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On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor
It's really not about NaNi. From what I can tell they are pretending they changed the format before the Blizzard Cup, but the OP has no link to the announcement (if there is an announcement that shows they didn't retroactively change the format I'd like to see it). The first tweet said NaNi had been "baned" from GSL, because even the Koreans believed he had EARNED the spot. It would be all fine and good, it is certainly GOM's "right" to ban a player for misconduct, IF the rules are clear. But, the took an ambiguous rule and applied it here when we can apply offensive behavior to MC knocking on the glass of his opponent's booth, Keen's hilarious ceremonies, or even NesTea admitting he wasn't giving it his all in the All Star matches.
So the problem isn't about NaNi. The problem is that GOM takes us all for granted. They don't appreciate the foreign players. They applied an ambiguous rule to ban a player from their tournament and this is the first this rule has been used to my knowledge. Then, to further justify their actions they break their partnership with MLG without MLG's knowledge treating a large foreign event organizer like a parent treats their child (or as reddit put it Darth Vader treats Lando).
How would our community react if MLG decided that MLG Providence didn't count for the agreement and didn't pay for four players from Korea to come play? They even payed for MVP who wasn't even in pool play. I don't see any way these actions are justified. "Moving on" would be all fine and good if such actions weren't so reprehensible. They signify a disrespect for our community, we had no official announcement, we had a botched tweet (which contained the most truth GOM has presented to us in the last week) and even MLG, casters, community figures, etc have their hands in the air saying "I don't know shit!"
So if GOM or MLG want to move on that's fine, but I won't watch the GSL until they apologize and admit they were hypocrites for claiming they understand the values of professionalism.
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On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor
Dreamhack and WCG have had "meaningless games" in their tournaments. It's impossible to eliminate meaningless games in traditional round robin style groups without allowing forfeits. The only difference is that an international audience weren't watching those games.
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On December 16 2011 20:51 Parlortricks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 19:01 Skyreaper wrote:On December 16 2011 17:24 Spaceneil8 wrote:On December 16 2011 17:20 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 17:17 Stoffelhase wrote:the code S spot was part of the pricepool.. gom and mlg agreed on this, now gom changed it (without telling anyone), lol?! this really makes me sad.. i spent around 7 paid seasons with gom (not too much for them, but at least a lot of money for me), this will end now! i think mlg should talk gom to giving nani a code S spot at least next season.. he earned it and now got tricked out of it! im really angry and sad  it was never part of the prize pool, stop thinking that. The prize was a spot in the blizzardcup, which they gave nani like they said they would. The code S spot was not part of the providence prize pool It was but GOM changed it with out telling anyone. When the exchange program was first announced it was part of it, and it was part of it until GOM changed it. The decision was made before MLG providence. Gom announced about Blizzard Cup two months ago, then announced new plan for 2012 GSL which clearly state that two International seeds will be given to players. GOM replaced MLG direct seed used in 2011 GSL with international seed, becuase they don't want foreign players from just MLG to be invited to Code S. They wanted any foreign players who are capable to compete in GSL to be invited. MLG is aware of this, and they also knew Top players will still be granted code S for 2011 GSL!! MLG never mentioned whether it will take effect in 2012 GSL though 2012 GSL has completely different format from previous one. What a great move by MLG! "The original agreement (announced probably in May) between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season." - How can Code S be granted for one season if the tournament have already ended in November."With the recently announced changes to the 2012 GSL season, GSL switched the MLG Providence Code S invite to two spots at the GSL Blizzard Cup. Naniwa was awarded one of these spots. Unfortunately, the change was made without notification to MLG, but it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement." - Because a rule that is only valid for 2011 GSL TOUR would not take effect in another tournament. Since the tournament has already ended, Gom announced that Blizzard Cup seed will be granted instead to top players in MLG. Unfortunately ,MLG interpreted the rule arbitrarily and believed that MLG had the right to grant top player Code S seed until GSL extincts from eSports. A quick hypothetical: what if two Code S players had gotten to the finals at MLG Providence and a progamer without Code S came in third? This is significant because the invitational format was the top two seeds from MLG Providence, but now they also say one of these was a Code S spot where previously it was not. GOM is pulling a bait and switch in retrospect based on the convenience that Naniwa was not previously in Code S. Regardless of whether or not Naniwa's punishment was justified, GOM has proven that they are willing to change a format retroactively if it suits them and I'm not alright with this because it undermines everything regarding tournament regulation.
i thought about this too.. it is very strange.
MLG promoted the tournament with the code S-spot.. it is really messed up if the scenario youre talking about played out.
