EPTOn January 19 2012 01:23 Pandemona wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
SPOILER TAG MAYBE
FML t.t
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
SPOILER TAG MAYBE
FML t.t
DAYUM IT! I just realized that I got spoiled too, didn't even consider it. Damn it.
aLive, "I want to resolve this issue" - Page 17
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By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
DAYUM IT! I just realized that I got spoiled too, didn't even consider it. Damn it. | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
No one is coming out of this looking good at all! Lee commits a serious breach of privacy. (unless there's something in team contract allowing him access which i can't even begin to fathom). Alive sought to break his own contract to get out of TSL. And Fnatic with blatant contract tampering. This is just terrible from top to bottom. Poor #ESPORTS  | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:52 Boonbag wrote: sounds like coach lee wanted to get max money from fnatic imo This appears to me to be exactly right. If Alive was to leave TSL and pay the fine. Everything would go smoothly per se Alive signing with fnatic but it appears coach Lee wanted to Barter Alives contract Possibly for more return Money; a good guess | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On January 19 2012 08:12 gitarrojoe wrote: i dont like how the situation is handled for the player. its like the teams would decide where he plays, but aside from the contract its alives choice. To say Fnatic did something wrong because they made a good offer to alive is just wierd. By contract, a player 'belongs' to a team. He is binded to the team, and there is no if's or but's about what the player gets to do. Everything he is allowed to do is stated in the contract, and then the team allows him what they feel, after the contractual liberties are provided. According to contract, a player is not allowed to speak to another team and talk about those kinds of issues. It is thus, the job of an outside team who wants to pick up a player residing in a team with contract, to go up to the team that player resides in, and begin to discuss agreements in which both teams, plus the player will be happy and comfortable with. They turn into bodies of legislation, in which the well being of the player is decided. If, for example, Fnatic went up to TSL and said "hey we want to offer your player X amount of money, + stay in a team house, open access to Y amount of facilities, and Z opportunities" it is then up to the team who has the player in contract to decide if that is better for their player than what he is currently receiving. If the team wants to trade the player, then they will do so. If they don't want to trade the player, then they will not trade him. Once the contract is finished, it is the decision of both the player and the team to either renew the contract or not to. If the team wants to renew but the player does not, then the player chooses not to, and vice versa. Once the player is no longer under contract, he is a free agent and is allowed to roam and look for teams whenever he chooses. While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides. Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed. THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. Real sports organizations function the same way. This is the land of the big boys. People don't fuck around for any reason in which they so please. When people make mistakes, consequences are then enforced. Lee is trying to show the world that Fnatic showed unprofessional behavior, and they did. He's not saying that Fnatic breached aLive's contract for him, aLive did that on his own. You and everyone else needs to realize that this is a business, and business is thus taken into account. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides. I seriously doubt any legislation except maybe the US one allows this kind of thing to go through. Example: You get a contract ready to sign sent to your place in a letter. You open it, read it out of couriosity. Have you now breached your contract? This kind of thing is probably not sustainable in employment/service contracts. You may enforce NDAs but that's pretty much where it ends in most countries (I'd be pretty curious about the Korean law on this). Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed. So when did their translator become staff? For that he'd have to have some sort of employment relationship with them, not just services he provides. Plus, without seeing the contract I can already tell you that most likely there was no breach and even if their could be, it's questionable whether it's in the actual contract. You have to be very specific on this shit or any lawyer will mess with you all he wants. This is the land of the big boys. Nope, this is TSL, faaaaar from the big boys in terms of capital, even more so from their cash flow. Edit: I completely forgot about Lee breaching privacy to acquire that information, if he went on to file a lawsuit aLive could respond harshly. Better not fuck up, Lee? | ||
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Chengakz
United States163 Posts
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
