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On December 16 2011 22:04 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:51 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:45 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:42 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 21:41 NHY wrote:
GOM told everyone that it was changed. What part of "New GSL format for 2012" don't you get. When? I'm sorry, was it before MLG Providence? Here's the self-quote On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. For the love of god, that's from November 21, a day after the competition, and it's on some random Korean news site. Regardless of the date, they were never in a position to say "eh, we haven't decided yet" without making it known to MLG that they were in fact not living up to their part of the agreement. They may well be in the clear legally, but what they did was completely and utterly unethical. Any arguments over what Naniwa did is pointless. Even the argument over the severity of the punishment is pointless. The argument should be concerned with the fact that the punishment was completely and utterly unscrupulous disregard to public promises. The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final. It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. MLG are not supposed to ask GOM before every mlg pro circuit event if anything has changed. They will obviously act in accordance with the agreement untill GOM informs THEM that changes have been made. GOM failed to do so. And no, gom posting some graphics on their website about a format change cant be seen as informing MLG.
GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change. The agreement is that GOM has the jurisdiction to adjust placement.
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On December 16 2011 22:10 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:04 Fjodorov wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:51 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:45 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:42 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 21:41 NHY wrote:
GOM told everyone that it was changed. What part of "New GSL format for 2012" don't you get. When? I'm sorry, was it before MLG Providence? Here's the self-quote On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. For the love of god, that's from November 21, a day after the competition, and it's on some random Korean news site. Regardless of the date, they were never in a position to say "eh, we haven't decided yet" without making it known to MLG that they were in fact not living up to their part of the agreement. They may well be in the clear legally, but what they did was completely and utterly unethical. Any arguments over what Naniwa did is pointless. Even the argument over the severity of the punishment is pointless. The argument should be concerned with the fact that the punishment was completely and utterly unscrupulous disregard to public promises. The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final. It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. MLG are not supposed to ask GOM before every mlg pro circuit event if anything has changed. They will obviously act in accordance with the agreement untill GOM informs THEM that changes have been made. GOM failed to do so. And no, gom posting some graphics on their website about a format change cant be seen as informing MLG. GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change. The agreement is that GOM has the jurisdiction to adjust placement.
Do you hear that, peasants. The GOM gives, and the GOM takes away.
Are you serious?
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On December 16 2011 20:55 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor It's really not about NaNi. From what I can tell they are pretending they changed the format before the Blizzard Cup, but the OP has no link to the announcement (if there is an announcement that shows they didn't retroactively change the format I'd like to see it). The first tweet said NaNi had been "baned" from GSL, because even the Koreans believed he had EARNED the spot. It would be all fine and good, it is certainly GOM's "right" to ban a player for misconduct, IF the rules are clear. But, the took an ambiguous rule and applied it here when we can apply offensive behavior to MC knocking on the glass of his opponent's booth, Keen's hilarious ceremonies, or even NesTea admitting he wasn't giving it his all in the All Star matches. So the problem isn't about NaNi. The problem is that GOM takes us all for granted. They don't appreciate the foreign players. They applied an ambiguous rule to ban a player from their tournament and this is the first this rule has been used to my knowledge. Then, to further justify their actions they break their partnership with MLG without MLG's knowledge treating a large foreign event organizer like a parent treats their child (or as reddit put it Darth Vader treats Lando). How would our community react if MLG decided that MLG Providence didn't count for the agreement and didn't pay for four players from Korea to come play? They even payed for MVP who wasn't even in pool play. I don't see any way these actions are justified. "Moving on" would be all fine and good if such actions weren't so reprehensible. They signify a disrespect for our community, we had no official announcement, we had a botched tweet (which contained the most truth GOM has presented to us in the last week) and even MLG, casters, community figures, etc have their hands in the air saying "I don't know shit!" So if GOM or MLG want to move on that's fine, but I won't watch the GSL until they apologize and admit they were hypocrites for claiming they understand the values of professionalism.
Believe me, most Korean fans didn't know whether NaNiwa would be granted Code S or not because He won second place in Providence. Why? because they knew winning in MLG had NaNiwa earn Blizzard Cup seed, not Code S. And they probably expected that he is most likely to receive Code S because he has performed well in overall in MLG. You want the link? well all the articles are in Korean so just use Google Translator if you can't read.
