2 in korea , as stupid as some of their decision were they are doing a great job at keeping the BW scene as proffesional as it should be .
Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread:
After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws:
Unless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
Coach Lee will always be some sort of control freak drama queen. Going through the guy's Skype messages? Really? He should stop considering going to court with this to collect the fee, there was no negotiation of a contract, much less a signed one, but he knowingly breached aLive's privacy. I'm sure the court would love that, lol. aLive should just use the usual way of leaving with notice and then make the switch to Fnatic, saves him 10m Won, Probably more than a month's salary at Fnatic (usually the notice has to be handed in 4-5 weeks before leaving a working contract, at least in western countries).
Would have been better by Fnatic to approach Lee directly but hearing all this stuff I kinda understand why they did it...the other guys leaving doesn't make a good argument for TSL's Lee^^
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
Wow, i just can't imagine how paranoïd Coach Lee must be after reading this, that's insane.
Besides that I'm asking myself why so many players want to leave TSL, every player gave a fairly good reason, but the malaise seems to be much deeper than that, and nobody wants let the cat out of the bag.
Am I wrong ? Because i read in many posts that the team isn't struggling in term of sponsors (unlike Prime for ex.), they give salaries, and basically money doesnt seems to be a major issue.
If he keeps his players happy, he won't have to deal with this in the future. Contracts are only paper and though they can be enforced, it is normally not worth it. Even so, do you think Alex Garfield of EG doesn't expect other teams to try and sign Idra or Huk? He does and he has such a good relationship with them that Idra commonly brings him the offers so they can laugh about it(see in intervie with DJ wheat after the Puma event). Having them sign contracts does not mean he has them locked in for a full year and doesn't need to do anything. From reports, a lot of players have left the team and we have to wonder why. I don't think it because they have a bad cook...
I am having a guess that the practice regime is to strict for them to handle and they don't approve of the practise environment as he is a former BW coach . His methods produce good players even if they end up leaving the team and thats all i am interested in . It feels like MBC game already . Hyun should be more loyal thought as he already knows what he is dealing with .
On January 19 2012 04:01 Telcontar wrote: Whatever happened, Fnatic definitely made contact with Alive while he was still under contract with TSL. It doesn't matter whether Alive initiated contact or not. They talked to him and clearly showed enough interest to warrant Alive leaving TSL. If they discussed anything concerning them acquiring him, they should've made sure to contact TSL and coach Lee. If they sign him now for free, then that's poaching. I hope they pay TSL compensation if they decide to go through with signing him. If they decide to halt their interest in Alive, then I guess that's kind of messed up too.
This is why you do things through proper channels. It avoids all this unnecessary and unhealthy drama. If Alive asked Fnatic if they were interest in signing him, and they said yes, Fnatic then should've told TSL and coach Lee that he approached first and they were interested. Then they could iron out all the appropriate details like compensation.
Fnatic's translator, who happened to also be aLive's friend, talks about being signed by Fnatic. I do not know if they directly employee him or if he is just the translator they normally hire, but he is not the head of team. That is not reaching out in any terms, legal or otherwise. No offer was made(the first part of a contract) and I don't think the translator could have made the offer by himself. If the translator isn't employeed directly by Fnatic, it is just two friends talking about what team aLive will go to when he leaves.
On January 19 2012 04:07 ppshchik wrote: Don't you have to find a new job and get accepted before you quit your current job? What is wrong with what Alive is doing?
People seem to think that when you're under a contract you're not allowed to explore your options.
On January 19 2012 04:07 ppshchik wrote: Don't you have to find a new job and get accepted before you quit your current job? What is wrong with what Alive is doing?
Nothings wrong with it as long as he pays the exit fees, which he plans on doing. I just hope Fnatic chooses to actually sign him since they sort of swayed his decision to break the contract to join them rather than wait until he was a free player.
aLive was unprofessional for talking to Fnatic without talking to Lee first, Fnatic was unprofessional for encouraging this knowing he was under contract, Lee is unprofessional for running to the media with false information after they had apparently come to an agreement about a transfer fee. Lee was also a little shady for reading aLive's Skype conversation, but that's almost beside the point.
Good on aLive for taking advantage of the situation as best he can; he's out of TSL-- which is what he seems to have mainly wanted -- and is leveraging pressure on Fnatic to sign him since they do share part of the blame. I don't even know if Lee can sue aLive for this since, again, there was no technical breach of contract, but if he does, then Fnatic and aLive should split the cost.
What kind of a douche sniffs on his players' chat logs!?! Is "coach" Lee North Korean? And then goes to the media crying they didn't contact me first! They don't have to! Having a contract with a player doesn't make him the coach's slave. He can negotiate with other teams if he wants to. The only thing that Fnatic had to do is pay/do whatever is needed to get him out of his old contract. Which I'm sure they would've done quietly, if it wasn't for coach Lee's public whining. This is also the second time he has done this. Clearly something's wrong with the guy.
On January 19 2012 04:03 Jimmeh wrote: Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread:
After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws:
Unless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
Nicely done. This was a skype conversation, but could likely be covered under the same law since it deal with electronic communications. I was not a fan of that part of the story. The fact that he coach Lee was actively camping their skype discussions is not encouraging and slightly creepy. After all, these players and family and girlfriends. Even though they are TSL's computers, it is super unprofessional. If you don't trust someone, don't hire them.
I don't get why it's poor Alive. Alive fucked up. It's not like he was a slave on TSL. Even if he didn't like staying there anymore, he signed a professional contract and was getting paid actual money (not Monopoly money) to represent TSL and their sponsors until July. Which is especially important since he was their only current player in Code S and would be the most seen out of all the TSL players at the moment.
I know Alive is young and all, but I don't think it's that hard to understand a contract. If Alive wanted to leave, he should have went to Lee directly and left like JYP, Killer and Clide who all got permission to leave without any fuss. JYP and Clide both joined new teams with no problem and are happy where they are. Alive and the translator, who seemed to have started talks of signing a deal before even the Fnatic team knew about it, from my view point, are the ones to blame most harshly in this matter. It makes Fnatic look bad. It makes TSL look bad. Shit, it makes e-sports in general look bad. How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
Sorry but Coach Lee seems to be a real pain in the ass. Prints out skype conversations? Who does that really? If he wants to leave he should be able to leave, even if there is a contract they should try to work something out. I just can't get over the fact that he probably since the last drama when Puma or whoever it was is now logging everyone's computer?
On January 19 2012 02:41 Chill wrote: This seems like the smallest deal in the world.
Someone wants to get out of their contract, which is fine as there is a pay-out clause. Someone else says they will hire that person after they're contract-free. They mistakenly announce they've signed him before the contract is in place.
So the only mistake here was announcing they signed him before they had. Honestly, who cares? Alive will pay the buy-out fee and then sign with fnatic. People leave companies to join other ones all the time. They have signed offer letters before they quit their existing job.
On January 19 2012 02:49 Chill wrote: Oh, fnatic didn't even announce they signed him? LOL then what is this thread? They casually talked to him and said they would contract him if he got out of his existing contract? Right, that's how business works.
This is his life. This is how he feeds him self. He isn't cheating TSL, he's fairly living up to his end of the contract. While doing what's best for your self may be "selfish", it isn't immoral if your not cheating or doing anything illegal.
Seems like Alive got a pretty raw deal on that contract (then again I don't know his salary), but it makes perfect sense to me from his PoV--Would you want to pay 9000USD to quit your job before even trying to find a new one?
Anyways, contracts are voluntary and its perfectly acceptable for Alive to seek other opportunities, especially since he seems willing to pay the fee. Unless he actually signed a contract with Fnatic, I still don't see what he's done wrong yet. Is it a breach of contract to even speak with other teams?
On January 19 2012 01:32 Jackle wrote: Although Coach Lee overreacted and went to the Korean press too early, isn't this the same situation with Puma, a foreign team contacted the player first before talking with management.
I love how when this was EG everyone was dumping hate on them for using dirty underhanded tactics saying that they were stealing players just accusing them of being complete villains. Now you have almost the exact same situation except this player actually does have a contract with TSL, but the tone of the conversation is fnatic was being "shady" and something must be wrong with coach Lee. *cough* double standards *cough*
On January 19 2012 04:01 Telcontar wrote: Whatever happened, Fnatic definitely made contact with Alive while he was still under contract with TSL. It doesn't matter whether Alive initiated contact or not. They talked to him and clearly showed enough interest to warrant Alive leaving TSL. If they discussed anything concerning them acquiring him, they should've made sure to contact TSL and coach Lee. If they sign him now for free, then that's poaching. I hope they pay TSL compensation if they decide to go through with signing him. If they decide to halt their interest in Alive, then I guess that's kind of messed up too.
This is why you do things through proper channels. It avoids all this unnecessary and unhealthy drama. If Alive asked Fnatic if they were interest in signing him, and they said yes, Fnatic then should've told TSL and coach Lee that he approached first and they were interested. Then they could iron out all the appropriate details like compensation.
Fnatic's translator, who happened to also be aLive's friend, talks about being signed by Fnatic. I do not know if they directly employee him or if he is just the translator they normally hire, but he is not the head of team. That is not reaching out in any terms, legal or otherwise. No offer was made(the first part of a contract) and I don't think the translator could have made the offer by himself. If the translator isn't employeed directly by Fnatic, it is just two friends talking about what team aLive will go to when he leaves.
So Alive was already planning to leave Fnatic before asking around? If so, why is coach Lee making such a big deal about it? Surely there is some suspicion or evidence that Alive left because he found another team. I guess we'll just have to wait for more information for this thing to clear up, if it ever will.
On January 19 2012 04:19 xsevR wrote: Seems like Alive got a pretty raw deal on that contract (then again I don't know his salary), but it makes perfect sense to me from his PoV--Would you want to pay 9000USD to quit your job before even trying to find a new one?
Anyways, contracts are voluntary and its perfectly acceptable for Alive to seek other opportunities, especially since he seems willing to pay the fee. Unless he actually signed a contract with Fnatic, I still don't see what he's done wrong yet. Is it a breach of contract to even speak with other teams?
It is frowned upon simply due to the fact that it creates nonstop turmoil. Do you want to worry every single day that a team can at any moment come to a player of yours with an offer and lose him immediately? Instead of worrying about your players performance and practice you now have this constant worry. That's why in most major sports there are periods where talks between all parties are allowed to occur. So that you have these limited windows and then you get back to worrying 100% about the competition until the next period.
TSL players seemed to be really intrigued by foreign teams if anything. you can criticize the team all you want for making it easy to leave but why join foreign teams? there's an obvious reason too
'hey coach, we'd like to talk to alive about signing him when his contract ends with you, do you mind?' 'you want to sign him after his contract ends, so we don't make any money from the transfer despite having invested financially in his training and having our sponsorships resting on an ever weakening roster - no, i don't think so'
'hey alive, your contract ends in july, where you gonna live bro? either sign a new one with us or move out and good luck making a living' 'oh maaan, but then I won't have any income and I don't know if anyone else even wants me - I don't like this team particularly but I do like to eat' 'so are you going to sign on? obviously if an offer comes in for you we'll pass it on - we aren't going to force you to stay hahaha' 'oh sure then, I'll sign on with you for another year'
'oh he signed on for another year with them - must want to stay.. well we won't try to prise him away then'
'hey fnatic bro's, you can have him if you want but it'll cost you muchos won' 'sorry, now we have to pay you a fee in addition to the wages alive wants it isn't a worthwhile investment for us'
On January 19 2012 04:12 Vadrigar wrote: What kind of a douche sniffs on his players' chat logs!?! Is "coach" Lee North Korean? And then goes to the media crying they didn't contact me first! They don't have to! Having a contract with a player doesn't make him the coach's slave. He can negotiate with other teams if he wants to. The only thing that Fnatic had to do is pay/do whatever is needed to get him out of his old contract. Which I'm sure they would've done quietly, if it wasn't for coach Lee's public whining. This is also the second time he has done this. Clearly something's wrong with the guy.
User was warned for this post
There are cultural boundaries that make these types of negotiations a sensitive issue. In Korean culture, it is proper to talk to the coach first before contacting the player. Also, you don't know if it stated in the contract that Alive had whether it prohibited talking to other teams. If it did, then Alive would be in breach of contract and Coach Lee would have every right to pursue legal recourse and be upset.
A lot of people seem to be attacking Coach Lee, but can you really blame the guy? His team is falling apart from the inside out. Apparently TSLheart has left the team as well according to a few mentions on twitter. TSL is dying.