Easy on the hate plox, TSL. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:00 Timerly wrote: I seriously doubt any legislation except maybe the US one allows this kind of thing to go through. Example: You get a contract ready to sign sent to your place in a letter. You open it, read it out of couriosity. Have you now breached your contract? This kind of thing is probably not sustainable in employment/service contracts. You may enforce NDAs but that's pretty much where it ends in most countries (I'd be pretty curious about the Korean law on this). So when did their translator become staff? For that he'd have to have some sort of employment relationship with them, not just services he provides. Plus, without seeing the contract I can already tell you that most likely there was no breach and even if their could be, it's questionable whether it's in the actual contract. You have to be very specific on this shit or any lawyer will mess with you all he wants. Nope, this is TSL, faaaaar from the big boys in terms of capital, even more so from their cash flow. Edit: I completely forgot about Lee breaching privacy to acquire that information, if he went on to file a lawsuit aLive could respond harshly. Better not fuck up, Lee? lol You don't seem to be able to figure out the difference between Fnatic's actions and aLive's actions. Fnatic did something unprofessional. There are no laws against what Fnatic did, it was merely something that is not respectable in the eyes of Korean regularity. Foreign teams I'm sure can also agree as to why they see it was not very professional. As for aLive looking at an official document regarding his professional occupation, it would be standard procedure to hand the document off to Lee and not read it himself. In that case, Fnatic would receive a lot of negative attention, and Lee would then be required to tell aLive what Fnatic is offereing aLive. The breach of contract is assuming aLive joins Fnatic. If he were to join Fnatic and sign contract with them/play with their team shirt/advertise them in any way/etcetc, then the contract would be breached and legal matters can be taken into place. Sorry my words were misleadingly provoking that the contract has already been breached. I was talking in terms of if he were to actually join Fnatic before his contract is up, which according to the information provided is very possible. Lee has pretty good experience in professional eSports management, and afaik he had lawyers write up their contracts. If you think he's stupid enough to allow players to leave his team at will even when they are contracted, then you are making a pretty harsh accusation against his image. As for your final statement, that was too childish to even take seriously. | ||
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36900 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:32 PhiliBiRD wrote: you know, it sems to me coach lee gets butt hurt and takes things out of perspective. this is like the 3rd time i can think of coach lee insinuating drama like this Third time? When was the 2nd and 1st time? | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:36 GoBackToGo wrote: lol at coach lee printing out private conversations of one of his players. no wonder everyone wants to leave TSL This. I said before that although Coach Lee's siuation with Puma was found out to be correct for his side of the story, you have to wonder why people are leaving TSL en masse. I don't care what lawyer drew up the contract, no contract should include the coaches ability to listen to player's private conversations. So either the contract is shady, or what coach Lee did was 100x more unethical than aLive reaching out to foreign teams. Especially if it was only discussions, that makes aLive 100% free of charge and Coach Lee explaining himself for his actions. | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill Only sluts swallow. Thanks for the interview! I think TSL needs a PR guy. | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
All parties are partially to blame. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:22 Shinta) wrote: By contract, a player 'belongs' to a team. He is binded to the team, and there is no if's or but's about what the player gets to do. Everything he is allowed to do is stated in the contract, and then the team allows him what they feel, after the contractual liberties are provided. According to contract, a player is not allowed to speak to another team and talk about those kinds of issues. It is thus, the job of an outside team who wants to pick up a player residing in a team with contract, to go up to the team that player resides in, and begin to discuss agreements in which both teams, plus the player will be happy and comfortable with. They turn into bodies of legislation, in which the well being of the player is decided. If, for example, Fnatic went up to TSL and said "hey we want to offer your player X amount of money, + stay in a team house, open access to Y amount of facilities, and Z opportunities" it is then up to the team who has the player in contract to decide if that is better for their player than what he is currently receiving. If the team wants to trade the player, then they will do so. If they don't want to trade the player, then they will not trade him. Once the contract is finished, it is the decision of both the player and the team to either renew the contract or not to. If the team wants to renew but the player does not, then the player chooses not to, and vice versa. Once the player is no longer under contract, he is a free agent and is allowed to roam and look for teams whenever he chooses. While he is under contract, he does not have the privilege of talking to outside teams. Speaking as an individual to a friend is fine, but negotiating team arrangements (whether just playing around or not) is not allowed because it influences the player's current role in his current team. Even if the player decides he does not want to take the offer, the mere fact that it was offered to him could spark greed and thus disrupt his performance in the team in which he resides. Fnatic, knowing the rules of the game, does not accept responsibility for the actions of their own staff member. Whether their staff was requested to undergo negotiations with aLive or not, discussing terms of contract and team switching are negotiations. A staff member of Fnatic showed characteristics of an unprofessional individual, and aLive then breached contract. Now with a breach of contract, legal matters can be taken into place, and lawsuits can be filed. THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. Real