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By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill |
On January 19 2012 01:15 Smix wrote:
Last Sunday, I received an offer from a hyung that works as a Fnatic translator that said that they wanted me. I said I wanted to talk to the Fnatic manager on Monday, and I talked about more details with the translator hyung.
And the mystery deepens
According to aLive, Hyun works as a translator for Fnatic.
I knew it!
jkjk
In all seriousness though, Coach Lee is a joke.
Printing out skype conversations by logging into the player's computers... that's sad.
Or maybe..
Coach Lee is the translator for Fnatic and was testing aLive.
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I don't even see what aLive did wrong? He is still playing for TSL, hasn't breached any contract by leaving early. It's just like any sport, he can talk to whoever the hell he wants as long as he isnt breaching the contract. Fnatic didn't do anything wrong either, they contacted the player and asked if he was interested and then went to the manager? Is it Coach Lee from MBC GAME btw? I assume it is.. he should know not to run to the press at the first minute as long as he has been in the game..
Either Fnatic should pay the fee to break the contract or he should just wait it out and then go to Fnatic for free when the contract runs out.
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On January 19 2012 08:24 DwD wrote:
I don't even see what aLive did wrong? He is still playing for TSL, hasn't breached any contract by leaving early. It's just like any sport, he can talk to whoever the hell he wants as long as he isnt breaching the contract. Fnatic didn't do anything wrong either, they contacted the player and asked if he was interested and then went to the manager? Is it Coach Lee from MBC GAME btw? I assume it is.. he should know not to run to the press at the first minute as long as he has been in the game..
Either Fnatic should pay the fee to break the contract or he should just wait it out and then go to Fnatic for free when the contract runs out.
Implying noone will pick up aLive.
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According to US laws, employers have the rights to monitor its employees' computer.
At least that's my understanding, and I doubt it'll be any different in Korea
Most employers in big companies do use surveillance technology to monitor their employees’ Internet usage at work. alive don't have any legal grounds on it, but he may be in trouble if he did breach his contract
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EG ALIVE
scoot and alex makes it happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On January 19 2012 08:29 iky43210 wrote:
According to US laws, employers have the rights to monitor its employees' computer.
At least that's my understanding, and I doubt it'll be any different in Korea
Most employers in big companies do use surveillance technology to monitor their employees’ Internet usage at work. alive don't have any legal grounds on it, but he may be in trouble if he did breach his contract
The laws do indeed appear to be different in Korea - US laws are by no means some kind of standard in this respect.
Quoting myself quoting Jimmeh on the matter:
On January 19 2012 07:06 Nicator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:35 Clbull wrote:On January 19 2012 06:30 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2012 06:06 justsayinbro wrote:
if alive's equipments (computer,screen etc) are TSL property, then anything on the computer, including chat log, is team's property. depends how that log was retrieved imo. In the "Heart leaves TSL" thread someone pointed out that spying on an employee is against the law in Korea without notice and consent. Who owns the equipment does not factor into the matter. It is horrible policy too. If you don't trust an employee, don't hire then. Was that person a lawyer in South Korea or had sources for this translated in English? And can you link to the source of this comment? Quoting that post below. Obviously this deals with email, but it's not going to be a massive stretch to apply that to other electronic communications: Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 04:03 Jimmeh wrote:Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread: After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws: http://www.mcafee.com/us/regulations/apac/republic-of-korea.aspxUnless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
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Edit: what the lest guy said pretty much covers it
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On January 19 2012 01:42 Fionn wrote:
How is anyone supposed to take this seriously when we have players breaching contracts left and right?
Coaches monitoring players' Skype conversations are a bigger problem than players talking on a private footing to a friend from another team. Unless there's a contractual stipulation allowing the snooping to happen, or some kind of permission/loophole in Korean law, reading logs of private conversations could be a bigger violation of the law than a "mere" breach of contract. In fact, the snooping might well be criminal unless specifically allowed by some clause somewhere.
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Then it will come down what's in the contract. I doubt you get to keep much of your privacy when you join something like a team house
Not that this is any important at all. If Alive does not care or isn't mad, its quite obvious that either he doesn't care or he knew the contract allowed pc monitoring.