On January 19 2012 04:34 alhazrel wrote: 'hey coach, we'd like to talk to alive about signing him when his contract ends with you, do you mind?' 'you want to sign him after his contract ends, so we don't make any money from the transfer despite having invested financially in his training and having our sponsorships resting on an ever weakening roster - no, i don't think so'
'hey alive, your contract ends in july, where you gonna live bro? either sign a new one with us or move out and good luck making a living' 'oh maaan, but then I won't have any income and I don't know if anyone else even wants me - I don't like this team particularly but I do like to eat' 'so are you going to sign on? obviously if an offer comes in for you we'll pass it on - we aren't going to force you to stay hahaha' 'oh sure then, I'll sign on with you for another year'
'oh he signed on for another year with them - must want to stay.. well we won't try to prise him away then'
'hey fnatic bro's, you can have him if you want but it'll cost you muchos won' 'sorry, now we have to pay you a fee in addition to the wages alive wants it isn't a worthwhile investment for us'
Sir, I wouldn't want to call what you posted as made up BS, but I would ask how you come about such a conclusion of facts?
aLive was talking with his friend (who also happens to be the translator for fnatic) on skype. aLive was probably discussing his desire to leave TSL as things for the team have been going a bit down hill with player transfers and all around discomfort in the house. His friend (fnatic translator) could have mentioned that he could be a good fit for fnatic blah blah blah and it would be fun/cool for aLive to be a part of fnatic as he could be with his friend, in a sense. aLive very well could have agreed that that sounded like a good idea.... etc etc.
From Fnatic's point of view it sounds like they never contacted their translator to start prodding at aLive. although it is important before this all blows out of proportion (oops too late)....
THAT LEE SHOULD PROBABLY RELEASE THE SKYPE CONVO
although he probably won't do that because he feels like a fool for assuming the fnatic translator was sent to poach aLive from TSL. When in reality it was probably just a theoretical suggestion from one friend to another.
On January 19 2012 01:23 Pandemona wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
SPOILER TAG MAYBE
FML t.t
These comments piss me off something immensely. If you don't want to be spoiled about recent results from the biggest SC2 tournament there is, how about you don't go to a site that calls itself a "Starcraft 2 and Brood War Pro Gaming News" website before checking out the matches yourself. Christ.
On topic: As often is the case with the TSL affairs, accusations are flying everywhere and it's hard to tell who's done what wrong. After how aLive played today though I hope it works out alright for him, would be a real shame for him not to end up on a team seeing how good he is.
Although aLive is also partly in the wrong here, if 10+ players have left the team in similar ways there has to be something wrong with how TSL is runned.
The Korean scene is far too emotional. This is their job. This is not an after school club or a simple passtime.
When they have a better offer, they need to take it. Just because Coach Lee thinks hugs and smiles can lock in talent for life dose not mean Alive did anything wrong.
If he pays the fee, that is the end of the controversy.
Instead of trying to drag former teammates down like Coach Lee loves to do, he should try to better his own organisation.
nobody can desagree that aLive had a huge role in this...but printing out private conversations? that left me speachless seriously. What does he do..print out conversations between players and their gf's also? intimecy is something higly priced werever u go. If u do that stuff without the acceptance of the other person...i fear that this incident would pay the penalty fee easy.
Also..i see he desperatly wants to get out of TSL...he is willing to make anything possible..even paying TSL out of his own money just to get rid of them... waw...that's another big thing.
All i see is fanatic probing if the player was interested in switching teams and what kind of pay would he expect.
I fail to understand why they should go first through the coach. Imagine fanatic manager talking to coach Lee "Hey. We want one of your players Alive. We don't know if he is willing to play for us and for how much but let us buy his contract..."
To be honest i don't see anything wrong here. First you contact the player if he is willing to play for you and for how much, then you contact his team if they are willing to part with that player. Standard business.
On January 19 2012 04:59 Logros wrote: Although aLive is also partly in the wrong here, if 10+ players have left the team in similar ways there has to be something wrong with how TSL is runned.
One of the possible explanations is that this problem lies with idea of morale, or the spirit of the team. The other, of course, the one to which you were likely referring, is that there's something tangible wrong with the team, as a result of involved parties behaving in suboptimal ways, aka making mistakes, or lacking aligned goals.
On January 19 2012 05:09 Frankon wrote: All i see is fanatic probing if the player was interested in switching teams and what kind of pay would he expect.
Ridiculous that people try to defend one of the parties involved. They all have done mistakes, thats pretty obvious. I think aLive did the biggest shit, followed by Lee, followed by fnatic. Stupidity in da house, to be honest. You cant break contracts. You cant logg chats. And you also cant make people break contacts. Its sad to see they immature things happen in sc2. Hurts the community as a whole. Shut up @all people involved now and get your shit together and tell us when its done.
On January 19 2012 04:07 ppshchik wrote: Don't you have to find a new job and get accepted before you quit your current job? What is wrong with what Alive is doing?
Yes it happens but also don't be surprised your current employer is pissed off because he hasn't had time to look to replace you whilst you have been looking.
Also an employee should officially give notice before he leaves, just like an employer should give the employee advanced notice that he is going to lose his job.
I don't think Alive has done anything wrong in this situation, its pretty clear that Lee runs his team as a dictator and if I was Alive it sue him for going into my personal conversations like that. The evdience is pretty clear as to why all the good players leave TSL imo.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
This should be settled in the court of law, and not in the court of public opinion.
This expectation that players aren't allowed to talk to other teams on their own seems really harmful to me. Players should be able to ask around and see what the best deal they could get is. That's how we make sure players are fairly compensated. They shouldn't actually be able to leave without the permission of their current team (or paying whatever penalty was agreed to in the contract, etc.), but they should always be able to have those conversations and see what's best for them. To not let them do that is essentially to have the team owners acting together as a monopoly to push the player wages down.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
This should be settled in the court of law, and not in the court of public opinion.
if you don't like public opinions, then keeps yours to yourself while we have ours on teamliquid. ok?
Alive said he planned to pay for breaking the contract fee and he would talk to coach Lee about it. It's that simple and plain. Open, shut case right there. Coach Lee seem to blame Fnatic out of spite. Seriously if there are a bunch of players who dislike and they decide to leave. Then it isn't call poaching whatever team they decide to go to next.
Coach Lee treats his players like slaves...checking their skype conversations? He thinks he OWNS them, no wonder they are leaving. I don't mind, as long as the players themselves remain in the starcraft secene(Alive, jyp, etc.)
I'm just getting more and more convinced that the TSL coach is a scumbag. Especially the whole 'reading my players skype log' thing. After pretty much the entire team leaving, too. Polt is on the team but he's not actually in the training house, correct? I wonder if Hyun has the same situation.
Coach Lee... we now have proof to question his management.
I dont think Alive is too much at fault here.. he as already planning on leaving TSL and had already spoken to Lee about the matter. Supposedly there was an understanding between the 2 and Coach Lee even offered Alive the chance to leave. His mistake was staying in that environment.
So coach Lee snooping around on Alive's computer finds out that hes been talking to fnatic and snaps even though Alive is not physically with the team and was given a chance to leave and wanted to stay then going public with false information (again).. its no wonder TSL has issues.
Alive also stated what everyone's been thinking, TSL has a bad image, even to their own players.
I'm a little shocked that people continue to support TSL and feel sorry for that given the history of the team. I guess the loyalty is commendable but you guys will eventually get tired from all the apparent "bad luck" they're receiving and realize that team is just a ship wreck.
if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
The whole thing with Coach Lee printing off his skype convo, may be fine in korea. Alot of artists have their cellphones monitored/no cell phone at all.
On January 19 2012 05:09 Frankon wrote: All i see is fanatic probing if the player was interested in switching teams and what kind of pay would he expect.
Uh, because that is actually poaching
Exactly. They can't go the Evil Geniuses approach (i.e. how PuMa was signed) and directly approach the player without any prior knowledge or consent from the other team. That controversy was enough to convince EG to make their future player purchases seem a lot more ethical and competitive (such as how they emphasised that they approached Nazgul first about purchasing HuK.
Fnatic has done an EG here. aLive's confession about this more or less proves it. But also, it's wierder that Coach Lee is checking through his players' skype conversations.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it. But still, I knew that I had fault in this so I acknowledged those parts and I asked for his understanding and apologized.
This confirms that:
Fnatic (or one of their translators) approached him first and not approached Coach Lee about buying him. This is why Coach Lee got shitty about EG purchasing PuMa from his team in the first place. He was not approached about it prior.
Coach Lee caught wind of this when he checked aLive's computer for chat logs. He may have been suspicious that something was up due to the fact that one of his star players already got poached by a foreign team.
Wow after this and all the other drama... I really lost my respect for coach lee... He seems like a paranoid drama queen control freak, but well. we dont know all the details. Still, shame on you! No need for this public spectacle if you just handled it more maturely. Also, if fnatic doesnt sign alive after this I will lose respect for them too lol. Pick this kid up after he went through all this. aLive fighting!
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe.
It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change.
On January 19 2012 01:23 Pandemona wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
SPOILER TAG MAYBE
FML t.t
This kind of posts really piss me off, it's a STARCRAFT PROGAMING NEWS site, of course there will be news on tournament results. If you don't want to know the results then don't come before watching it sheeeesh.
On January 19 2012 05:09 Frankon wrote: All i see is fanatic probing if the player was interested in switching teams and what kind of pay would he expect.
Uh, because that is actually poaching
Exactly. They can't go the Evil Geniuses approach (i.e. how PuMa was signed) and directly approach the player without any prior knowledge or consent from the other team. That controversy was enough to convince EG to make their future player purchases seem a lot more ethical and competitive (such as how they emphasised that they approached Nazgul first about purchasing HuK.
Fnatic has done an EG here. aLive's confession about this more or less proves it. But also, it's wierder that Coach Lee is checking through his players' skype conversations.
Smixx posted something about the conversation in question you should probably read before you continue to post here. Something along the lines of "that conversation was completly informal between two friends". Yes alive was under contract, but as he said he was planning to "buy out" of his contract via the penalty fee. If he wants to do that there is nothing Coach Lee can do to stop him.
The entire situation with alive wanting to leave when JYP etc. did, but decides to stay some more as a "sort of member" with Coach Lee's blessing makes the entire mess even more complicated...
Frankly even if we knew all the details sorting this shit out would take a Judge and a barrel full of lawyers... imho none of them behaved properly.
It's a little stunning here how many people think it's somehow wrong to explore future employment opportunities before you quit your current position. I mean, isn't that completely standard pretty much all around the world? How many of us would quit our jobs before looking for the next one? Anyone?
Regarding the chat logs, it seems that much of the discussion here is split along cultural lines. In europe there's a stronger tradition of workers' rights than in the US, and I think people from europe are more likely to find employers spying on private conversations abhorrent. I certainly do.
When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing.
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts.
Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's!
Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe.
It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change.
i thought the whole idea derived from the fact that you can't spy on things you own. how would ownership not make any difference?
On January 19 2012 05:09 Frankon wrote: All i see is fanatic probing if the player was interested in switching teams and what kind of pay would he expect.
Uh, because that is actually poaching
Exactly. They can't go the Evil Geniuses approach (i.e. how PuMa was signed) and directly approach the player without any prior knowledge or consent from the other team. That controversy was enough to convince EG to make their future player purchases seem a lot more ethical and competitive (such as how they emphasised that they approached Nazgul first about purchasing HuK.
Fnatic has done an EG here. aLive's confession about this more or less proves it. But also, it's wierder that Coach Lee is checking through his players' skype conversations.
Smixx posted something about the conversation in question you should probably read before you continue to post here. Something along the lines of "that conversation was completly informal between two friends". Yes alive was under contract, but as he said he was planning to "buy out" of his contract via the penalty fee. If he wants to do that there is nothing Coach Lee can do to stop him.
The entire situation with alive wanting to leave when JYP etc. did, but decides to stay some more as a "sort of member" with Coach Lee's blessing makes the entire mess even more complicated...
Frankly even if we knew all the details sorting this shit out would take a Judge and a barrel full of lawyers... imho none of them behaved properly.
It still raises the question of "How should we ethically approach purchasing other players?" because EG's appraoch towards PuMa brewed a fucktonne of controversy.
Like I said, Fnatic or rather the translator are at fault here. Even if it was a "conversation between two friends", the translator should have acted more professional than "Hey, wanna ditch TSL and come to our team?"