sports organizations function the same way. This is the land of the big boys. People don't fuck around for any reason in which they so please. When people make mistakes, consequences are then enforced. Lee is trying to show the world that Fnatic showed unprofessional behavior, and they did. He's not saying that Fnatic breached aLive's contract for him, aLive did that on his own. You and everyone else needs to realize that this is a business, and business is thus taken into account. Ignoring your problems with grammar and spelling (though that makes reading your post harder than it should be) I must question what you actually know about the real world you are shouting about in capital letters. A player does not EVER belong to a team. Please read that sentence and know it for truth. His actions and his services might be owed to a team, he might also be restricted in what he can do and his duties to gain his wage might be set down in a contract. Whatever the case his basic human rights cannot be restricted by a contract, if it is supposed to stand up in a court of law. That includes the right to talk to people... His contract might forbid him from official negotiations (it likely does) without involving TSL in them, but that is the crux of this thread. aLive and fnatic say there were only informal talks between friends at the point Coach Lee went to the press. Whatever might be written in the contracts they are written under a set of laws or codes. In the real world you are asking for those are twofold: the national law of the country and usually the rules of the Sport Assosciation in question. That might be NFL, FIFA, UEFA, MLB etc... Notice what we do not have in SC2? A code of rules how things must be done between teams. One can try to draw analogues to other sports, but frankly they don't matter. The only things that matter to a judge would be the Korean laws, and the specific contract signed by aLive. We have not read his contract (and frankly it's unlikely we ever will, it will almost certainly be kept secret), nor does anyone here have deep understanding of Korean buisness law. What i do know for certain is that the mythical Real World buisness!!!! you are asking for, does not exist for this discussion. We can talk about how fnatic has not behaved properly or TSL or aLive or whoever, but that is all we can do. We can try to assign some kind of ethical blame we want to discuss ("they aren't doing buisness the way we want them to do it") but anything beyond that (including calls for legal action) is just grandstanding and hyperbole. | ||
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saltymango
United States120 Posts
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:20 Shinta) wrote: lol You don't seem to be able to figure out the difference between Fnatic's actions and aLive's actions. Fnatic did something unprofessional. There are no laws against what Fnatic did, it was merely something that is not respectable in the eyes of Korean regularity. Foreign teams I'm sure can also agree as to why they see it was not very professional. As for aLive looking at an official document regarding his professional occupation, it would be standard procedure to hand the document off to Lee and not read it himself. In that case, Fnatic would receive a lot of negative attention, and Lee would then be required to tell aLive what Fnatic is offereing aLive. The breach of contract is assuming aLive joins Fnatic. If he were to join Fnatic and sign contract with them/play with their team shirt/advertise them in any way/etcetc, then the contract would be breached and legal matters can be taken into place. Sorry my words were misleadingly provoking that the contract has already been breached. I was talking in terms of if he were to actually join Fnatic before his contract is up, which according to the information provided is very possible. Lee has pretty good experience in professional eSports management, and afaik he had lawyers write up their contracts. If you think he's stupid enough to allow players to leave his team at will even when they are contracted, then you are making a pretty harsh accusation against his image. As for your final statement, that was too childish to even take seriously. Oh I understand who did what but the point is, there's no breach happening right now and even if he should join, claiming a breach would be difficult given the circumstances. Obviously, the way things should have gone would be between the teams and their management but this isn't really the issue here. I also highly doubt Lee has water proof contracts, even if he has so much experience, crafting a contract which covers a situation like this clearly and expressively is difficult. No, lawyers drawing them up does not make them water proof. Also, there's no point to him being stupid, he has to allow people to leave occupation on fair notice. I know about non compete clauses but these are not always deemed reasonable (example: it's the only profession you know and you don't have enough money to retire). As for my final statement, there's quite a few players who apparently couldn't stand TSL any longer than necessary, you think he only went through aLive's stuff? There's a pretty high chance he just routinely checks up on this kind of thing if he actually picked this up which means there'd be quite a few people who might want to join in if he tries to bully his way to some money, after all it's between a friend and the coach who might very well be the reason they left. I would love some insight on SK law though, in some countries you'd automatically face prosecution for anything illegal you did to acquire the evidence you base your claim on. | ||
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
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SC2NeCro
Canada507 Posts
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HappyChris
1534 Posts
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