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On January 19 2012 08:45 iky43210 wrote:
Then it will come down what's in the contract. I doubt you get to keep much of your privacy when you join something like a team house
Still, getting your conversations monitored... Since there are no indications of a tip preceding a one-time investigation, there's just a log pulled out of the hat like a rabbit.
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Here come the TL lawyers ...
Admittedly, I'm more curious as to why TSL keeps losing players than anything else.
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The Skype print-out is strange, but I still feed bad really for all involved since the truth is almost always in the middle and it is likely none of the parties perspective is the exact truth. I hope that these scenarios cease ASAP as they are not helpful to the Korean/Western relationship and Esports in general.
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spoiler tag please...come on...
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Instead of arguing over the legal technicalities of a foreign legal system and contract, why can't we discuss the base things going on here?
Lee is flipping his shit (again) over what may or may not be a big deal. If it's how Fnatic is trying to make it sound, that the contact was just a casually feeling out of interest then the only person behaving incorrectly is Coach Lee. More likely though, Fnatic was being a bit shady and spoke at length with Alive while keeping Lee out of the loop - then Lee upped the ante and is causing a shitstorm out of this whole thing.
No matter what happens here, Alive is leaving TSL. Fnatic will continue on just fine (most likely with Alive, but possibly without). I'm mostly just hoping that Alive doesn't get burned from this whole thing and end up teamless because Fnatic doesn't want to pick up Alive and seem like the bad guys.
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So Coach lee got his private kype conversations and printed them out? and still says about taking it to court? OMG xD
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On January 19 2012 02:57 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:24 pStar wrote:
Coach Lee got a skype convo off his computer.
He could get in huge trouble for that. Like, court trouble. not if the computer belonged to TSL. When you use company-provided equipment, don't be thinking "this is my computer" because it isn't. It belongs to the company, not you. Therefore they can do as they see fit. If it was a personal, home computer, then sure.
Actually, that's not so simple. There are computers that are there for company business (e.g. office PCs) and there are hand-outs that are nominally company property but are understood to be for personal use as well. Being the proprietor of the PC doesn't necessarily give the right to snoop into private files. Ownership is not enough there unless maybe in some country where either the legislators or the courts have decided that yeah, ownership gives you that right.
Also, a one-time intervention after hearing a tip is one thing. Somehow winding up with fresh logs is another. I do hope it wasn't a result of ongoing, real-time monitoring of Skype conversations... but that'd take a paranoid person to do, shouldn't be presuming that about Coach Lee, I guess. But he should explain how he got the logs.
***
As for exit clause/penalty, please note the difference. An exit clause is a termination fee. You pay, you can quit, fair deal and no penalty, just a fee for the ability to quit early. On the other hand, a penalty is stipulated as a penal fee for something that shouldn't happen (e.g. for late delivery, insufficient quality of goods, whatever—at least outside America and possibly other common law jurisdictions, where actual penalties are not allowed in contracts). They probably signed the contract under Korean law and it's not like non-Koreans can take educated guesses as to Korean civil law, we'd need a Korean lawyer. But the vocabulary used in the interview suggests a penalty, except that a player might well be using the word "penalty" in a colloquial sense. At any rate, a penalty for breach (where breach consists in cessation of performance) is not the same thing as a simple exit clause (the effect is the same or close to it but anyway).
On January 19 2012 04:11 babylon wrote:
There was no breach of contract.
Quitting is, if your right to terminate is excluded in the contract. Merely talking but without actually quitting might actually end up not being a breach.
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Hope everything turns out for the best D:
Gratz to alive on making it out of the group!
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On January 19 2012 08:45 iky43210 wrote:
Then it will come down what's in the contract. I doubt you get to keep much of your privacy when you join something like a team house
Not that this is any important at all. If Alive does not care or isn't mad, its quite obvious that either he doesn't care or he knew the contract allowed pc monitoring.
To me the interview reads like he does care - and so he should. If it were me I'd flip my shit.
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I just hope that he comes out of this....alive.
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Coach Lee snooping Alive's Skype log? no wonder people want to quit his team.
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EPT