On January 19 2012 06:14 Nicator wrote: It's a little stunning here how many people think it's somehow wrong to explore future employment opportunities before you quit your current position. I mean, isn't that completely standard pretty much all around the world? How many of us would quit our jobs before looking for the next one? Anyone?
Regarding the chat logs, it seems that much of the discussion here is split along cultural lines. In europe there's a stronger tradition of workers' rights than in the US, and I think people from europe are more likely to find employers spying on private conversations abhorrent. I certainly do.
Yeah. Even the outrage over the sequence seems a little odd. Wouldn't you want to first contact a player to ascertain whether or not he's interested in switching teams before proceeding further?
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
I don't like all this talk of technicalities.
If alive pays up the fee for breaking the contract early, he technically hasn't broken the contract because he paid up. Did he still do the wrong thing by signing a contract and not living up to his commitments? Sure, but he's followed the letter of the law.
On the other hand, even if Mr Lee had legal grounds for spying on his players, that doesn't make spying something we should all be ok with.
Basically, everyone who is in this thread picking sides is wrong. If Mr Lee has done nothing wrong because it's legally ok for him to spy on his players, you can't also say that alive is wrong for leaving his team while offering to pay the breach of contract fee. If you're siding with alive arguing that he's willing to pay up, you can't blame Mr Lee for spying, since it probably is legal.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe.
It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change.
i thought the whole idea derived from the fact that you can't spy on things you own. how would ownership not make any difference?
You own the hardware, not the conversations or the right to look at them.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe.
It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change.
i thought the whole idea derived from the fact that you can't spy on things you own. how would ownership not make any difference?
You own the hardware, not the conversations or the right to look at them.
no... i thought it was you own the hardware, you own anything that is stored.
On January 19 2012 06:14 Nicator wrote: It's a little stunning here how many people think it's somehow wrong to explore future employment opportunities before you quit your current position. I mean, isn't that completely standard pretty much all around the world? How many of us would quit our jobs before looking for the next one? Anyone?
Regarding the chat logs, it seems that much of the discussion here is split along cultural lines. In europe there's a stronger tradition of workers' rights than in the US, and I think people from europe are more likely to find employers spying on private conversations abhorrent. I certainly do.
Yeah. Even the outrage over the sequence seems a little odd. Wouldn't you want to first contact a player to ascertain whether or not he's interested in switching teams before proceeding further?
I believe in an ideal world Fnatic's management goes to their translator who then goes to Coach Lee who then tells about the offer to aLive. I don't know how real that is.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
If you insist on e-lawyering at least be correct. As has been argued before in this thread, checking private information on a work PC is illegal in Korea. It would be legal to some extent in North America, and again illegal in most of Europe.
It doesn't really matter who owns the equipment btw, if a Sponsor owns the PC on paper e.g. nothing about the legality of checking private logs on a pc would change.
i thought the whole idea derived from the fact that you can't spy on things you own. how would ownership not make any difference?
You own the hardware, not the conversations or the right to look at them.
no... i thought it was you own the hardware, you own anything that is stored.
Right, except you don't - at least in Europe and, apparently, Korea. In those areas workers have rights to privacy in respect to personal conversations.
Put it this way: If you borrowed my computer to use gmail, would it be legal or right for me to run a keylogger to capture what you wrote? After all, I own the hardware.
On January 19 2012 06:16 dsousa wrote: When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing.
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts.
Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's!
Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it.
I think everyone's being too harsh on Coach Lee. He's undoubtedly concerned because TSL lost a lot of players last year due to both opposition towards his new direction or to player poaching, tried to change things around, and then as TSL's starting to improve again, BAM. Another player poached.
Okay, apart from checking chat logs of one of his players, what has he really done that is dictatorish? Some players have complained about the practice regimen that has been set and have yearned for the prize money of foreign tournaments, hence they've been looking to the West for contracts. I haven't heard anything specific about Lee acting negligent and they should have known their practice schedule when they signed up on TSL's contract. He's angry because a team has approached one of his players with a cheque book ready without first contacting him, and understandably too. That is poaching no matter what you say about Coach Lee.
Imagine if some filthy rich oil tycoon from either Russia or the Middle East had started a StarCraft II team, privately and secretly approached IdrA, DeMusliM, Ret, Stephano, Mvp, NesTea, MarineKing, MC, HerO, Jaedong, Bisu and Flash and convinced them to join his team, offering multi million pound salaries for each player, offering to pay in full for any contract breach penalties and purchasing a mansion in Seoul as a team house for them all to practice in.
How do you think Evil Geniuses, TeamLiquid, Incredible Miracle, Prime, SK Gaming, KeSPA and all the Brood War teams will feel about this?
On January 19 2012 06:16 dsousa wrote: When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing.
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts.
Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's!
Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it.
I think everyone's being too harsh on Coach Lee. He's undoubtedly concerned because TSL lost a lot of players last year due to both opposition towards his new direction or to player poaching, tried to change things around, and then as TSL's starting to improve again, BAM. Another player poached.
Okay, apart from checking chat logs of one of his players, what has he really done that is dictatorish? He's angry because a team has approached one of his players with a cheque book ready without first contacting him. That is poaching no matter what you say about Coach Lee.
Assuming his version of events is 100% accurate. There can be legitimate doubts about that as both Fnatic's version and Alive's version contradict parts of his statement.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter.
It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then.
I can't be the only one who finds it really disgusting that Coach Lee read Alive's skype? Anyway, I hope Alive joins fnatic. Would be the best korean on a foreign team at the moment imo edit: woops 14 pages
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter.
It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then.
Was that person a lawyer in South Korea or had sources for this translated in English?
On January 19 2012 06:16 dsousa wrote: When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing.
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts.
Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's!
Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it.
I think everyone's being too harsh on Coach Lee. He's undoubtedly concerned because TSL lost a lot of players last year due to both opposition towards his new direction or to player poaching, tried to change things around, and then as TSL's starting to improve again, BAM. Another player poached.
Okay, apart from checking chat logs of one of his players, what has he really done that is dictatorish? Some players have complained about the practice regimen that has been set and have yearned for the prize money of foreign tournaments, hence they've been looking to the West for contracts. I haven't heard anything specific about Lee acting negligent and they should have known their practice schedule when they signed up on TSL's contract. He's angry because a team has approached one of his players with a cheque book ready without first contacting him, and understandably too. That is poaching no matter what you say about Coach Lee.
Imagine if some filthy rich oil prince from Abu Dhabi had started a StarCraft II team, privately and secretly approached IdrA, DeMusliM, Ret, Stephano, Mvp, NesTea, MarineKing, MC and Flash and convinced them to join his team, offering multi million pound salaries for each player and purchasing a mansion in Seoul as a team house for them all to practice in.
How do you think Evil Geniuses, TeamLiquid, Incredible Miracle, Prime, SK Gaming and KT Rolster will feel about that?
Without even going into details.... but I vaguely remember there was some very poor leadership by him during the Puma thing.....
Truth is you don't need the petty he-said she-said stuff to know that Mr. Lee is a piss poor leader. You can just grade him holistically, because as the clear leader of TSL he is ultimately responsible for its results.
And its biggest results is that its players want OUT. SC2 is about the players.... and they are saying something over and over against about Mr. Lee. Dictator was just a guess, but its clearly a bad environment, otherwise kids wouldn't be willing to pay 10k to get away.
We have no idea what Mr. Lee is really like, but the tea leaves are saying some scary things IMO.
Alive and fnatic clearly get some of the blame but going onto someones computer and printing their private skype conversations? That's a fucked up thing to do. Not sure if I could compete for a manager . that
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
I agree with this. I am surprised Fnatic hasn't picked up aLive yet though and saved him from this situation because technically, they are the ones who had a loose end which started the whole situation. If Fnatic ends up not signing aLive because they won't admit to their faults and don't want a bad rep over it, I will truly be disappointed in their decision making.
On January 19 2012 06:45 On_Slaught wrote: Alive and fnatic clearly get some of the blame but going onto someones computer and printing their private skype conversations? That's a fucked up thing to do. Not sure if I could compete for a manager . that
I think Coach Lee emotionally overreacted but still I don't blame him at all because of what happened before to him with ST and EG. He should have left the skype conversations out of the public's eyes because such evidence would be better handled in court. I think he just wanted to intimidate Fnatic a bit because no one really wants to spend so much time getting involved with the legal system (such things could take months, hell it took 11 months to get an appeal on my parking ticket). In the end, basically, what I can sum up from the evidence provided on TL, it just seems Fnatic is lying and that hurt both aLive and coach lee's credibility in the public's eye. I hope Fnatic comes out with a truthful statement and not some bs we've often seen before by the PR of these gaming companies.
On January 19 2012 06:33 koning wrote: I can't be the only one who finds it really disgusting that Coach Lee read Alive's skype? Anyway, I hope Alive joins fnatic. Would be the best korean on a foreign team at the moment imo edit: woops 14 pages
wow holy shit? someone please explain? otherwise that's a huge invasion of privacy and is so gross.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter.
It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then.
Was that person a lawyer in South Korea or had sources for this translated in English?
And can you link to the source of this comment?
Quoting that post below. Obviously this deals with email, but it's not going to be a massive stretch to apply that to other electronic communications:
On January 19 2012 04:03 Jimmeh wrote: Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread:
After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws:
Unless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
On January 19 2012 06:33 koning wrote: I can't be the only one who finds it really disgusting that Coach Lee read Alive's skype? Anyway, I hope Alive joins fnatic. Would be the best korean on a foreign team at the moment imo edit: woops 14 pages
wow holy shit? someone please explain? otherwise that's a huge invasion of privacy and is so gross.
All you have to do is read the interview with ALive. It clears up a lot of confusion including the invasion of privacy by coach Lee.
On January 19 2012 06:54 FidoDido wrote: I agree with this. I am surprised Fnatic hasn't picked up aLive yet though and saved him from this situation because technically, they are the ones who had a loose end which started the whole situation. If Fnatic ends up not signing aLive because they won't admit to their faults and don't want a bad rep over it, I will truly be disappointed in their decision making.
Seriously, I really find it hard to understand what is so wrong about sounding out a player to see if they might be interested in joining your team. It's not unusual for me to get contacted by recruiters with respect to my employment, and nobody thinks that's weird or immoral. Perhaps there's a culture difference between the western and korean teams here, but it's just as incumbent on the korean teams to get used to that as it is for the western ones.
On January 19 2012 06:45 On_Slaught wrote: Alive and fnatic clearly get some of the blame but going onto someones computer and printing their private skype conversations? That's a fucked up thing to do. Not sure if I could compete for a manager . that
I think Coach Lee emotionally overreacted but still I don't blame him at all because of what happened before to him with ST and EG. He should have left the skype conversations out of the public's eyes because such evidence would be better handled in court. I think he just wanted to intimidate Fnatic a bit because no one really wants to spend so much time getting involved with the legal system (such things could take months, hell it took 11 months to get an appeal on my parking ticket). In the end, basically, what I can sum up from the evidence provided on TL, it just seems Fnatic is lying and that hurt both aLive and coach lee's credibility in the public's eye. I hope Fnatic comes out with a truthful statement and not some bs we've often seen before by the PR of these gaming companies.
You can understand someone overreacting emotionally without tolerating it or pretending it's acceptable. He should have left that evidence out of public eyes because he should never have looked at it in the first place, not because it would be better for a court.
Coach Lee has lost almost all his players. That ought to be a clear sign that something is wrong with the environment he creates.
Coach Lee got the log of a skype call off of Alive's computer, which is going to make any legal action using it very difficult because the evidence was illegally obtained. Unless it was from a computer owned by the team and at the team house... I'm not sure. Either way Alive shouldn't have done what he did, but I'm guessing that Fnatic pays the fee and he signs with them.
Most of these players are leaving, citing their unhappiness with the practice environment. Coach Lee has made issues out of PuMa leaving, and now this.
aLive is claiming that it was informal when he was speaking to Fnatic, and he's also claiming there was a similar, informal sort of agreement going on regarding him being able to leave TSL. If this is true, it sounds like those discussions all took place before TSL started exploding, and honestly, in my mind this all points to Coach Lee being in some way difficult to work with, and pushing the players away. In particular, the fact aLive claims he understood his situation differently, has me wondering if this is all kicking off because of the fact TSL are losing their last Code S player, and Coach Lee is scrambling desperately to save face in the eyes of his superiors by trying to retain players he's alienated...
I don't know anything for sure, but knowing how hardcore some coaches can be, seeing the trends, and seeing aLive's statements...well, honestly I'm more wont to side with him than TSL.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
This should be settled in the court of law, and not in the court of public opinion.
if you don't like public opinions, then keeps yours to yourself while we have ours on teamliquid. ok?
