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On December 16 2011 22:33 skipgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). It doesn't matter if they intended to deceive or not. They did. The fact of the matter is they knew Naniwa was not given a code S spot based on his performance in Providence, yet he, MLG, his team, sponsors, fans, the foreign community... EVERYBODY except GOM (and apparantly the Korean community) thought he was. They then had the guts to call out another parties lack of professionalism. And I still don't understand how MLG can not be upset about this at all.
A dishonest mistake is far worse than an honest mistake. They seem to have made an honest mistake. For me, that's ok and I can move on (and hope they don't make the same mistake again).
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On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match.
But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds".
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On December 16 2011 22:39 jianming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:33 skipgamer wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). It doesn't matter if they intended to deceive or not. They did. The fact of the matter is they knew Naniwa was not given a code S spot based on his performance in Providence, yet he, MLG, his team, sponsors, fans, the foreign community... EVERYBODY except GOM (and apparantly the Korean community) thought he was. They then had the guts to call out another parties lack of professionalism. And I still don't understand how MLG can not be upset about this at all. A dishonest mistake is far worse than an honest mistake. They seem to have made an honest mistake. For me, that's ok and I can move on (and hope they don't make the same mistake again).
The honest mistake became dishonest arrogance when they didn't respond to "everyone entering Providence thought they could win Code S seeding, because you never said otherwise before the event" by awarding Code S seeding.
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On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period. This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too. This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them.
So, what is your point?
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On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds".
But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget.
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On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period. This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too. This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them.
Argh.
The problem with this situation, is that there is nothing to stop GOM from doing it again, unless they issue an apology, admitting fault is incredibly important, even if there are no legal repercussions. Presently, a precedent has been set; there is now nothing to stop them from cancelling an agreement with MLG, IEM, NASL, or any other party with which they make an agreement in the future, without informing them of the change!
Let's assume Naniwa did not probe rush Nestea, he played a straight up game and lost. There is nothing to say GSL weren't going to, or couldn't have turned around and said "you aren't getting a code S spot." Despite him, MLG, his team, his fans, and the entire foreign community thinking that he had already earned it!
If you don't see the problem with that, then there's nothing else I guess I can say that will help you realise what is so inherently and utterly wrong with that situation.
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On December 16 2011 22:44 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds". But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget.
True. The new format and Blizzard Cup seeding still suggests that they were removing MLG seeds, though.
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On December 16 2011 22:44 skipgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period. This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too. This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them. Argh. The problem with this situation, is that there is nothing to stop GOM from doing it again, unless they issue an apology, admitting fault is incredibly important, even if there are no legal repercussions. Presently, a precedent has been set; there is now nothing to stop them from cancelling an agreement with MLG, IEM, NASL, or any other party with which they make an agreement in the future, without informing them of the change! Let's assume Naniwa did not probe rush Nestea, he played a straight up game and lost. There is nothing to say GSL weren't going to, or couldn't have turned around and said "you aren't getting a code S spot." Despite him, MLG, his team, his fans, and the entire foreign community thinking that he had already earned it! If you don't see the problem with that, then there's nothing else I guess I can say that will help you realise what is so inherently and utterly wrong with that situation.
Tighter contracts can prevent this from happening again. It looks liek MLG and GOM agreed beforehand that they could do things like that.
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On December 16 2011 22:48 jianming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds". But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget. True. The new format and Blizzard Cup seeding still suggests that they were removing MLG seeds, though.
Well, we have a different perspective on whether those announcements suggest that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. I don't think so. What we can be sure of is, that no-one interpreted them that way. No-one took from those announcements, that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. Not even GOMs american partner, MLG, who held the tournament.
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On December 16 2011 22:51 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:48 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds". But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget. True. The new format and Blizzard Cup seeding still suggests that they were removing MLG seeds, though. Well, we have a different perspective on whether those announcements suggest that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. I don't think so. What we can be sure of is, that no-one interpreted them that way. No-one took from those announcements, that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. Not even GOMs american partner, MLG, who held the tournament.
Yeah, that's why I think it's just an honest mistake from GOM. Looking back now, and probably from thier perspective at the time, you can see that they were (possibly) removing MLG seeds.
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On December 16 2011 22:55 jianming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:51 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:48 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds". But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget. True. The new format and Blizzard Cup seeding still suggests that they were removing MLG seeds, though. Well, we have a different perspective on whether those announcements suggest that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. I don't think so. What we can be sure of is, that no-one interpreted them that way. No-one took from those announcements, that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. Not even GOMs american partner, MLG, who held the tournament. Yeah, that's why I think it's just an honest mistake from GOM. Looking back now, and probably from thier perspective at the time, you can see that they were (possibly) removing MLG seeds.