If it indeed is that way, that GSL changed the rules BEFORE providence, someone could have gotten screwed badly. What if Hero or someone else not eligable for the new "2 foreigners to code s"-rule would have finished 3rd after 2 code s-players, been extremely happy he made it into code s, and then GOM would have told him "sorry, instead of you getting a code-s spot we hade changed the rules to the winner and runner up getting to go to blizzard cup. you get nothing."
that would be sooo messed up, still that is what gom is telling us is the case
it is really disrespectful to think that we would buy such a ludicrous lie
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Another point in this whole mess is the underlining of just how non-existent esport-journalism really is. Where's the time-lines, the questions, the background, the inquiries? There are none. The purpose of the news-sites is apparently to reprint press-releases. Our sources of information all have a stake in this issue, and so the default-mode of reporting is to "close your eyes and think of England".
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On December 16 2011 20:55 CarelessPride wrote:
lol do you think GSL would do the same for MLG if the position switched? This is kinda like when your kid plays with your boss's kid and your kid didn't want to pray before eating because he's not christian and your boss tells ur kid to GTFO. The dad doesn't even back he kid up because hes a bitch and acknowledges his kid was in the wrong and still invite his boss's kid over. except there's no boss just the koreans and the dickless foreign community bowing down to w/e the koreans say. Call it racism but I call it having some pride, The koreans take so much pride in being korean so let us take some pride as the foriegn community.
... Haha, another analogy, not sure if I like this one but the point is valid.
And it is a good point actually in regards to having switched positions.
Lets say, in regards to the League Exchange Program, if MLG were to create a small separate invite-only tournament that had no bearing on MLG's championship points, with a much reduced prize pool, without even telling the Koreans that they wouldn't be playing in the main MLG event despite being told they were, would the Koreans be happy with this?
I think we all know the answer there.
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On December 16 2011 21:01 m0ck wrote:
Another point in this whole mess is the underlining of just how non-existent esport-journalism really is. Where's the time-lines, the questions, the background, the inquiries? There are none. The purpose of the news-sites is apparently to reprint press-releases. Our sources of information all have a stake in this issue, and so the default-mode of reporting is to "close your eyes and think of England".
MLG does have some really nice efforts with SC Report and Fuck Slasher.
But of course they couldnt say a lot about this topic as this is a MLG issue.
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On December 16 2011 20:57 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Dreamhack and WCG have had "meaningless games" in their tournaments. It's impossible to eliminate meaningless games in traditional round robin style groups without allowing forfeits. The only difference is that an international audience weren't watching those games.
Not that this is the issue at all, but it's quite common to not play out games with no consequence for the tournament. It's decided on a tournament-for-tournament basis, that is true.
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On December 16 2011 20:57 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Dreamhack and WCG have had "meaningless games" in their tournaments. It's impossible to eliminate meaningless games in traditional round robin style groups without allowing forfeits. The only difference is that an international audience weren't watching those games.
and an international tournament wouldn't kick the player out of any seeding he got for throwing a meaningless game..
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On December 16 2011 21:04 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:57 Jackle wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Dreamhack and WCG have had "meaningless games" in their tournaments. It's impossible to eliminate meaningless games in traditional round robin style groups without allowing forfeits. The only difference is that an international audience weren't watching those games. and an international tournament wouldn't kick the player out of any seeding he got for throwing a meaningless game..
Why are you guys talking about throwing meaningless games?! That is no longer the issue! Huk has admitted what he did was wrong, and deserved his punishment.
The issue now is how MLG can possibly be okay with GOM retro-actively changing the terms of their League Exchange Program, without informing anyone...
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On December 16 2011 12:57 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:52 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:50 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:47 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". What im saying is yes his prize was change The prize was changed because the seed format was chamged. Im only pointing out there is a good reason for the change-to give more opportunities It is a sacrifice naniwa was forced to make for the good of the gsl. Naniwa should be well credited for it. The change in seed format had nothing to do with blizzcup, naniwa and quantic have accepted it. Fans of naniwa can be angry.. But it wont change anything. Naniwa still had a chance for the code S seed being a candidate but gom eliminated Him from the candidate list due to blizzcup. End of story You can be angry as you like at gom for changing his prize and or taking his candidate position But im just pointing out it was an optimal decision for the tournament itself Please take your time and re-read my posts. Especially the long one. No one here discusses the change. It is a whole different matter. Many in TL actually find the new format really good, or at least a good improvement. It also doesn't matter whether NaNiwa get's Code S or not. I think you deliberately skipped 99% of my posts. Because that's another thing I had to repeat over and over. It is about changing rules afterwards. Imagine a test in school. Your teacher tells you: "draw a house". One week later he gives you the results of the test. And says: "By the way, I changed the rules of the test. The new goal is to draw a horse. You have 0 points, enjoy" What I am saying is, they can change their format. Just tell others about it before the tournament. And not after. i think you're making it a bigger deal than it actually is. especially when people are connecting it with naniwa. you're making it like they actually changed the prize pool, which would be significant but its not the same. So rewards to player performance in tournaments should be generally held subject to change, and tournament organizer's judgement will suffice on evaluating significance? depending on the situation, yes. in this case, the change was for the better. according earlier post, blizzard cup's seeding changed after blizzard cup's announcement (this was for the better also), where was everyone then? just saying, this is getting extra attention because of naniwa, not because changing rules are evil.