There is no need to get flamy. I never said I don't like public opinion; not that anyone can like or dislike "public opinion" as whole given the broad range of its nature.
As a contribution to the thread, let me add that these allegations are only based on aLive's words. I'd warn against believing everything someone says without a grain of salt.
/edit
If true, Coach Lee's behaviour appears to be illegal under Korean law (having read posts above). Has aLive taken legal actions? If not, why not?
On January 19 2012 07:26 plogamer wrote: If true, Coach Lee's behaviour appears to be illegal under Korean law (having read posts above). Has aLive taken legal actions? If not, why not?
Worst comes to worst, just as Coach Lee said in his article, I am thinking about taking this to the law. But if possible, I want to end this on as much of a good note as possible. Unfortunately the situation has already worsened so much. I just want to pay the penalty fee and get it over with.
He did state that if necessary he will. He just hasn't yet, I believe he's trusting a mutual agreement can be found before legal action (and costs) is made the only possible route.
A player has the right to negotiate with other teams before the expiration of their current contract so long as they don't breach the terms of their contract.
He didn't sign with Fnatic before his contract expired, he did nothing wrong.
Seems the whole situation has been blown out of proportion (once again) by Coach Lee. He's a bit of a drama queen.
On January 19 2012 07:34 Tektos wrote: A player has the right to negotiate with other teams before the expiration of their current contract so long as they don't breach the terms of their contract.
He didn't sign with Fnatic before his contract expired, he did nothing wrong.
Seems the whole situation has been blown out of proportion (once again) by Coach Lee. He's a bit of a drama queen.
The question is, is that the case in korea, and did his contract forbid it? I would imagine its possible both of those things could impact on whether it truly was lawful to approach him. This sort of thing is big in UK football for example, where players are contracted and due to various factors, clubs have all sorts of problems transferring players.
On January 19 2012 01:24 pStar wrote: Coach Lee got a skype convo off his computer.
He could get in huge trouble for that. Like, court trouble.
probaly not, because the computers probaly in the gaming house, it's the same as employer's rights to see what their employees been doing on their PC, that's of course if the contracts allow it.
On January 19 2012 01:24 pStar wrote: Coach Lee got a skype convo off his computer.
He could get in huge trouble for that. Like, court trouble.
probaly not, because the computers probaly in the gaming house, it's the same as employer's rights to see what their employees been doing on their PC, that's of course if the contracts allow it.
The law probably has no call to legislate it, but if a player living in a team house is genuinely subject to such legal methods of monitoring them during both their private and professional time, I would say that having a strong trust between employer and employee would be staggeringly crucial to avoiding longterm problems cropping up regarding invasion of privacy, be it percieved or actual.
You can't go through coaches without at least gauging interest from a player, it wouldn't make sense. Poaching team "Hey Coach, I want to have X player on my team" Coach of player"Is he interested in changing teams?" Poaching team "Dunno."
Okay so the team is dumping players left and right and has lost most of its talent and Alive is only staying on in a physical form. He's not working with the team at all any longer and was already offered an out.
Now, he wants to breach his contract and pay the fee to get off the dead-end team, which is fine.
This is such a mess, I hope Alive is able to continue competing at a high level; he is definitely a talented player who generally goes under the radar. Coach Lee looking through private conversation is o:
On January 19 2012 07:36 GoBackToGo wrote: lol at coach lee printing out private conversations of one of his players. no wonder everyone wants to leave TSL
well picture yourself, losing your most valueable player. hes most likely very angry and disappointed right now :-/
Basically, TSL started off as the first major SCII team, with the first paid salaries in Korea. Then their players got lazy and decided to take free money and stop trying so hard in SCII. Then players started to leave because they found more money elsewhere. Basically, it doesn't matter how awesome TSL might be, as long as Korean players continue being selfish and childish, TSL's name will be hurt, and the players who actually want to progress as big name progamers will have a tainted tag by their name (despite their own personal feelings towards the team).
Another unfortunate accident upon the TSL team, and Lee of course is selfish and wants to show the world how everything keeps fucking with him and his team through inappropriate channels. Fnatic ofc with another mistep, showing their lack of professionalism.
Nothing really new here, just old habits being refreshed. I don't want to wish aLive good luck, because he's a kid who does things without thinking, and only for selfish means. Not going to say good luck to Fnatic either, just because I no longer care too much about their orga. I am going to say good luck to Lee, HyuN, Polt, and RevivaL, because they work hard for a better SCII. I also look to them to make the right decisions, as they are the only rolemodels the younger TSL people have (Symbol, Cyrano, and the B-Teamers).
On January 19 2012 07:36 GoBackToGo wrote: lol at coach lee printing out private conversations of one of his players. no wonder everyone wants to leave TSL
well picture yourself, losing your most valueable player. hes most likely very angry and disappointed right now :-/
No doubt, but the issue isn't whether his reaction is understandable, its whether its legal or not.
And even leaving that aside, at the end of the day, if he is, as people seem to suspect, directly responsible for the somewhat less-than-happy exits of so many players, does he deserve our sympathy for being in a poor situation? At the end of the day, his leadership is either good enough to keep a team together and keep it playing at a high standard, or it isn't.
If it isn't, he has to face the music and perhaps accept that his way of doing things isn't the best way, or even a good way, and that he accepted responsibility for the team early on, whether they win OR lose, or indeed lose players.
On January 19 2012 07:36 GoBackToGo wrote: lol at coach lee printing out private conversations of one of his players. no wonder everyone wants to leave TSL
seriously it's starting to seem like he is the problem with TSL...
This sucks :/ aLive is one of my favorite players, and TSL is one of my favorite teams. I hope this all gets resolved soon, and aLive gets put on a good team. He deserves it!
On January 19 2012 04:34 alhazrel wrote: 'hey coach, we'd like to talk to alive about signing him when his contract ends with you, do you mind?' 'you want to sign him after his contract ends, so we don't make any money from the transfer despite having invested financially in his training and having our sponsorships resting on an ever weakening roster - no, i don't think so'
'hey alive, your contract ends in july, where you gonna live bro? either sign a new one with us or move out and good luck making a living' 'oh maaan, but then I won't have any income and I don't know if anyone else even wants me - I don't like this team particularly but I do like to eat' 'so are you going to sign on? obviously if an offer comes in for you we'll pass it on - we aren't going to force you to stay hahaha' 'oh sure then, I'll sign on with you for another year'
'oh he signed on for another year with them - must want to stay.. well we won't try to prise him away then'
'hey fnatic bro's, you can have him if you want but it'll cost you muchos won' 'sorry, now we have to pay you a fee in addition to the wages alive wants it isn't a worthwhile investment for us'
Sir, I wouldn't want to call what you posted as made up BS, but I would ask how you come about such a conclusion of facts?
Call it what you like. This is just a hypothetical example of the kind of situation that can be created when one team asks another to act in a way that would lose them an opportunity to profit.
i dont like how the situation is handled for the player. its like the teams would decide where he plays, but aside from the contract its alives choice. To say Fnatic did something wrong because they made a good offer to alive is just wierd.
On January 19 2012 01:15 Smix wrote: Last Sunday, I received an offer from a hyung that works as a Fnatic translator that said that they wanted me. I said I wanted to talk to the Fnatic manager on Monday, and I talked about more details with the translator hyung.
And the mystery deepens According to aLive, Hyun works as a translator for Fnatic. I knew it! jkjk In all seriousness though, Coach Lee is a joke. Printing out skype conversations by logging into the player's computers... that's sad. Or maybe.. Coach Lee is the translator for Fnatic and was testing aLive.
I don't even see what aLive did wrong? He is still playing for TSL, hasn't breached any contract by leaving early. It's just like any sport, he can talk to whoever the hell he wants as long as he isnt breaching the contract. Fnatic didn't do anything wrong either, they contacted the player and asked if he was interested and then went to the manager? Is it Coach Lee from MBC GAME btw? I assume it is.. he should know not to run to the press at the first minute as long as he has been in the game..
Either Fnatic should pay the fee to break the contract or he should just wait it out and then go to Fnatic for free when the contract runs out.
On January 19 2012 08:24 DwD wrote: I don't even see what aLive did wrong? He is still playing for TSL, hasn't breached any contract by leaving early. It's just like any sport, he can talk to whoever the hell he wants as long as he isnt breaching the contract. Fnatic didn't do anything wrong either, they contacted the player and asked if he was interested and then went to the manager? Is it Coach Lee from MBC GAME btw? I assume it is.. he should know not to run to the press at the first minute as long as he has been in the game..
Either Fnatic should pay the fee to break the contract or he should just wait it out and then go to Fnatic for free when the contract runs out.
According to US laws, employers have the rights to monitor its employees' computer.
At least that's my understanding, and I doubt it'll be any different in Korea
Most employers in big companies do use surveillance technology to monitor their employees’ Internet usage at work. alive don't have any legal grounds on it, but he may be in trouble if he did breach his contract
On January 19 2012 08:29 iky43210 wrote: According to US laws, employers have the rights to monitor its employees' computer.
At least that's my understanding, and I doubt it'll be any different in Korea
Most employers in big companies do use surveillance technology to monitor their employees’ Internet usage at work. alive don't have any legal grounds on it, but he may be in trouble if he did breach his contract
The laws do indeed appear to be different in Korea - US laws are by no means some kind of standard in this respect.
On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote: if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter.
It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then.
Was that person a lawyer in South Korea or had sources for this translated in English?
And can you link to the source of this comment?
Quoting that post below. Obviously this deals with email, but it's not going to be a massive stretch to apply that to other electronic communications:
On January 19 2012 04:03 Jimmeh wrote: Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread:
After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws:
Unless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
On January 19 2012 01:42 Fionn wrote: How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
Coaches monitoring players' Skype conversations are a bigger problem than players talking on a private footing to a friend from another team. Unless there's a contractual stipulation allowing the snooping to happen, or some kind of permission/loophole in Korean law, reading logs of private conversations could be a bigger violation of the law than a "mere" breach of contract. In fact, the snooping might well be criminal unless specifically allowed by some clause somewhere.
Then it will come down what's in the contract. I doubt you get to keep much of your privacy when you join something like a team house
Not that this is any important at all. If Alive does not care or isn't mad, its quite obvious that either he doesn't care or he knew the contract allowed pc monitoring.
On January 19 2012 08:45 iky43210 wrote: Then it will come down what's in the contract. I doubt you get to keep much of your privacy when you join something like a team house
Still, getting your conversations monitored... Since there are no indications of a tip preceding a one-time investigation, there's just a log pulled out of the hat like a rabbit.
The Skype print-out is strange, but I still feed bad really for all involved since the truth is almost always in the middle and it is likely none of the parties perspective is the exact truth. I hope that these scenarios cease ASAP as they are not helpful to the Korean/Western relationship and Esports in general.
Instead of arguing over the legal technicalities of a foreign legal system and contract, why can't we discuss the base things going on here?
Lee is flipping his shit (again) over what may or may not be a big deal. If it's how Fnatic is trying to make it sound, that the contact was just a casually feeling out of interest then the only person behaving incorrectly is Coach Lee. More likely though, Fnatic was being a bit shady and spoke at length with Alive while keeping Lee out of the loop - then Lee upped the ante and is causing a shitstorm out of this whole thing.
No matter what happens here, Alive is leaving TSL. Fnatic will continue on just fine (most likely with Alive, but possibly without). I'm mostly just hoping that Alive doesn't get burned from this whole thing and end up teamless because Fnatic doesn't want to pick up Alive and seem like the bad guys.
On January 19 2012 01:24 pStar wrote: Coach Lee got a skype convo off his computer.
He could get in huge trouble for that. Like, court trouble.
not if the computer belonged to TSL. When you use company-provided equipment, don't be thinking "this is my computer" because it isn't. It belongs to the company, not you. Therefore they can do as they see fit.
If it was a personal, home computer, then sure.
Actually, that's not so simple. There are computers that are there for company business (e.g. office PCs) and there are hand-outs that are nominally company property but are understood to be for personal use as well. Being the proprietor of the PC doesn't necessarily give the right to snoop into private files. Ownership is not enough there unless maybe in some country where either the legislators or the courts have decided that yeah, ownership gives you that right.
Also, a one-time intervention after hearing a tip is one thing. Somehow winding up with fresh logs is another. I do hope it wasn't a result of ongoing, real-time monitoring of Skype conversations... but that'd take a paranoid person to do, shouldn't be presuming that about Coach Lee, I guess. But he should explain how he got the logs.