Nov. 21th : Would NaNiwa who had performed well in MLG be invited to Code S? http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=940944&board=0&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=title&search=나니와&orderby=&token=
May. 14th : LxP between GSL and MLG : http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=2816961
Nov. 21th : Blizzard Cup - the list of 10 qualified player and specified plan for upcoming event : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=24421&p=1
Oct. 12th : Sudden change in the rule for upcoming Blizzard cuphttp://esports.gamechosun.co.kr/board/view.php?bid=sc2e&num=40452
Original Rule : Top 10 player based on GSL points will be qualified to enter Blizzard Cup
Revised Rule : Top 3 players based on GSL points, and players who performed well in MLG, IGN Pro-Lauge(IPL), Blizzcon 2011, WCG will be qualified to enter Blizzard CUp.
Oct. 27th : Plan for upcoming 2012 GSL (Gom announces changes in format for 2012 GSL)
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=896871&category=102
Dec. 10th : More specified version of 2012 GSL plan : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23974&c=info&p=1
Phew~..
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On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Show nested quote +Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical.
If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago.
Can you specify what is it that you think GOM did to be called unethical?
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On December 16 2011 06:46 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:41 oBlade wrote:On December 16 2011 06:30 ZeromuS wrote:The outline of Blizzard CUP is as follows:
Players: Best 10 of 2011
- 2011 GSL Point Ranking TOP 1,2,3 (3)
- 1st and 2nd place of MLG Providence (2)
- Winner of IEM NYC (1)
- Winner of IPL Season 3 (1)
- Winner of DreamHack Winter (1)
- Winner of Blizzcon (1)
- Winner of WCG (1)
- If players have more than one title, suitable replacements will be invited From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272406Posted October 6th. This seems more like a misunderstanding than anything else. We all knew Providence would also go to the Blizzard Cup. We thought it was a bonus. It's not unfathomable that the top player from Providence would get Code S *and* 1st and 2nd place could go to the Blizzard Cup. We didn't think they were mutually exclusive seeds. Imagine if 1st and 2nd place at Providence had both been Code S players and Naniwa got 3rd. Then we would still have thought Naniwa had Code S, but that he wouldn't be going to the Blizzard Cup. ... And even under GOM's statement, he would have gone to GSL but for the Nestea incident. This rule change did not hurt Naniwa. Under either the old rule or the new rule, he was going to Code S before the Nestea game. He received punishment from GOM for the Nestea game. We can argue all day about whether the punishment fits the crime, but the rule change itself did not hurt Naniwa (unless you argue that under the old rule GOM would have no right to revoke Code S from any player).
Gom said it was not punishment, because GSL code S seed never belonged to Naniwa.
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On December 16 2011 22:10 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:04 Fjodorov wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:51 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:45 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:42 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 21:41 NHY wrote:
GOM told everyone that it was changed. What part of "New GSL format for 2012" don't you get. When? I'm sorry, was it before MLG Providence? Here's the self-quote On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. For the love of god, that's from November 21, a day after the competition, and it's on some random Korean news site. Regardless of the date, they were never in a position to say "eh, we haven't decided yet" without making it known to MLG that they were in fact not living up to their part of the agreement. They may well be in the clear legally, but what they did was completely and utterly unethical. Any arguments over what Naniwa did is pointless. Even the argument over the severity of the punishment is pointless. The argument should be concerned with the fact that the punishment was completely and utterly unscrupulous disregard to public promises. The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final. It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. MLG are not supposed to ask GOM before every mlg pro circuit event if anything has changed. They will obviously act in accordance with the agreement untill GOM informs THEM that changes have been made. GOM failed to do so. And no, gom posting some graphics on their website about a format change cant be seen as informing MLG. GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change. The agreement is that GOM has the jurisdiction to adjust placement.
We all know by now that GOMs actions werent illegal. The point is that GOM makes a huge deal about their core values such as professionalism. Are you telling me you think its professional to not inform their business partner about changes regarding prizes in their biggest tournament of the year? If you dont give a shit about professionalism and ethics then I understand your point, though that doesnt change the fact that GOM is very flexible, to say the least, about heir values.