Are you for real? I dont know how you to it over at Korea but you cant.just.change.rules.after.tournament. We call it SCAM. You're missing the whole fucking point. None gives a damn that it was Naniwa, what really upsets people is that it could have been any other player out there. IdrA, DRG, Leenock, HuK, Thorzain, who the hell you can imagine.
Do you get the point? It's like you agree to a job and the boss tells you you're good enough to get 4k dollar per month, but at the end of the month when you have agreed the employment and worked for a whole month the boss tells you that you're only getting half.
That's a fucking scam. And we got the exact same issue here. We don't give a damn if you can scam people because its legal and they have the right to do so by papers. What we really give a damn about is that the biggest SC2 league can't act professional.
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On December 16 2011 05:08 terranmoccasin wrote:
We really need to drop this and move on. For anyone that doesn't want to support GOM, so be it. I feel like all of this drama impacts every organization and the fans negatively. The best anyone can do is to avoid situations like this altogether in the future.
Let's just enjoy some SC2!
For the love of god, how can anyone think like this?
You know what affects fans negatively? Watching tournaments that unilaterally back out of promised prizes that players have won in fair competition, because they want to wave their dicks around.
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Changing prizes retroactively is very far from okay.
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On December 16 2011 17:14 Koshi wrote:
Naniwa got a free spot. Played disrespectful. Gom retaliated.
I am fine with it.
Naniwa earned a spot in fair competition. It was in no way "free".
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On December 16 2011 21:12 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:08 terranmoccasin wrote:
We really need to drop this and move on. For anyone that doesn't want to support GOM, so be it. I feel like all of this drama impacts every organization and the fans negatively. The best anyone can do is to avoid situations like this altogether in the future.
Let's just enjoy some SC2! For the love of god, how can anyone think like this? You know what affects fans negatively? Watching tournaments that unilaterally back out of promised prizes that players have won in fair competition, because they want to wave their dicks around.
I don't really think "they want to wave their dicks around." I actually believe this was a mistake by GSL trying to not look like the bad guys to the Naniwa fanboys, and trying to make their punishment of Naniwa seem less severe because they value the opinions of the foreign community.
However they did not realise that we aren't entirely retarded, and would smell something fishy was going on when they said they retroactively changed the terms of the League Exchange Program without informing us at all.
All we need really is an apology to that ^ effect from GSL, and we would all be golden...
Alternatively, an explanation as to why it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement.
-sd without informing anyone, from MLG's point of view. Because according to that one quote, it is within GSL's jurisdiction to say "F- you foreigners, you will get placed in tournament that has a $50 prize pool against 3 of the best Koreans."
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On December 16 2011 21:18 sodapop wrote:
Changing prizes retroactively is very far from okay.
it was changed before providence
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On December 16 2011 07:11 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:05 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 16 2011 06:56 Nexic wrote:On December 16 2011 06:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 16 2011 06:47 babylon wrote:On December 16 2011 06:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:[quote] http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip. Bullshittu. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/The above is the site for the Pro Cirvcit. Go to the menu-point "Competitions". Do you see Providence? What is your basis for excluding Providence from the Pro Circuit? The organizers of the Pro Circuit themselves counted Providence as gifting a code S spot. This entire argument boggles my mind. People need to reread the OP. It doesn't matter if Providence was included in the Pro Circuit or not -- the understanding was as follows: The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season. yet using the same agreement that MLG cited, they never seeded 4 korean players directly into championship pools. what's your explanation for that? or are we to assume that GSL is supposed to keep up their end of the bargain but MLG does not? You don't know what you're talking about. MLG did uphold their part of the agreement. In providence there was obviously no pool play, so instead MLG paid for 4 previous MLG champions/1 runner-up (MMA, MVP, Bomber, and MC) to come to Providence. GSL did not do anything for their half of the LXP for Providence. actually you don't know what you're talking about. lol convenient, no pool play so yeah we don't have to seed them even though that's a CONDITION in the agreement. also MLG didn't pay for MVP. Quantic did as a result of their partnership with IM. Thats a really interesting point. If the 4 GSL players weren't seeded into MLG didn't MLG first break their end of the bargain? Why should providence winner (or in Nani's case 2nd place) get a seed to Code S if the quid pro quo portion wasn't upheld?
That's an absolutely nonsensical argument. You have the "quid" confused with the "quo".
MLG gains viewers from inviting prominent Koreans, which is why they pay the expenses. It is of very little benefit to GOM, and actually forces them to change scheduling so that an additional 4 GSL players can travel and compete. Not having to send any players is good for GOM.