***
As for exit clause/penalty, please note the difference. An exit clause is a termination fee. You pay, you can quit, fair deal and no penalty, just a fee for the ability to quit early. On the other hand, a penalty is stipulated as a penal fee for something that shouldn't happen (e.g. for late delivery, insufficient quality of goods, whatever—at least outside America and possibly other common law jurisdictions, where actual penalties are not allowed in contracts). They probably signed the contract under Korean law and it's not like non-Koreans can take educated guesses as to Korean civil law, we'd need a Korean lawyer. But the vocabulary used in the interview suggests a penalty, except that a player might well be using the word "penalty" in a colloquial sense. At any rate, a penalty for breach (where breach consists in cessation of performance) is not the same thing as a simple exit clause (the effect is the same or close to it but anyway).
On January 19 2012 04:11 babylon wrote: There was no breach of contract.
Quitting is, if your right to terminate is excluded in the contract. Merely talking but without actually quitting might actually end up not being a breach.
On January 19 2012 08:45 iky43210 wrote: Then it will come down what's in the contract. I doubt you get to keep much of your privacy when you join something like a team house
Not that this is any important at all. If Alive does not care or isn't mad, its quite obvious that either he doesn't care or he knew the contract allowed pc monitoring.
To me the interview reads like he does care - and so he should. If it were me I'd flip my shit.
Lee commits a serious breach of privacy. (unless there's something in team contract allowing him access which i can't even begin to fathom). Alive sought to break his own contract to get out of TSL. And Fnatic with blatant contract tampering.
This is just terrible from top to bottom. Poor #ESPORTS
On January 19 2012 03:52 Boonbag wrote: sounds like coach lee wanted to get max money from fnatic imo
This appears to me to be exactly right.
If Alive was to leave TSL and pay the fine. Everything would go smoothly per se Alive signing with fnatic but it appears coach Lee wanted to Barter Alives contract Possibly for more return Money; a good guess
On January 19 2012 08:12 gitarrojoe wrote: i dont like how the situation is handled for the player. its like the teams would decide where he plays, but aside from the contract its alives choice. To say Fnatic did something wrong because they made a good offer to alive is just wierd.
By contract, a player 'belongs' to a team. He is binded to the team, and there is no if's or but's about what the player gets to do. Everything he is allowed to do is stated in the contract, and then the team allows him what they feel, after the contractual liberties are provided. According to contract, a player is not allowed to speak to another team and talk about those kinds of issues.
It is thus, the job of an outside team who wants to pick up a player residing in a team with contract, to go up to the team that player resides in, and begin to discuss agreements in which both teams, plus the player will be happy and comfortable with. They turn into bodies of legislation, in which the well being of the player is decided. If, for example, Fnatic went up to TSL and said "hey we want to offer your player X amount of money, + stay in a team house, open access to Y amount of facilities, and Z opportunities" it is then up to the team who has the player in contract to decide if that is better for their player than what he is currently receiving. If the team wants to trade the player, then they will do so. If they don't want to trade the player, then they will not trade him. Once the contract is finished, it is the decision of both the player and the team to either renew the contract or not to. If the team wants to renew but the player does not, then the player chooses not to, and vice versa. Once the player is no longer under contract, he is a free agent and is allowed to roam and look for teams whenever he chooses.
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides.
Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed.
THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. Real sports organizations function the same way. This is the land of the big boys. People don't fuck around for any reason in which they so please. When people make mistakes, consequences are then enforced. Lee is trying to show the world that Fnatic showed unprofessional behavior, and they did. He's not saying that Fnatic breached aLive's contract for him, aLive did that on his own. You and everyone else needs to realize that this is a business, and business is thus taken into account.
you know, it sems to me coach lee gets butt hurt and takes things out of perspective. this is like the 3rd time i can think of coach lee insinuating drama like this
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides.
I seriously doubt any legislation except maybe the US one allows this kind of thing to go through. Example: You get a contract ready to sign sent to your place in a letter. You open it, read it out of couriosity. Have you now breached your contract? This kind of thing is probably not sustainable in employment/service contracts. You may enforce NDAs but that's pretty much where it ends in most countries (I'd be pretty curious about the Korean law on this).
Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed.
So when did their translator become staff? For that he'd have to have some sort of employment relationship with them, not just services he provides. Plus, without seeing the contract I can already tell you that most likely there was no breach and even if their could be, it's questionable whether it's in the actual contract. You have to be very specific on this shit or any lawyer will mess with you all he wants.
This is the land of the big boys.
Nope, this is TSL, faaaaar from the big boys in terms of capital, even more so from their cash flow.
Edit: I completely forgot about Lee breaching privacy to acquire that information, if he went on to file a lawsuit aLive could respond harshly. Better not fuck up, Lee?
This is just a situation where almost everyone is at fault. I hope alive does well in the gsl... But in his own admission, he was going to break his contract. And his reasons, unfortunately, are NOT valid, at least legally. Hence he has to pay. I have to wonder though, does his Coach have the right to invade his privacy by reading skype msgs? If not, that is really alarming to me. I hope better news comes...
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides.
I seriously doubt any legislation except maybe the US one allows this kind of thing to go through. Example: You get a contract ready to sign sent to your place in a letter. You open it, read it out of couriosity. Have you now breached your contract? This kind of thing is probably not sustainable in employment/service contracts. You may enforce NDAs but that's pretty much where it ends in most countries (I'd be pretty curious about the Korean law on this).
Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed.
So when did their translator become staff? For that he'd have to have some sort of employment relationship with them, not just services he provides. Plus, without seeing the contract I can already tell you that most likely there was no breach and even if their could be, it's questionable whether it's in the actual contract. You have to be very specific on this shit or any lawyer will mess with you all he wants.
Nope, this is TSL, faaaaar from the big boys in terms of capital, even more so from their cash flow.
Edit: I completely forgot about Lee breaching privacy to acquire that information, if he went on to file a lawsuit aLive could respond harshly. Better not fuck up, Lee?
lol You don't seem to be able to figure out the difference between Fnatic's actions and aLive's actions. Fnatic did something unprofessional. There are no laws against what Fnatic did, it was merely something that is not respectable in the eyes of Korean regularity. Foreign teams I'm sure can also agree as to why they see it was not very professional. As for aLive looking at an official document regarding his professional occupation, it would be standard procedure to hand the document off to Lee and not read it himself. In that case, Fnatic would receive a lot of negative attention, and Lee would then be required to tell aLive what Fnatic is offereing aLive.
The breach of contract is assuming aLive joins Fnatic. If he were to join Fnatic and sign contract with them/play with their team shirt/advertise them in any way/etcetc, then the contract would be breached and legal matters can be taken into place. Sorry my words were misleadingly provoking that the contract has already been breached. I was talking in terms of if he were to actually join Fnatic before his contract is up, which according to the information provided is very possible. Lee has pretty good experience in professional eSports management, and afaik he had lawyers write up their contracts. If you think he's stupid enough to allow players to leave his team at will even when they are contracted, then you are making a pretty harsh accusation against his image.
As for your final statement, that was too childish to even take seriously.
On January 19 2012 09:32 PhiliBiRD wrote: you know, it sems to me coach lee gets butt hurt and takes things out of perspective. this is like the 3rd time i can think of coach lee insinuating drama like this
On January 19 2012 07:36 GoBackToGo wrote: lol at coach lee printing out private conversations of one of his players. no wonder everyone wants to leave TSL
This. I said before that although Coach Lee's siuation with Puma was found out to be correct for his side of the story, you have to wonder why people are leaving TSL en masse. I don't care what lawyer drew up the contract, no contract should include the coaches ability to listen to player's private conversations.
So either the contract is shady, or what coach Lee did was 100x more unethical than aLive reaching out to foreign teams. Especially if it was only discussions, that makes aLive 100% free of charge and Coach Lee explaining himself for his actions.
Weird, Coach Lee said Alive was free to leave and he was already more or less gone, but when he learned that Alive was in contact with a team he overreacted like this? =/
On January 19 2012 08:12 gitarrojoe wrote: i dont like how the situation is handled for the player. its like the teams would decide where he plays, but aside from the contract its alives choice. To say Fnatic did something wrong because they made a good offer to alive is just wierd.
By contract, a player 'belongs' to a team. He is binded to the team, and there is no if's or but's about what the player gets to do. Everything he is allowed to do is stated in the contract, and then the team allows him what they feel, after the contractual liberties are provided. According to contract, a player is not allowed to speak to another team and talk about those kinds of issues.
It is thus, the job of an outside team who wants to pick up a player residing in a team with contract, to go up to the team that player resides in, and begin to discuss agreements in which both teams, plus the player will be happy and comfortable with. They turn into bodies of legislation, in which the well being of the player is decided. If, for example, Fnatic went up to TSL and said "hey we want to offer your player X amount of money, + stay in a team house, open access to Y amount of facilities, and Z opportunities" it is then up to the team who has the player in contract to decide if that is better for their player than what he is currently receiving. If the team wants to trade the player, then they will do so. If they don't want to trade the player, then they will not trade him. Once the contract is finished, it is the decision of both the player and the team to either renew the contract or not to. If the team wants to renew but the player does not, then the player chooses not to, and vice versa. Once the player is no longer under contract, he is a free agent and is allowed to roam and look for teams whenever he chooses.
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides.
Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed.
THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. Real sports organizations function the same way. This is the land of the big boys. People don't fuck around for any reason in which they so please. When people make mistakes, consequences are then enforced. Lee is trying to show the world that Fnatic showed unprofessional behavior, and they did. He's not saying that Fnatic breached aLive's contract for him, aLive did that on his own. You and everyone else needs to realize that this is a business, and business is thus taken into account.
Ignoring your problems with grammar and spelling (though that makes reading your post harder than it should be) I must question what you actually know about the real world you are shouting about in capital letters.
A player does not EVER belong to a team. Please read that sentence and know it for truth. His actions and his services might be owed to a team, he might also be restricted in what he can do and his duties to gain his wage might be set down in a contract. Whatever the case his basic human rights cannot be restricted by a contract, if it is supposed to stand up in a court of law. That includes the right to talk to people... His contract might forbid him from official negotiations (it likely does) without involving TSL in them, but that is the crux of this thread. aLive and fnatic say there were only informal talks between friends at the point Coach Lee went to the press.
Whatever might be written in the contracts they are written under a set of laws or codes. In the real world you are asking for those are twofold: the national law of the country and usually the rules of the Sport Assosciation in question. That might be NFL, FIFA, UEFA, MLB etc...
Notice what we do not have in SC2? A code of rules how things must be done between teams. One can try to draw analogues to other sports, but frankly they don't matter. The only things that matter to a judge would be the Korean laws, and the specific contract signed by aLive.
We have not read his contract (and frankly it's unlikely we ever will, it will almost certainly be kept secret), nor does anyone here have deep understanding of Korean buisness law. What i do know for certain is that the mythical Real World buisness!!!! you are asking for, does not exist for this discussion.
We can talk about how fnatic has not behaved properly or TSL or aLive or whoever, but that is all we can do. We can try to assign some kind of ethical blame we want to discuss ("they aren't doing buisness the way we want them to do it") but anything beyond that (including calls for legal action) is just grandstanding and hyperbole.
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides.
I seriously doubt any legislation except maybe the US one allows this kind of thing to go through. Example: You get a contract ready to sign sent to your place in a letter. You open it, read it out of couriosity. Have you now breached your contract? This kind of thing is probably not sustainable in employment/service contracts. You may enforce NDAs but that's pretty much where it ends in most countries (I'd be pretty curious about the Korean law on this).
Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed.
So when did their translator become staff? For that he'd have to have some sort of employment relationship with them, not just services he provides. Plus, without seeing the contract I can already tell you that most likely there was no breach and even if their could be, it's questionable whether it's in the actual contract. You have to be very specific on this shit or any lawyer will mess with you all he wants.
This is the land of the big boys.
Nope, this is TSL, faaaaar from the big boys in terms of capital, even more so from their cash flow.
Edit: I completely forgot about Lee breaching privacy to acquire that information, if he went on to file a lawsuit aLive could respond harshly. Better not fuck up, Lee?
lol You don't seem to be able to figure out the difference between Fnatic's actions and aLive's actions. Fnatic did something unprofessional. There are no laws against what Fnatic did, it was merely something that is not respectable in the eyes of Korean regularity. Foreign teams I'm sure can also agree as to why they see it was not very professional. As for aLive looking at an official document regarding his professional occupation, it would be standard procedure to hand the document off to Lee and not read it himself. In that case, Fnatic would receive a lot of negative attention, and Lee would then be required to tell aLive what Fnatic is offereing aLive.
