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By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill |
On January 19 2012 06:23 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:16 dsousa wrote:
When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing.
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts.
Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's!
Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it. I think everyone's being too harsh on Coach Lee. He's undoubtedly concerned because TSL lost a lot of players last year due to both opposition towards his new direction or to player poaching, tried to change things around, and then as TSL's starting to improve again, BAM. Another player poached. Okay, apart from checking chat logs of one of his players, what has he really done that is dictatorish? He's angry because a team has approached one of his players with a cheque book ready without first contacting him. That is poaching no matter what you say about Coach Lee.
Assuming his version of events is 100% accurate. There can be legitimate doubts about that as both Fnatic's version and Alive's version contradict parts of his statement.
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On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote:
if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo.
In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter.
It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then.
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I can't be the only one who finds it really disgusting that Coach Lee read Alive's skype?
Anyway, I hope Alive joins fnatic. Would be the best korean on a foreign team at the moment imo
edit: woops 14 pages
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On January 19 2012 06:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote:
if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo. In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter. It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then.
Was that person a lawyer in South Korea or had sources for this translated in English?
And can you link to the source of this comment?
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Hopefully he comes out okay, alive is a really good player.
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On January 19 2012 06:23 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:16 dsousa wrote:
When the Puma thing happened I though Coach Lee presented himself very poorly. However, since Artosis was such a big supporter of Mr. Lee, I thought it could just be a mis-understanding or a one off thing.
Now though, he's gone too far too many times. He's acted like a child, when he is in fact a custodian of sorts.
Day9 and WhiteRa's good word couldn't save him now in my eye's!
Fact is.... his leadership has produced a team where the players want to flee him. The fact that it has happened over and over now without him being gone from the SC2 scene is a little scary. I would not want him controlling my child's career. He appears to be a petty dictator and we'll probably never even really know the depths of it. I think everyone's being too harsh on Coach Lee. He's undoubtedly concerned because TSL lost a lot of players last year due to both opposition towards his new direction or to player poaching, tried to change things around, and then as TSL's starting to improve again, BAM. Another player poached. Okay, apart from checking chat logs of one of his players, what has he really done that is dictatorish? Some players have complained about the practice regimen that has been set and have yearned for the prize money of foreign tournaments, hence they've been looking to the West for contracts. I haven't heard anything specific about Lee acting negligent and they should have known their practice schedule when they signed up on TSL's contract. He's angry because a team has approached one of his players with a cheque book ready without first contacting him, and understandably too. That is poaching no matter what you say about Coach Lee.Imagine if some filthy rich oil prince from Abu Dhabi had started a StarCraft II team, privately and secretly approached IdrA, DeMusliM, Ret, Stephano, Mvp, NesTea, MarineKing, MC and Flash and convinced them to join his team, offering multi million pound salaries for each player and purchasing a mansion in Seoul as a team house for them all to practice in. How do you think Evil Geniuses, TeamLiquid, Incredible Miracle, Prime, SK Gaming and KT Rolster will feel about that?
Without even going into details.... but I vaguely remember there was some very poor leadership by him during the Puma thing.....
Truth is you don't need the petty he-said she-said stuff to know that Mr. Lee is a piss poor leader. You can just grade him holistically, because as the clear leader of TSL he is ultimately responsible for its results.
And its biggest results is that its players want OUT. SC2 is about the players.... and they are saying something over and over against about Mr. Lee. Dictator was just a guess, but its clearly a bad environment, otherwise kids wouldn't be willing to pay 10k to get away.
We have no idea what Mr. Lee is really like, but the tea leaves are saying some scary things IMO.
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Alive and fnatic clearly get some of the blame but going onto someones computer and printing their private skype conversations? That's a fucked up thing to do. Not sure if I could compete for a manager . that
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Why does it always sound like Coach Lee completely misunderstands things and contradicts himself later by saying, "they did it behind my back!"
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On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote:
From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team.
I agree with this.
I am surprised Fnatic hasn't picked up aLive yet though and saved him from this situation because technically, they are the ones who had a loose end which started the whole situation.
If Fnatic ends up not signing aLive because they won't admit to their faults and don't want a bad rep over it, I will truly be disappointed in their decision making.
On January 19 2012 06:45 On_Slaught wrote:
Alive and fnatic clearly get some of the blame but going onto someones computer and printing their private skype conversations? That's a fucked up thing to do. Not sure if I could compete for a manager . that
I think Coach Lee emotionally overreacted but still I don't blame him at all because of what happened before to him with ST and EG. He should have left the skype conversations out of the public's eyes because such evidence would be better handled in court. I think he just wanted to intimidate Fnatic a bit because no one really wants to spend so much time getting involved with the legal system (such things could take months, hell it took 11 months to get an appeal on my parking ticket).