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On December 16 2011 20:55 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor It's really not about NaNi. From what I can tell they are pretending they changed the format before the Blizzard Cup, but the OP has no link to the announcement (if there is an announcement that shows they didn't retroactively change the format I'd like to see it). The first tweet said NaNi had been "baned" from GSL, because even the Koreans believed he had EARNED the spot. It would be all fine and good, it is certainly GOM's "right" to ban a player for misconduct, IF the rules are clear. But, the took an ambiguous rule and applied it here when we can apply offensive behavior to MC knocking on the glass of his opponent's booth, Keen's hilarious ceremonies, or even NesTea admitting he wasn't giving it his all in the All Star matches. So the problem isn't about NaNi. The problem is that GOM takes us all for granted. They don't appreciate the foreign players. They applied an ambiguous rule to ban a player from their tournament and this is the first this rule has been used to my knowledge. Then, to further justify their actions they break their partnership with MLG without MLG's knowledge treating a large foreign event organizer like a parent treats their child (or as reddit put it Darth Vader treats Lando). How would our community react if MLG decided that MLG Providence didn't count for the agreement and didn't pay for four players from Korea to come play? They even payed for MVP who wasn't even in pool play. I don't see any way these actions are justified. "Moving on" would be all fine and good if such actions weren't so reprehensible. They signify a disrespect for our community, we had no official announcement, we had a botched tweet (which contained the most truth GOM has presented to us in the last week) and even MLG, casters, community figures, etc have their hands in the air saying "I don't know shit!" So if GOM or MLG want to move on that's fine, but I won't watch the GSL until they apologize and admit they were hypocrites for claiming they understand the values of professionalism.
Believe me, most Korean fans didn't know whether NaNiwa would be granted Code S or not because He won second place in Providence. Why? because they knew winning in MLG had NaNiwa earn Blizzard Cup seed, not Code S. And they probably expected that he is most likely to receive Code S because he has performed well in overall in MLG. You want the link? well all the articles are in Korean so just use Google Translator if you can't read.
Nov. 21th : Would NaNiwa who had performed well in MLG be invited to Code S? http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=940944&board=0&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=title&search=나니와&orderby=&token=
May. 14th : LxP between GSL and MLG : http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=2816961
=> MLG Colombus and MLG Anathem are the only two MLG game that Gom officially announced tournament that has LxP. There aren't any information regarding about tournament after MLG Colombus like Province will be implied the same rule as MLG Colombus and MLG Anathem.
Nov. 21th : Blizzard Cup - the list of 10 qualified player and specified plan for upcoming event : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=24421&p=1
- read the article below. Top 10 qualifiers are decided according to new rule for Blizzard cup.
Oct. 12th : Sudden change in the rule for upcoming Blizzard cuphttp://esports.gamechosun.co.kr/board/view.php?bid=sc2e&num=40452
Original Rule : Top 10 player based on GSL points will be qualified to enter Blizzard Cup
Revised Rule : Top 3 players based on GSL points, and players who performed well in MLG, IGN Pro-Lauge(IPL), Blizzcon 2011, WCG will be qualified to enter Blizzard CUp.
=> This is how NaNiwa earned Blizzard Cup seed through winning second place in MLG.
Oct. 27th : Plan for upcoming 2012 GSL (Gom announces changes in format for 2012 GSL)
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=896871&category=102
"시드는 총 10장이다. 우승자를 비롯해 8위까지 8명만이 차기 시즌 시드를 받는다. 여기에 후원사 시드 2장이 마련됐다. 후원사 시드는 해외 대회에서 좋은 활약을 펼친 선수들이나 두각을 드러내고 있는 외국인 선수들에게 돌아갈 가능성이 높다."
"There are 10 seeds. Top 8 players from previous season will be granted seed for next season. In addition, there are two sponsor seed. It's most likely that a foreign player who performed well in Internationale tournament or a player who stands out on overall game will have a higher chance of receiving sponsor seed."