The breach of contract is assuming aLive joins Fnatic. If he were to join Fnatic and sign contract with them/play with their team shirt/advertise them in any way/etcetc, then the contract would be breached and legal matters can be taken into place. Sorry my words were misleadingly provoking that the contract has already been breached. I was talking in terms of if he were to actually join Fnatic before his contract is up, which according to the information provided is very possible. Lee has pretty good experience in professional eSports management, and afaik he had lawyers write up their contracts. If you think he's stupid enough to allow players to leave his team at will even when they are contracted, then you are making a pretty harsh accusation against his image.
As for your final statement, that was too childish to even take seriously.
Oh I understand who did what but the point is, there's no breach happening right now and even if he should join, claiming a breach would be difficult given the circumstances. Obviously, the way things should have gone would be between the teams and their management but this isn't really the issue here. I also highly doubt Lee has water proof contracts, even if he has so much experience, crafting a contract which covers a situation like this clearly and expressively is difficult. No, lawyers drawing them up does not make them water proof. Also, there's no point to him being stupid, he has to allow people to leave occupation on fair notice. I know about non compete clauses but these are not always deemed reasonable (example: it's the only profession you know and you don't have enough money to retire).
As for my final statement, there's quite a few players who apparently couldn't stand TSL any longer than necessary, you think he only went through aLive's stuff? There's a pretty high chance he just routinely checks up on this kind of thing if he actually picked this up which means there'd be quite a few people who might want to join in if he tries to bully his way to some money, after all it's between a friend and the coach who might very well be the reason they left. I would love some insight on SK law though, in some countries you'd automatically face prosecution for anything illegal you did to acquire the evidence you base your claim on.
Lol Coach Lee probably has something to do with TSL losing so much talent over the past few months. Won't be surprised if Polt and Revival leaves as well.
Honestly kind of surprised how much shit TSL coach is getting. Fnatic should have contacted the coaching staff first instead of going right to a player because then this shit happens. No doubt this will make other teams more careful about watching their players when big teams like Fnatic will obviously go to the players first, pretty unprofessional.
I'm unsure how he could come off better by releasing a personal statement, but boy, does aLive come across as respectful and mature. Huge tonne of respect gained for him.
Unless his contract with TSL expressly forbids it, there's nothing wrong with aLive talking to Fnatic or other teams, and I don't know a single person naive enough to sign a contract with that sort of stipulation.
Since it seems there was the early termination fee included in the contract details, there's nothing wrong with ending his membership on his own terms either, just as team management can drop a player at any time.
At most, if they wanted to prevent someone from joining another team for a period of time after parting, they'd have to put a paid non-compete clause in the contract.
as the coach i would be pissed if i welcomed fnatic into the house in hopes of working on a partnership, and then finding out that they have been trying to recruit alive behind closed doors
Hearing things like Coach Lee printing out Alive's Skype convo on his own private computer is pretty shady. Even if Alive left his Skype and computer open that really crosses the line. I can't imagine being able to practice comfortably in an atmosphere where stuff like that would happen. If only we could talk to one of the flies on the wall of the TSL house...
It seems like TSL is falling apart as a team, and it also seems like it is in some small part due to poor management or bad circumstances. It's not unlikely that the franchise will end altogether within the next 6 months to year, or it will be reduced to a team full of B - list Koreans willing to sign for scraps on the table.
Unless his contract with TSL expressly forbids it, there's nothing wrong with aLive talking to Fnatic or other teams, and I don't know a single person naive enough to sign a contract with that sort of stipulation.
Since it seems there was the early termination fee included in the contract details, there's nothing wrong with ending his membership on his own terms either, just as team management can drop a player at any time.
At most, if they wanted to prevent someone from joining another team for a period of time after parting, they'd have to put a paid non-compete clause in the contract.
I was just wondering same excact thing. TSL aLive never signed a new contract, which would basically means he just talked to someone about such possibility. That would definietly count as private conversation. The thing I don't get the most on TSL's managment part is that aLive made mistake but Coach Lee blows stuff to heavens size !!! I have no idea how law works in korea but single prove of aLive not sticking to a contract was illegaly obtained from his personal computer. Which would really give huge basics for TSL's player to sue coaches ass first . ! For what is worth I wish there was a great korean lawyer here who could free aLive's butt out of this akward situation and let this man be and let him do what he does so good !!
Dunno why everyone's argument of: "IT'S A CONTRACT" is valid in any sense. There's a penalty for doing so and he reiterated he would pay that price for breaching it.. end of story. Additionally is there a clause in the contract that states aLive may not speak to other organizations without TSL's acknowledgment? Clearly the question that should be asked is wth is going on in TSL that made aLive want to pay $8700 to get out of there
I don't know how in eSports, but in football/soccer, when your contract is finishing (if less than 6 months left), you can talk to other potential employers. You don't have to be left out on the streets without job to start talking to others.
So if I understand correctly and if aLive talked to Fnatic just recently, I don't see a problem with this. What does TSL expect? He made it clear to them he is not extending his contract and he is leaving. Does he have to wait until he is out, homeless (so to speak)? Ridiculous.
So the coach just looks up all the conversations of his players? If the players want something known, they would tell you, snooping through private logs is not professional/acceptable in any way.
Hopefully Coach Lee get faulted for this, especially if they were supposed to release information on good terms. (It is strike 2 for him too, so it's not like this is an isolated incident, must say wonders about his ability to "coach")
On January 19 2012 01:47 DreamOen wrote: Some ppl forgett, thay many of them are still childs, and they never worked before, they sacrificed their teenage era in pro to starcraft, u cant expect them to make the right decisions all the time.
This.
I remember somebody in the BW forums wrote that in all the players interviews of BW Proleague pros, the young pros use very rudimentary vocabulary. Iloveoov was an exception in that he actually knew some of the more eloquent / sophisticated vocab / manners of speech, so he came across as a very educated man. Most of them young machines in BW gave up their teenage-hood to game... thus giving up an entire vocab bank of Hanja-related words which Koreans learn in Highschool
If I were on TSL I'd be really creeped out by Coach Lee potentially reading my skype convos. That's a nono in my book. But poor form alive for renegging on your contract. I don't think anyone is coming out of this smelling of roses.
Coach Lee also said when Clide and JYP hyung left that if I was still unhappy, I could leave too. I was going to leave at that time but because of personal issues, I said I would stay in the team a bit longer, but just physically, not as an active teammate. I thought that Coach Lee had accepted it at the time but I guess that wasn’t the case.
According to aLive himself, the coach proposed him to leave the team, and aLive said he intented to do so. So why is Lee acting surprised that aLive is looking for another team ?
On team-aaa an eSahara manager stated that aLive also contacted them, so if aLive initiated the negociations with fnatic too I really don't understand how fnatic interfered with anything.
On January 19 2012 08:12 gitarrojoe wrote: i dont like how the situation is handled for the player. its like the teams would decide where he plays, but aside from the contract its alives choice. To say Fnatic did something wrong because they made a good offer to alive is just wierd.
By contract, a player 'belongs' to a team. He is binded to the team, and there is no if's or but's about what the player gets to do. Everything he is allowed to do is stated in the contract, and then the team allows him what they feel, after the contractual liberties are provided. According to contract, a player is not allowed to speak to another team and talk about those kinds of issues.
It is thus, the job of an outside team who wants to pick up a player residing in a team with contract, to go up to the team that player resides in, and begin to discuss agreements in which both teams, plus the player will be happy and comfortable with. They turn into bodies of legislation, in which the well being of the player is decided. If, for example, Fnatic went up to TSL and said "hey we want to offer your player X amount of money, + stay in a team house, open access to Y amount of facilities, and Z opportunities" it is then up to the team who has the player in contract to decide if that is better for their player than what he is currently receiving. If the team wants to trade the player, then they will do so. If they don't want to trade the player, then they will not trade him. Once the contract is finished, it is the decision of both the player and the team to either renew the contract or not to. If the team wants to renew but the player does not, then the player chooses not to, and vice versa. Once the player is no longer under contract, he is a free agent and is allowed to roam and look for teams whenever he chooses.
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides.
Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed.
THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. Real sports organizations function the same way. This is the land of the big boys. People don't fuck around for any reason in which they so please. When people make mistakes, consequences are then enforced. Lee is trying to show the world that Fnatic showed unprofessional behavior, and they did. He's not saying that Fnatic breached aLive's contract for him, aLive did that on his own. You and everyone else needs to realize that this is a business, and business is thus taken into account.
Nobody can sign away their rights to the extent that they 'belong' to someone else. This is true in most of the world, including the US - indentured servitude is generally illegal. You can put a lot of things in a contract, but that doesn't mean they will hold up in court. Look at non-compete clauses for an example - employers would love to put large non-compete clauses in contracts, because that makes the labour market illiquid and depresses salaries. In many places, however, even if a contract contains such a clause it won't actually be enforceable, or will be heavily limited in length and scope. aLive leaving early is a clear breach of contract, and no doubt Lee will enact the penalty clause for that. Simply talking to other teams is unlikely to be an enforceable item in a contract.
In your scenario, every time a player wants to switch teams and the coach doesn't want to let him (and thus refuses offers from other teams), the player has to risk quitting before even knowing if other teams want them. This is completely crazy - it allows a coach to hold on to a player they're underpaying or treating poorly just because the player can't work out their fair market value. In what other profession do you have to quit before you can look for a new job? I know I find a new job before I quit my current one, why should it be different for SC2 players, who already have to endure cramped, unpleasant conditions and a very low likelihood of making any real cash?
Seems to me that aLive is being to harsh on himself... IMO coach Lee is equally to blame, as he didn't talk to aLive first before right away talking with fnatic – seems disrespectful to the player.
Lee already overreacted when EG talked a little to Puma. It's not like Puma or aLive sat down for a business meeting and discussed anything about contracts with official representatives of the respective teams.
Weird how problems like this only arise with TSL... Now drama is happening with Heart too... Then the post from Rekrul on how Lee behaved in the early days of SC2... Seems like a weird team/coach to me.
i really dont get what alive did wrong... i dont even get what he's apologizing for
didnt he plan to stay on the team until he could get picked up by Fnatic? sounded like it?
isn't it none of the coaches business which team alive plans to go to after he's done with TSL? it sounds like he was talking to the other team, which should be no problem at all. Is it specifically stated that transferring after a contract runs out can't be discussed before it actually does? that'd be nonsense, and i doubt it could stand before the law (maybe korean).
edit: the problem about alive leaving the team or alive this and that has got nothing to do with Fnatic in my eyes. and especially for underaged players who aren't happy with were they live, more room for decisions should be made.
edit2: Its really shocking to see how many people dont give a damn about players rights or even human rights in this thread. i'm dissapointed
Whats wrong with coach lee printing something off the computer? I assume that aLive was dumb enough to use a team owned computer and with that the team has the right to view everything that happens on that computer. It's aLIve's fault for not deleting the history on the computer after he was done.
Contracts need to have some meaning, if his contract was till July he should be banned from compeating in any event and for any other team till at least July and that would be on top of the compensation he owes TSL.
On January 20 2012 03:09 Stonedviper wrote: Whats wrong with coach lee printing something off the computer? I assume that aLive was dumb enough to use a team owned computer and with that the team has the right to view everything that happens on that computer. It's aLIve's fault for not deleting the history on the computer after he was done.
No. It does not matter who owns the computer at all.
On a personal level, it is a massive invasion of someone's privacy to look at their personal chat logs. On a legal level, which if you had bothered to read more than the OP you would know that relevant SK laws on the issue have been posted earlier in the thread many times, if Coach Lee did not have permission to view alive's personal chat logs, even if Coach Lee owned the computer it was stored on, alive can take legal action against Coach Lee.
On January 20 2012 00:27 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: i really dont get what alive did wrong... i dont even get what he's apologizing for
didnt he plan to stay on the team until he could get picked up by Fnatic? sounded like it?
isn't it none of the coaches business which team alive plans to go to after he's done with TSL? it sounds like he was talking to the other team, which should be no problem at all. Is it specifically stated that transferring after a contract runs out can't be discussed before it actually does? that'd be nonsense, and i doubt it could stand before the law (maybe korean).
edit: the problem about alive leaving the team or alive this and that has got nothing to do with Fnatic in my eyes. and especially for underaged players who aren't happy with were they live, more room for decisions should be made.
edit2: Its really shocking to see how many people dont give a damn about players rights or even human rights in this thread. i'm dissapointed
This isn't about "player rights" right now. Just looking at facts, we have this. 1. Alive left TSL. 2. Alive was contracted to TSL.