In the end, basically, what I can sum up from the evidence provided on TL, it just seems Fnatic is lying and that hurt both aLive and coach lee's credibility in the public's eye. I hope Fnatic comes out with a truthful statement and not some bs we've often seen before by the PR of these gaming companies.
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Korean Article seemed really pressuring of aLive
On January 19 2012 06:33 koning wrote:
I can't be the only one who finds it really disgusting that Coach Lee read Alive's skype?
Anyway, I hope Alive joins fnatic. Would be the best korean on a foreign team at the moment imo
edit: woops 14 pages
wow holy shit? someone please explain? otherwise that's a huge invasion of privacy and is so gross.
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I want to resolve this issue too.
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On January 19 2012 06:35 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:30 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote:
if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo. In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter. It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then. Was that person a lawyer in South Korea or had sources for this translated in English? And can you link to the source of this comment?
Quoting that post below. Obviously this deals with email, but it's not going to be a massive stretch to apply that to other electronic communications:
On January 19 2012 04:03 Jimmeh wrote:Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread: After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws: http://www.mcafee.com/us/regulations/apac/republic-of-korea.aspxShow nested quote +Unless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
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nothing to resolve here.
go get this beast fnatic, and pay the damn penalty !
aLive is such an crucial addition, he and Moon will dominate european tournaments left and right.
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On January 19 2012 07:03 Vei wrote:Korean Article seemed really pressuring of aLive Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:33 koning wrote:
I can't be the only one who finds it really disgusting that Coach Lee read Alive's skype?
Anyway, I hope Alive joins fnatic. Would be the best korean on a foreign team at the moment imo
edit: woops 14 pages wow holy shit? someone please explain? otherwise that's a huge invasion of privacy and is so gross.
All you have to do is read the interview with ALive. It clears up a lot of confusion including the invasion of privacy by coach Lee.
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On January 19 2012 07:07 GodOfWar wrote:
nothing to resolve here.
go get this beast fnatic, and pay the damn penalty !
aLive is such an crucial addition, he and Moon will dominate european tournaments left and right.
Lol they are going to own more than just European tourny.
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good luck alive! and gratz to making it to RO16
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On January 19 2012 06:54 FidoDido wrote:
I agree with this.
I am surprised Fnatic hasn't picked up aLive yet though and saved him from this situation because technically, they are the ones who had a loose end which started the whole situation.
If Fnatic ends up not signing aLive because they won't admit to their faults and don't want a bad rep over it, I will truly be disappointed in their decision making.
Seriously, I really find it hard to understand what is so wrong about sounding out a player to see if they might be interested in joining your team. It's not unusual for me to get contacted by recruiters with respect to my employment, and nobody thinks that's weird or immoral. Perhaps there's a culture difference between the western and korean teams here, but it's just as incumbent on the korean teams to get used to that as it is for the western ones.
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:45 On_Slaught wrote:
Alive and fnatic clearly get some of the blame but going onto someones computer and printing their private skype conversations? That's a fucked up thing to do. Not sure if I could compete for a manager . that I think Coach Lee emotionally overreacted but still I don't blame him at all because of what happened before to him with ST and EG. He should have left the skype conversations out of the public's eyes because such evidence would be better handled in court. I think he just wanted to intimidate Fnatic a bit because no one really wants to spend so much time getting involved with the legal system (such things could take months, hell it took 11 months to get an appeal on my parking ticket). In the end, basically, what I can sum up from the evidence provided on TL, it just seems Fnatic is lying and that hurt both aLive and coach lee's credibility in the public's eye. I hope Fnatic comes out with a truthful statement and not some bs we've often seen before by the PR of these gaming companies.
You can understand someone overreacting emotionally without tolerating it or pretending it's acceptable. He should have left that evidence out of public eyes because he should never have looked at it in the first place, not because it would be better for a court.
Coach Lee has lost almost all his players. That ought to be a clear sign that something is wrong with the environment he creates.
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That looks pretty damning to me, Nicator.
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lol quoting a fat drunk guy epic
User was banned for this post.
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United States23455 Posts
Coach Lee got the log of a skype call off of Alive's computer, which is going to make any legal action using it very difficult because the evidence was illegally obtained. Unless it was from a computer owned by the team and at the team house... I'm not sure. Either way Alive shouldn't have done what he did, but I'm guessing that Fnatic pays the fee and he signs with them.
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EPT