Dec. 10th : More specified version of 2012 GSL plan : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23974&c=info&p=1
Phew~..[
Edit : Would someone willing to translate those articles into English? My English isn't that good 
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On December 16 2011 22:16 Skyreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:55 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor It's really not about NaNi. From what I can tell they are pretending they changed the format before the Blizzard Cup, but the OP has no link to the announcement (if there is an announcement that shows they didn't retroactively change the format I'd like to see it). The first tweet said NaNi had been "baned" from GSL, because even the Koreans believed he had EARNED the spot. It would be all fine and good, it is certainly GOM's "right" to ban a player for misconduct, IF the rules are clear. But, the took an ambiguous rule and applied it here when we can apply offensive behavior to MC knocking on the glass of his opponent's booth, Keen's hilarious ceremonies, or even NesTea admitting he wasn't giving it his all in the All Star matches. So the problem isn't about NaNi. The problem is that GOM takes us all for granted. They don't appreciate the foreign players. They applied an ambiguous rule to ban a player from their tournament and this is the first this rule has been used to my knowledge. Then, to further justify their actions they break their partnership with MLG without MLG's knowledge treating a large foreign event organizer like a parent treats their child (or as reddit put it Darth Vader treats Lando). How would our community react if MLG decided that MLG Providence didn't count for the agreement and didn't pay for four players from Korea to come play? They even payed for MVP who wasn't even in pool play. I don't see any way these actions are justified. "Moving on" would be all fine and good if such actions weren't so reprehensible. They signify a disrespect for our community, we had no official announcement, we had a botched tweet (which contained the most truth GOM has presented to us in the last week) and even MLG, casters, community figures, etc have their hands in the air saying "I don't know shit!" So if GOM or MLG want to move on that's fine, but I won't watch the GSL until they apologize and admit they were hypocrites for claiming they understand the values of professionalism. Believe me, most Korean fans didn't know whether NaNiwa would be granted Code S or not because He won second place in Providence. Why? because they knew winning in MLG had NaNiwa earn Blizzard Cup seed, not Code S. And they probably expected that he is most likely to receive Code S because he has performed well in overall in MLG. You want the link? well all the articles are in Korean so just use Google Translator if you can't read. Nov. 21th : Would NaNiwa who had performed well in MLG be invited to Code S? http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=940944&board=0&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=title&search=나니와&orderby=&token=May. 14th : LxP between GSL and MLG : http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=2816961Nov. 21th : Blizzard Cup - the list of 10 qualified player and specified plan for upcoming event : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=24421&p=1Oct. 12th : Sudden change in the rule for upcoming Blizzard cuphttp://esports.gamechosun.co.kr/board/view.php?bid=sc2e&num=40452 Original Rule : Top 10 player based on GSL points will be qualified to enter Blizzard Cup Revised Rule : Top 3 players based on GSL points, and players who performed well in MLG, IGN Pro-Lauge(IPL), Blizzcon 2011, WCG will be qualified to enter Blizzard CUp. Oct. 27th : Plan for upcoming 2012 GSL (Gom announces changes in format for 2012 GSL) http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=896871&category=102Dec. 10th : More specified version of 2012 GSL plan : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23974&c=info&p=1Phew~..
All of these articles are specifically about the Blizzard Cup, except the Nov 21st one, which was a statement made after Nani had placed high enough to be seeded according to the publicized exchange program.
The Blizzard cup is irrelevant to the MLG/GSL exchange program, and GOM never announced that the deal no longer extended to Providence, which was explicitly a deal for seeding into Code S, not some random tournament.