GOM gains viewers from seeding prominent foreigners or Western fan favorite Koreans. Due to MLG's format, where the National Championship event doesn't have pool play, Providence is all "quo" for GOM, with no "quid" needed (since MLG can't demand any seeds into a nonexistent pool).
GOM got its cake, and ate it too, and now decided that they don't like the baker so they're gonna sell it back.
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On December 16 2011 21:10 LION` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:57 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:52 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:50 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:47 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". What im saying is yes his prize was change The prize was changed because the seed format was chamged. Im only pointing out there is a good reason for the change-to give more opportunities It is a sacrifice naniwa was forced to make for the good of the gsl. Naniwa should be well credited for it. The change in seed format had nothing to do with blizzcup, naniwa and quantic have accepted it. Fans of naniwa can be angry.. But it wont change anything. Naniwa still had a chance for the code S seed being a candidate but gom eliminated Him from the candidate list due to blizzcup. End of story You can be angry as you like at gom for changing his prize and or taking his candidate position But im just pointing out it was an optimal decision for the tournament itself Please take your time and re-read my posts. Especially the long one. No one here discusses the change. It is a whole different matter. Many in TL actually find the new format really good, or at least a good improvement. It also doesn't matter whether NaNiwa get's Code S or not. I think you deliberately skipped 99% of my posts. Because that's another thing I had to repeat over and over. It is about changing rules afterwards. Imagine a test in school. Your teacher tells you: "draw a house". One week later he gives you the results of the test. And says: "By the way, I changed the rules of the test. The new goal is to draw a horse. You have 0 points, enjoy" What I am saying is, they can change their format. Just tell others about it before the tournament. And not after. i think you're making it a bigger deal than it actually is. especially when people are connecting it with naniwa. you're making it like they actually changed the prize pool, which would be significant but its not the same. So rewards to player performance in tournaments should be generally held subject to change, and tournament organizer's judgement will suffice on evaluating significance? depending on the situation, yes. in this case, the change was for the better. according earlier post, blizzard cup's seeding changed after blizzard cup's announcement (this was for the better also), where was everyone then? just saying, this is getting extra attention because of naniwa, not because changing rules are evil. Are you for real? I dont know how you to it over at Korea but you cant.just.change.rules.after.tournament. We call it SCAM. You're missing the whole fucking point. None gives a damn that it was Naniwa, what really upsets people is that it could have been any other player out there. IdrA, DRG, Leenock, HuK, Thorzain, who the hell you can imagine. Do you get the point? It's like you agree to a job and the boss tells you you're good enough to get 4k dollar per month, but at the end of the month when you have agreed the employment and worked for a whole month the boss tells you that you're only getting half. That's a fucking scam. And we got the exact same issue here. We don't give a damn if you can scam people because its legal and they have the right to do so by papers. What we really give a damn about is that the biggest SC2 league can't act professional.
The point is that it was changed before the tournament.
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On December 16 2011 15:55 FishForThought wrote:Don't make it sound like this is far fetched and unprecedented. Even in real athletes, people get banned from 'violating spirit of fair play' Show nested quote +4. Ara Abrahamian – Sweden
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Unlike many other athletes on the list, Abrahamian wasn’t found to be doing illegal things. He wasn’t using steroids to enhance his performance or breaking any other serious offense like most athletes on the list. At the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, Abrahamian was up against tough opponents. After the judges finalized their scores, Abrahamian only came in third. However, he and his coach both disputed the scores and claimed the judges were being corrupt and unjust. The two called for a review of the match but this was declined. Come time for the awards ceremony, Abrahamian attended, but when he was handed his bronze medal, he shook the hands of the others, stepped off the podium, and placed it on the wrestling mat. He then chose to leave without his medal. Because of the incident, the IOC held a conference and decided that Abrahamian needed to be suspended for violating the spirit of fair play. He and his coach were to be banned for 2 years, but this was overturned in 2009.
Source: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-athletes-who-lost-their-olympic-medal.phpI am glad GOM is treating the players like real athletes and the game as a real sport.
You want esports to be like the olympics and IOC? Do some research, you dont have to go far, and you will find that it has been riddled with corruption scandals.
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On December 16 2011 21:20 skipgamer wrote:
I don't really think "they want to wave their dicks around." I actually believe this was a mistake by GSL trying to not look like the bad guys to the Naniwa fanboys, and trying to make their punishment of Naniwa seem less severe because they value the opinions of the foreign community.
I am utterly convinced they never intended to not award the Code S seed to the highest placing player of the 2011 national finals. That's the entire damn point of the exchange program, bringing prominent players to the GSL, and the wallets of their fans to gomtv.net. Dick waving is exactly what I would call revoking prizes as punitive measures for breaking "unwritten rules" or "disregarding cultural standards".
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EPT