While Alive is under that contract, he shouldn't just leave the team like that. I agree that because of this, there is not as much involvement with Fanatic besides that Alive only left TSL because he hopes to be picked up by Fanatic. There is no real fault on anyone here but Alive for acting a bit recklessly in his situation.
He had a copy of a private text off the skype log? and this guy dont ask why? I dont know about korean laws, but in germany he could 1) cancel the contract with no delay because of this 2) go to the police because its a crime to copy this data.
Why would lee show him, that he stolen private data, in the first place? i dont get this story.
On January 20 2012 03:09 Stonedviper wrote: Whats wrong with coach lee printing something off the computer? I assume that aLive was dumb enough to use a team owned computer and with that the team has the right to view everything that happens on that computer. It's aLIve's fault for not deleting the history on the computer after he was done.
Contracts need to have some meaning, if his contract was till July he should be banned from compeating in any event and for any other team till at least July and that would be on top of the compensation he owes TSL.
You sir have a seriously flawed logic. Do you also think that, for example. the owner of a washroom in a mall, has the right to view whatever's going on inside the washroom since he/she owns it? Because this is what yhou are insinuating.
On January 20 2012 03:09 Stonedviper wrote: Whats wrong with coach lee printing something off the computer? I assume that aLive was dumb enough to use a team owned computer and with that the team has the right to view everything that happens on that computer. It's aLIve's fault for not deleting the history on the computer after he was done.
Contracts need to have some meaning, if his contract was till July he should be banned from compeating in any event and for any other team till at least July and that would be on top of the compensation he owes TSL.
You sir have a seriously flawed logic. Do you also think that, for example. the owner of a washroom in a mall, has the right to view whatever's going on inside the washroom since he/she owns it? Because this is what yhou are insinuating.
The logic is more flawed than that and I'm quite sure several people brought the basic things already. For example that you don't have to break the law to be an ass. And that the privacy norms are probably set higher in team houses since players in team houses tend to live in them.
<3 the quote. I think aLive is a classy dude. I'm also disliking Coach Lee by the minute. Lee should drop it and stop snooping Skype chats, I do believe that's illegal in Korea, hopefully this'll be done soon enough for aLive to focus on the pewpew and a bit less on the QQ.
I don't understand why players can't talk to other teams, managers, or translators. If they want to talk about future contracts, or their options, why shouldn't they be able to? The contract breach is absolutely a problem, but not the conversation. Even with Puma, who cares if a team contacted him? These players have the right to negotiate with whoever they please, their coach isn't their keeper or parent.
On January 20 2012 05:55 dgwow wrote: Did everyone read the article by Rekrul about Coach Lee? Seems this issue should be moot now because of that. Blame Lee for EVERYTHING!
If he's under contract, that story while horrifying, is very irrelevant to the law.
I hope this gets cleared up quickly. While all the eDrama is exciting and fun to read at work, it's probably bad for the community. Hope it resolves with everybody happy.
All I can say is, it sucks to be Puma and EG for taking the brunt of the first "wolf" cry.
I didn't think much of Coach Lee back then, and now I have absolutely no respect for him now. As much as I hear about Korean "respect", and their societal attitudes being so different, it sounds like every country has their tyrannical bosses.
Best of luck to aLive, and good luck to you with Fnatic, where I hope you get the respect you deserve.
It is also important to note that even if Coach Lee is a complicit to the aLive/Fnatic situation arising(which is quite likely given the information at hand) , it does not completely clear them of any possible faults from them either. Two wrongs just don't make a right.
On January 20 2012 05:55 dgwow wrote: Did everyone read the article by Rekrul about Coach Lee? Seems this issue should be moot now because of that. Blame Lee for EVERYTHING!
If he's under contract, that story while horrifying, is very irrelevant to the law.
Have you seen the contract? I haven't, obviously, and I don't think you have. However, from what aLive says in his interview, it sounds like there's a release clause.
Because this is still concerns a contract, talks of a fee of breach of contract can’t be avoided. Is there a clause concerning this in the contract?
There is. I think that’s why he means to get the penalty fee from me.
If you do have to pay a penalty fee, how much would that sum be?
I believe it is around 10,000,000 won.
Did Fnatic say they would pay for that penalty fee?
I’m not exactly sure but I believe they said they would announce the penalty fee as the transfer fee.
A contract is still a contract though.
It’s because I didn’t think it was good to stay even after thinking about it a lot that I decided to leave. Even if I have to use my own money I said I would pay the fee for breach of contract.
The way he talks about paying a preset fee for breach of contract makes it sound like a release clause, NOT a penalty for breaking his contract. That would mean he's not in violation of the law at all.
Again, of course, I have absolutely zero actual inside information or anything like that. I'm just guessing, but that makes me identical to nearly everyone else who's posted on this topic.
On January 20 2012 03:09 Stonedviper wrote: Whats wrong with coach lee printing something off the computer? I assume that aLive was dumb enough to use a team owned computer and with that the team has the right to view everything that happens on that computer. It's aLIve's fault for not deleting the history on the computer after he was done.
Contracts need to have some meaning, if his contract was till July he should be banned from compeating in any event and for any other team till at least July and that would be on top of the compensation he owes TSL.
You sir have a seriously flawed logic. Do you also think that, for example. the owner of a washroom in a mall, has the right to view whatever's going on inside the washroom since he/she owns it? Because this is what yhou are insinuating.
This analogy is inaccurate. Businesses do have the right to control what they own to an extent and monitor their employee's behavior. A better analogy would be logging users who use Outlook for personal reasons instead of for business. Of course there will be a copy for the business to see your personal stuff (it's not to catch people's personal business, it is to monitor their business transaction to ensure Quality Control over communication). That's why employers tell you not to do that shit at work (not because it's bad for resources).
On January 20 2012 00:27 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: i really dont get what alive did wrong... i dont even get what he's apologizing for
didnt he plan to stay on the team until he could get picked up by Fnatic? sounded like it?
isn't it none of the coaches business which team alive plans to go to after he's done with TSL? it sounds like he was talking to the other team, which should be no problem at all. Is it specifically stated that transferring after a contract runs out can't be discussed before it actually does? that'd be nonsense, and i doubt it could stand before the law (maybe korean).
edit: the problem about alive leaving the team or alive this and that has got nothing to do with Fnatic in my eyes. and especially for underaged players who aren't happy with were they live, more room for decisions should be made.
edit2: Its really shocking to see how many people dont give a damn about players rights or even human rights in this thread. i'm dissapointed
This isn't about "player rights" right now. Just looking at facts, we have this. 1. Alive left TSL. 2. Alive was contracted to TSL.
While Alive is under that contract, he shouldn't just leave the team like that. I agree that because of this, there is not as much involvement with Fanatic besides that Alive only left TSL because he hopes to be picked up by Fanatic. There is no real fault on anyone here but Alive for acting a bit recklessly in his situation.
Since this whole issue arises out of alive not being able to choose freely, or to even cancel his contract (even willing to pay the necessary money) without being shitstormed by Coach Lee, it is somehow about player rights. Lee does not have the right to go through alive's private stuff, except if the contract somehow makes him alives "legal guardian" which i doubt (just checked, he's 18 already, dunno what the maturity age in korea is). recording or checking private conversations (even if he would've talked to officials from Fnatic) is not alowed.
I agree, alive shouldn't have just quit the team like that, but if he's willing to pay for it, its not a mistake he has to apologize for.
so to recapture: i dont think Fnatic is at fault in any way. if they are interested of picking up a player, they can ask wether that player is interested before talking to the coach. Why shouldn't they be allowed? Alive should've not signed the contract at all. Leaving should not be punishable except for fees if you cancel the contract too early. Even if it is a 1 or more year contract, there needs to be a clause to cancel the contract earlier, within several months notice. I do not understand Lee. If all his actions are legal and respected in korea, south korea is not as advanced as i thought of it before. maybe i should do more research.
@the poster above: at least on germany, camera surveillance of employees is NOT permitted. any form of "surveillance" is not.
So, I laid some theorycraft in the previous thread... and I am going to embellish a bit here on that foundation. Keep in mind this is going only by factual points (ie, aLive wanted to leave, and said he has wanted to for some time now; Fnatic's translator talked to aLive; aLive talked to the translator and then Fnatic management; Coach Lee learned of it before aLive went to Coach Lee (which he states he was going to do). Everything else is general psychological profiling psychobabble and more of a certain razor style.)
So, originally, I had suggested that aLive talked to the translator, Coach Lee found out, and reacted poorly before there was a chance to resolve the issue, possibly because past events may have left Lee on the somewhat paranoid side where foreign teams and Korean players are concerned. Reasonable thought process - the contracts came about after Puma went to EG. Now, I'm revising, revisiting, and restructuring for additional factual points.
Soooo... here goes. aLive has been unhappy with TSL for awhile. Probably not solely due to money, from the general gist of his comments. He doesn't want to stay. He tells Coach Lee this back when Clyde and Sung left that he wants to leave. Jyp also wants to leave. (He talks about having a good offer at that time, but doesn't say from whom.) aLive is convinced to stay reluctantly with TSL, and that stays the status quo for a little bit. (Why? Maybe because aLive is less assertive in wanting to go, maybe because he doesn't want to leave TSL with only Polt as a first-rank name. Who knows?) His friend, who happens to also be a Fnatic translator, at some point wind up talking about how aLive is unhappy with TSL, maybe talk about how another team (like Fnatic) operates. Since aLive already has talked with his friend the translator, he wants to talk to Fnatic management. He sees that maybe he can find a way out of a place he doesn't want to be in (for whatever reason). After that conversation, aLive feels pretty confident that he has found his way to leave TSL without an extremely negative impact to himself - think of it as not telling your boss that you're interviewing for another job. That is also quite common in the business world, because it can severely hurt your career if you prematurely approach the subject. (Think of this... do you tell your boss that you can't stand working there BEFORE you have a way out that you feel is realistically possible? I don't, it would at minimum harm morale. Especially if they already know I'm unhappy.) So, aLive is feeling okay, and preparing himself to talk to Coach Lee. Unfortunately, Coach Lee becomes aware of it by reading the Skype logs (however he got them, legality of which is not something I'm going to address) and instead has a chat with aLive before aLive has a handle on how to approach Coach Lee. The psychodynamics of that discussion could possibly be described as "tense" - Coach Lee hurt and possibly paranoid, while aLive knows he hasn't handled it well because of the emotions involved. At the end of the discussion, aLive is left with an impression that things have been worked out well enough, and that Coach Lee understands at least some of what is going on. At least enough for Coach Lee to feel that things like transfer fees are taken care of. Unrelated to this, yes Fnatic was pursuing a partnership with TSL. At some point in the background, Fnatic decided (for financial reasons, they say) to abandon their partnership inquiries with TSL. Coach Lee decides that 1 + 1 = 3(!) and goes public with what he is convinced must be the real case. Later, he backs away from this slightly, because after the initial emotional impact, he realizes that it may be not entirely the truth. aLive is aware of how things have mishandled, and freely admits it as well as showing willingness to pay the penalty for how things have turned out. aLive knows he could have done it better, but then he also indicated his general unhappiness at TSL - which may have been contributing to how things all set up. And Coach Lee (for good or bad) seems to be genuinely passionate about his team, and may not have been thinking clearly either. Fnatic, possibly because of all the myriad factors involved, didn't want to guarantee anything and their discussion with aLive may have left aLive to handle the aspects in Korea because he would have a much better handle (culturally and as a member of TSL) to talk to Coach Lee without possible misunderstandings from language and cultural issues. So when it all hits the fan, Fnatic (which may well have offered to pick up aLive if he became available, at aLive's request) publically states all that they did while keeping a distance from events.
No one is really being "evil" (except of course for EG, because hey it's in their name), there was a lot of miscommunication and potential "padding" to avoid sharp corners and hurt feelings by the two main principles, and the SC2 community already has their pitchforks and torches ready to jump on any passing interpretation. People that keep saying "let's wait for the facts" are missing that we already have the most salient facts available, and that we will likely never know the actual events with any certainty. (Already we have people saying "I was there and saw X". However, that's not facts. That's hearsay. And witness testimony is great in court but still not necessarily factual.) Unless maybe someone has a time machine and a camcorder...