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On December 16 2011 22:16 Skyreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:55 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor It's really not about NaNi. From what I can tell they are pretending they changed the format before the Blizzard Cup, but the OP has no link to the announcement (if there is an announcement that shows they didn't retroactively change the format I'd like to see it). The first tweet said NaNi had been "baned" from GSL, because even the Koreans believed he had EARNED the spot. It would be all fine and good, it is certainly GOM's "right" to ban a player for misconduct, IF the rules are clear. But, the took an ambiguous rule and applied it here when we can apply offensive behavior to MC knocking on the glass of his opponent's booth, Keen's hilarious ceremonies, or even NesTea admitting he wasn't giving it his all in the All Star matches. So the problem isn't about NaNi. The problem is that GOM takes us all for granted. They don't appreciate the foreign players. They applied an ambiguous rule to ban a player from their tournament and this is the first this rule has been used to my knowledge. Then, to further justify their actions they break their partnership with MLG without MLG's knowledge treating a large foreign event organizer like a parent treats their child (or as reddit put it Darth Vader treats Lando). How would our community react if MLG decided that MLG Providence didn't count for the agreement and didn't pay for four players from Korea to come play? They even payed for MVP who wasn't even in pool play. I don't see any way these actions are justified. "Moving on" would be all fine and good if such actions weren't so reprehensible. They signify a disrespect for our community, we had no official announcement, we had a botched tweet (which contained the most truth GOM has presented to us in the last week) and even MLG, casters, community figures, etc have their hands in the air saying "I don't know shit!" So if GOM or MLG want to move on that's fine, but I won't watch the GSL until they apologize and admit they were hypocrites for claiming they understand the values of professionalism. Believe me, most Korean fans didn't know whether NaNiwa would be granted Code S or not because He won second place in Providence. Why? because they knew winning in MLG had NaNiwa earn Blizzard Cup seed, not Code S. And they probably expected that he is most likely to receive Code S because he has performed well in overall in MLG. You want the link? well all the articles are in Korean so just use Google Translator if you can't read. Nov. 21th : Would NaNiwa who had performed well in MLG be invited to Code S? http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=940944&board=0&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=title&search=나니와&orderby=&token=May. 14th : LxP between GSL and MLG : http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=2816961Nov. 21th : Blizzard Cup - the list of 10 qualified player and specified plan for upcoming event : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=24421&p=1Oct. 12th : Sudden change in the rule for upcoming Blizzard cuphttp://esports.gamechosun.co.kr/board/view.php?bid=sc2e&num=40452 Original Rule : Top 10 player based on GSL points will be qualified to enter Blizzard Cup Revised Rule : Top 3 players based on GSL points, and players who performed well in MLG, IGN Pro-Lauge(IPL), Blizzcon 2011, WCG will be qualified to enter Blizzard CUp. Oct. 27th : Plan for upcoming 2012 GSL (Gom announces changes in format for 2012 GSL) http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=896871&category=102Dec. 10th : More specified version of 2012 GSL plan : http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23974&c=info&p=1Phew~..
Seriously, this is even worse than retro-actively changing the GSL seeds for providence.
You are seriously saying that GOM knew since October that there was no guaranteed Code S status for Naniwa, despite their agreement with MLG. Without informing MLG, or the foreign community at all?!
This is a slap in the face to the foreign SC2 community.
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On December 16 2011 22:12 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:10 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:04 Fjodorov wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:51 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:45 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:42 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 21:41 NHY wrote:
GOM told everyone that it was changed. What part of "New GSL format for 2012" don't you get. When? I'm sorry, was it before MLG Providence? Here's the self-quote On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. For the love of god, that's from November 21, a day after the competition, and it's on some random Korean news site. Regardless of the date, they were never in a position to say "eh, we haven't decided yet" without making it known to MLG that they were in fact not living up to their part of the agreement. They may well be in the clear legally, but what they did was completely and utterly unethical. Any arguments over what Naniwa did is pointless. Even the argument over the severity of the punishment is pointless. The argument should be concerned with the fact that the punishment was completely and utterly unscrupulous disregard to public promises. The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final. It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. MLG are not supposed to ask GOM before every mlg pro circuit event if anything has changed. They will obviously act in accordance with the agreement untill GOM informs THEM that changes have been made. GOM failed to do so. And no, gom posting some graphics on their website about a format change cant be seen as informing MLG. GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change. The agreement is that GOM has the jurisdiction to adjust placement. Do you hear that, peasants. The GOM gives, and the GOM takes away. Are you serious?
I just re-stated MLG's announcement. If you are surpised then you should read OP first.
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On December 16 2011 22:23 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:12 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:10 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:04 Fjodorov wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:51 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:45 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:42 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 21:41 NHY wrote:
GOM told everyone that it was changed. What part of "New GSL format for 2012" don't you get. When? I'm sorry, was it before MLG Providence? Here's the self-quote On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. For the love of god, that's from November 21, a day after the competition, and it's on some random Korean news site. Regardless of the date, they were never in a position to say "eh, we haven't decided yet" without making it known to MLG that they were in fact not living up to their part of the agreement. They may well be in the clear legally, but what they did was completely and utterly unethical. Any arguments over what Naniwa did is pointless. Even the argument over the severity of the punishment is pointless. The argument should be concerned with the fact that the punishment was completely and utterly unscrupulous disregard to public promises. The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final. It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. MLG are not supposed to ask GOM before every mlg pro circuit event if anything has changed. They will obviously act in accordance with the agreement untill GOM informs THEM that changes have been made. GOM failed to do so. And no, gom posting some graphics on their website about a format change cant be seen as informing MLG. GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change. The agreement is that GOM has the jurisdiction to adjust placement. Do you hear that, peasants. The GOM gives, and the GOM takes away. Are you serious? I just re-stated MLG's announcement. If you are surpised then you should read OP first.
"GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change."
This part is on you.
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Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical.
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format
Note that all these links are from before Providence.
There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL.
Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue.
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game).
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Kespa coming soon changing rules whenever they want
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On December 16 2011 22:27 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:23 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:12 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:10 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:04 Fjodorov wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:51 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:45 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 21:42 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 21:41 NHY wrote:
GOM told everyone that it was changed. What part of "New GSL format for 2012" don't you get. When? I'm sorry, was it before MLG Providence? Here's the self-quote On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. For the love of god, that's from November 21, a day after the competition, and it's on some random Korean news site. Regardless of the date, they were never in a position to say "eh, we haven't decided yet" without making it known to MLG that they were in fact not living up to their part of the agreement. They may well be in the clear legally, but what they did was completely and utterly unethical. Any arguments over what Naniwa did is pointless. Even the argument over the severity of the punishment is pointless. The argument should be concerned with the fact that the punishment was completely and utterly unscrupulous disregard to public promises. The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final. It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. MLG are not supposed to ask GOM before every mlg pro circuit event if anything has changed. They will obviously act in accordance with the agreement untill GOM informs THEM that changes have been made. GOM failed to do so. And no, gom posting some graphics on their website about a format change cant be seen as informing MLG. GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change. The agreement is that GOM has the jurisdiction to adjust placement. Do you hear that, peasants. The GOM gives, and the GOM takes away. Are you serious? I just re-stated MLG's announcement. If you are surpised then you should read OP first. "GOM is not obligated to inform MLG of the change." This part is on you.
It can be inferred. MLG says GOM didn't infrom them beforehand but it is still up to GOM.
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On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago.
The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds.
Can you specify what is it that you think GOM did to be called unethical?
They entered a deal through which they publicly declared that Code S seeding was part of the prize package of the MLG 2011 Pro Circuit. They then unilaterally reneged on that for Providence, without making any effort to communicate this to the involved parties, i.e. MLG and the Western esports scene. They made a random comment about "we haven't decided" after Naniwa earned this prize, and then sat on it for almost a month, until Naniwa offended their sensibilities. At this point they said he doesn't get the seed, and that he had never earned the seed in the first place.
That's what I think they did to be called unethical.
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On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game).
It doesn't matter if they intended to deceive or not.
They did.
The fact of the matter is they knew Naniwa was not given a code S spot based on his performance in Providence, yet he, MLG, his team, sponsors, fans, the foreign community... EVERYBODY except GOM (and apparantly the Korean community) thought he was.
They then had the guts to call out another parties lack of professionalism.
And I still don't understand how MLG can not be upset about this at all.
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On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game).
In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match.
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On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor
Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period.
This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too.
This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them.
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Just so everyone is clear, no matter what the rules may, or may not, be, have been, were, are... when Nani 7 probe rushed he lost "a" spot in Code S next season. He was on top of the list to be seeded, and it is likely Sen is his replacement.
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On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game).
The unethical part is not awarding the seed to a player who was told that was part of the prize package. If they meant not to award it, then it's their obligation to inform all parties beforehand. Because they neglected or forgot to tell MLG before Providence that Code S seeds were not being awarded, and MLG couldn't tell players, GOM was ethically obligated to award the prize that was promised.
They added insult to injury by acting like the seed was a favor they may grant or revoke at their whim, when a player actually won it through fair competition.
A disclaimer - I don't like Naniwa at all. I think what he did was stupid, and I agree with most of what Alex Garfield said about the reasons why. My problem is not that GOM punished Naniwa, my problem is with GOM reneging on promises and using what they promised as either a stick or a carrot, whichever suited their interests at the time.
The Code S seed is just as valuable, if not more so, than the cash prizes. Suddenly deciding to not award it, without telling MLG, is like suddenly deciding not to pay out prize money, and not tell MLG.
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EPT