Sorry for wall of text, I just kindof kept typing as I thought... o.O
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
this is quite sad, aLive was clearly on a contract. fnatic should have discussed with coach Lee about a player transfer. that would have been the correct approach
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
I believe you can break the contract you will just have to pay the fee associated with that as described in the contract. If teams will put this into the contract (which I think I read that he did pay the fee) then there isn't a problem legally. If there is no legal problem I do not see the problem.
If alive is going to pay the fee, then what can you really do? He's under the contract, he's going to pay his fee, so whats up?
The only thing I see is that the contract restricted Alive from tlaking to other management, which is still in the works.
I thought Lee's team was done in the last time he created a shitstorm. But TSL was still there in the scene. IMO, this will create even worse press for TSL and he'll really be done in this time...
Sure, tampering with another team player is bad etiquette, and Alive was taken by money offered by Fnatic... but Alive is also risking so much by doing this. It's his decision, and 8000 is a lot to pay for a progamer. Lee needs to raise his fee or pay his players more to secure them. It's only his fault for bad mangement. It's no loophole if you have a huge ass fee to pay.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
Sorry for being unclear. The logic check was about the lack of a problem to solve.
the problem is pretend fnatic and tsl are google and microsoft.
google comes along and tries to play buddy buddy/partnership up with microsoft. things seem to be going well until you (the owner of microsoft) hear rumors of google trying to recruit your chief financial officer while trying to form the partnership. that's definitely a level of trust and respect that was broken. if i was the coach of tsl, i'd be pretty pissed too.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
Technically, SC2 teams are not even remotely close to NHL/NFL/FIFA/NBA/etc. If anything, they may be closer to Olympic gymnastics teams - where the team provides you with training and support, and take some of the credit, but you don't hear them saying "Damn, US Gymnastics (or Figure Skating, Ice Dancing, whatever) are amazing!" You're more likely to hear "YEAH MARY LOU! USA USA!" The parameters of professional SC2 make the individual players far more visible and important than the team. (How many people follow the player from team to team? Saying you like EG because Jyp or Huk is on it but you liked Liquid or TSL before that for the same reason is nothing like saying "I liked Clemens on the Sox, but I hated him on the Rangers squad.") Also, the nature of the majority of tourneys/matches are individual - the big money is in individual tournaments, and even team tournaments rely on individuals playing in individual matches. (Team 2v2, 4v4 leagues... that would be interesting but messy.)
I've said it before... the current eSports culture in SC2 might be better compared to Golf or Tennis, but with the additional team layer between players and sponsors. Teams are important, don't get me wrong... they provide combined services of training, support, and agency of the players to sponsors, as well as minor things like travel. But we don't like a player because he's a solid, okay guy on a team we love's B-squad. (Speaking in very general terms - some superfans might.) But even as a casual fan of the Patriots (flamebait) in the NFL, I can still tell you the names of non-main squad players and be a fan for them because of their good work for the Pats. Nothing flashy, maybe, but they help Tom Brady and the Gronk do their thing.
On January 21 2012 05:24 akalarry wrote: the problem is pretend fnatic and tsl are google and microsoft.
google comes along and tries to play buddy buddy/partnership up with microsoft. things seem to be going well until you (the owner of microsoft) hear rumors of google trying to recruit your chief financial officer while trying to form the partnership. that's definitely a level of trust and respect that was broken. if i was the coach of tsl, i'd be pretty pissed too.
Not remotely. There is no trust between two corporations, no matter how close they may get. They may cooperate on a common project, but they are sharpening their knives for the backstabbing to come later. Check with any of the corporate groups that work together for a "standard" in electronics, then will quickly bust out the patents to sue you into the ground if you are doing something that threatens them.
Polt must feel bad about having left Prime for TSL... Spying on your own players, threaten them through an article on the internet and still be able to look at yourself in the mirror? I thought IdrA was the most arrogant person in the professional SC2 scene but coach Lee proved me wrong. I guess we can call TSL a team of no-names now except for Revival and Polt. Losing 8 players (Rain, JYP, FruitDealer, Killer, Trickster, Clide, Heart and now aLive) in less than a year is pretty bad.
On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote: From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
I agree 100%. Will be interesting to see what happens after this.
So there's no blame on coach lee and him going on aLive's skype an reading info that wasnt his to read, printing it off, and invading his privacy? I think some people need to reevaluate their morality here cause thats far more wrong then what aLive did. An atleast aLive ownes up to his part in it unlike coach lee who is nothing more the a hypocritical ass always pretending to be the victim. If he wants to cry fowl on poaching then maybe he himself shouldnt have done it before either cause he's no room to do so.
On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote: This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
On January 20 2012 00:27 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: i really dont get what alive did wrong... i dont even get what he's apologizing for
didnt he plan to stay on the team until he could get picked up by Fnatic? sounded like it?
isn't it none of the coaches business which team alive plans to go to after he's done with TSL? it sounds like he was talking to the other team, which should be no problem at all. Is it specifically stated that transferring after a contract runs out can't be discussed before it actually does? that'd be nonsense, and i doubt it could stand before the law (maybe korean).
edit: the problem about alive leaving the team or alive this and that has got nothing to do with Fnatic in my eyes. and especially for underaged players who aren't happy with were they live, more room for decisions should be made.
edit2: Its really shocking to see how many people dont give a damn about players rights or even human rights in this thread. i'm dissapointed
This isn't about "player rights" right now. Just looking at facts, we have this. 1. Alive left TSL. 2. Alive was contracted to TSL.
While Alive is under that contract, he shouldn't just leave the team like that. I agree that because of this, there is not as much involvement with Fanatic besides that Alive only left TSL because he hopes to be picked up by Fanatic. There is no real fault on anyone here but Alive for acting a bit recklessly in his situation.
Since this whole issue arises out of alive not being able to choose freely, or to even cancel his contract (even willing to pay the necessary money) without being shitstormed by Coach Lee, it is somehow about player rights. Lee does not have the right to go through alive's private stuff, except if the contract somehow makes him alives "legal guardian" which i doubt (just checked, he's 18 already, dunno what the maturity age in korea is). recording or checking private conversations (even if he would've talked to officials from Fnatic) is not alowed.
I agree, alive shouldn't have just quit the team like that, but if he's willing to pay for it, its not a mistake he has to apologize for.
so to recapture: i dont think Fnatic is at fault in any way. if they are interested of picking up a player, they can ask wether that player is interested before talking to the coach. Why shouldn't they be allowed? Alive should've not signed the contract at all. Leaving should not be punishable except for fees if you cancel the contract too early. Even if it is a 1 or more year contract, there needs to be a clause to cancel the contract earlier, within several months notice. I do not understand Lee. If all his actions are legal and respected in korea, south korea is not as advanced as i thought of it before. maybe i should do more research.
@the poster above: at least on germany, camera surveillance of employees is NOT permitted. any form of "surveillance" is not.
Too bad that we're talking about South Korea instead of Germany and that Germany's laws about surveillance are completely irrelevant. Alive knew what he did was ethically wrong and at least he's coming forth to admit that he was wrong. Coach Lee probably would have let him transfer anyway if they talked first. Even talking the player first doesn't sound that bad. However, when you take into account that Alive planned to use the underhanded way of leaving his original team then joining another team avoiding his contract completely, there's not much you can do except say that Alive was in the wrong.
Not saying that Alive is a bad person, just not able to judge things accurately yet.
On January 21 2012 08:21 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Neo7, doesn't the wording of his interview suggest he has a legitimate release clause? That's how it sounds to me.
But still, I knew that I had fault in this so I acknowledged those parts and I asked for his understanding and apologized.
On January 21 2012 08:21 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Neo7, doesn't the wording of his interview suggest he has a legitimate release clause? That's how it sounds to me.
But still, I knew that I had fault in this so I acknowledged those parts and I asked for his understanding and apologized.
He admits it himself.
He acknowledges fault for not speaking to him straight away, I guess, but it's hardly underhanded to exercise a clause written into your contract.
In fact, specifically:
What are the specific parts that you think you did wrong?
Getting in touch with Fnatic without first talking to Coach Lee was my wrongdoing.
So that's the fault he's acknowledging, not exercising a release clause (if he has one) or otherwise ending his contract.
Alive's biggest mistake was staying with TSL when he was offered to be released from his contract. He talks about clear distaste, especially after Killer/clide/jyp left but he decides to stay as an inactive member.. sounds like he didn't think things through.
However, I dont fault him for talking with fnatic first. Until we get player agents, thats the way it has to be.
Now that I see that Rekrul's second/correction thread is also closed, it became all mess for me.
All this departure of Puma saga, then Tester and FD leaving saga, and now this saga still remain quite murky. I'd love to hear the final versions of events from both sides without some BS announcements/statements/apologies.
I mean come on, Rekrul writing a pretty damning post and after several hours writing "Sorry Coach Lee" sounds ridiculous. Nobody believes that, not Coach Lee, not fans on here and I don't even think Rekrul believes himself. This story, the same case.
In professional sports, there are leaks to fans and media about certain events in teams. Here, even such leaks are so contradicting.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This is the most concering part of the thread in my eyes.
I would very much like to know how he had a printed version of aLives personal and private conversation logs from skype.
As far as i am aware coach lee has broken the law with this hasn't he? (assuming he personally went onto alives PC and printed it out himself)
On January 22 2012 00:00 Excludos wrote: I'm having trouble sympathizing with Coach Lee after the thousands of dramas and shitstorms he's been in since sc2 release.
I'm having trouble sympathizing with Coach Lee when he is clearly going through all his player's chat logs.
On January 19 2012 07:44 DMKraft wrote: You can't go through coaches without at least gauging interest from a player, it wouldn't make sense. Poaching team "Hey Coach, I want to have X player on my team" Coach of player"Is he interested in changing teams?" Poaching team "Dunno."
Well in that case, the "poaching" team should ask to speak to the player of course with the coach as a middle man, then ask if he's interested in a better offer.
At least that's how I assume Evil Geniuses acquired HuK anyway (something which the press release showed as probably the most ethical player trade in ESPORTS showing how EG spoke to Nazgul first, then spoke to HuK then gave a better bid towards HuK and bought the remainder of his contract in an ethical way. They did not approach HuK in secret and they did not "bait" him with a player contract held on a fishing hook). However, the issue is that EG and Fnatic spoke to PuMa and aLive respectively without first contacting Coach Lee about a potential bid. That's why Coach Lee seems to be pissed off.
Looking over player's chat logs though? Paranoid much?
My personal opinion is that this whole situation snowballed out of irresponsible reporting. Coach Lee knows his team is dying, was perfectly aware that aLive was intending to leave, yet still releases a statement that could drastically affect aLive's career.
That isn't to say that nobody else is at fault, however Coach Lee turned a situation from sad, to bad, to bitter. Not only is he slowly destroying TSL's image, but the image of his players as well.
If Fanatic doesn't pay the fee, I will be sorely disappointed in them as well.
On January 29 2012 12:19 SC2NeCro wrote: My question is why hasn't he been signed by a team yet? He's been teamless for a little while now and he's a very, very good player.
I personally feel it is somewhat of a PR risk. It is still unclear what happened and if he were to be signed and later exposed of nefarious actions, it could be an issue for a team and effect the perceived value of the player. Almost no team looks at skill alone to justify signing a player. It could also be a high return risk, say for example he is desperate for a team and would sign for lower terms than he would without this fiasco, and is later cleared of all suspicion, the team that signed him in bad times could gain greater reward. A lot of it comes down to what Alive wants himself. Maybe he doesn't want to get distracted with drama or paperwork or regulations or whatever other burdens come with signing on to a new team, while on an amazing GSL run and just wants to practice and perform the best he can.
All 100% speculation and pretty irrelevant. Not even sure why I'm typing this up...
Probably because of the trouble with TSL and fnatic. I guess it takes a while to finish if Lee really intend to sue him for the breach of contract. I don't think a lot of teams want to have that burden on them. The idea that Alive would join fnatic was, afterall, never finalized. But we will see, I'm curious what will happen.
I hope alive get this settled. I really like him. I also miss him streaming even though he acidentally trolled the entire audience when he went to a break with the stream in a stream thing and forgot to mute it and the music just kept stacking and stacking and stacking.
After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it.
This right here added to my established stance that Coach Lee is a creepy weirdo.
somehow there is always something shabby about him and only get exposed whenever a player leaves the team >< let's just hope everyone get what's best for everyone
EPT
aLive, "I want to resolve this issue"![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Smix/alive.jpg)
Brown in his first match, 