Like I said earlier, it stops being an honest mistake when you don't rectify it by awarding the seed anyway, even if you intended not to and just "mistakenly" neglected to inform everyone involved.
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On December 16 2011 22:59 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:55 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:51 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:48 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds". But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget. True. The new format and Blizzard Cup seeding still suggests that they were removing MLG seeds, though. Well, we have a different perspective on whether those announcements suggest that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. I don't think so. What we can be sure of is, that no-one interpreted them that way. No-one took from those announcements, that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. Not even GOMs american partner, MLG, who held the tournament. Yeah, that's why I think it's just an honest mistake from GOM. Looking back now, and probably from thier perspective at the time, you can see that they were (possibly) removing MLG seeds. Like I said earlier, it stops being an honest mistake when you don't rectify it by awarding the seed anyway, even if you intended not to and just "mistakenly" neglected to inform everyone involved.
Well to be fair to them, they haven't been (and won't be) given the chance to rectify it, because of the Blizzard Cup incident. By the time they found out (IF they've realised that they've made a mistake), they've already announced that Naniwa was out of consideration for the seed, because of the Nestea match.
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On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game).
Considering Naniwas and his teams statements, and naniwas personality, its quite obvious that Naniwa didnt INTEND to offend anyone. He has explained how he now has realised what he did was wrong and he didnt see the big picture or realise the impact this would have in a korean environment. GOM didnt consider intent when calling out unprofessionalism, why should you?
To further emphasize the importanze of the gom/mlg issue i would like to point out another thing. Imagine if Naniwas code s spot from MLG was a huge part of quantic gamings signing of Naniwa. Im not saying that this is in fact true but my point is that the consequences from such a huge mistake as the mlg/gom issue can go way beyond what one might first think. Thats why this matter cant be treated lightly.
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On December 16 2011 22:50 jianming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:44 skipgamer wrote:On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period. This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too. This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them. Argh. The problem with this situation, is that there is nothing to stop GOM from doing it again, unless they issue an apology, admitting fault is incredibly important, even if there are no legal repercussions. Presently, a precedent has been set; there is now nothing to stop them from cancelling an agreement with MLG, IEM, NASL, or any other party with which they make an agreement in the future, without informing them of the change! Let's assume Naniwa did not probe rush Nestea, he played a straight up game and lost. There is nothing to say GSL weren't going to, or couldn't have turned around and said "you aren't getting a code S spot." Despite him, MLG, his team, his fans, and the entire foreign community thinking that he had already earned it! If you don't see the problem with that, then there's nothing else I guess I can say that will help you realise what is so inherently and utterly wrong with that situation. Tighter contracts can prevent this from happening again. It looks liek MLG and GOM agreed beforehand that they could do things like that.
It's irrelevant if they agreed beforehand that they could do things like that. They didn't let the players know! MLG were advertising that a Code S seed was a part of the prize for the tournament, therefore a Code S seed WAS a part of the prize for the tournament!!!
Perhaps even the onus may be on MLG, but I really doubt it. I'm sure if they did have an agreement it would have stated that should any changes be made to the agreement it would have to be communicated!
To take a prize away from someone because they broke rules in an unprecedented manner is fine... To say they had never earned the prize in the first place is wrong!
(feel like I've come full circle on my opinion, at least I know some more facts about the situation, but still, there is a massive problem with how it all went down.)
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On December 16 2011 23:03 jianming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:59 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:55 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:51 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:48 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:41 jianming wrote:On December 16 2011 22:36 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). In the figure from the 26th of october, there are 2 Code S seeds with no explanation. There is no reason to believe one of them shouldn't or couldn't be the MLG seed. You cannot infer anything from that *figure. Which is probably why NO-ONE got that impression, and why EVERYONE thought that Providence would grant a code-S seed. That is, until the day after the naniwa vs Nestea match. But since when were two seeds granted from MLGs (or has it always been like that?). That's why I think it's more prudent to look at the "international seeds". But the international seeds go to the Up/down-matches, and seem completely unrelated to what we know of the MLG agreement. But no, there were always only one code-S seed from MLG. And up to 4 code-A seeds, not to forget. True. The new format and Blizzard Cup seeding still suggests that they were removing MLG seeds, though. Well, we have a different perspective on whether those announcements suggest that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. I don't think so. What we can be sure of is, that no-one interpreted them that way. No-one took from those announcements, that there would be no code-S seed from Providence. Not even GOMs american partner, MLG, who held the tournament. Yeah, that's why I think it's just an honest mistake from GOM. Looking back now, and probably from thier perspective at the time, you can see that they were (possibly) removing MLG seeds. Like I said earlier, it stops being an honest mistake when you don't rectify it by awarding the seed anyway, even if you intended not to and just "mistakenly" neglected to inform everyone involved. Well to be fair to them, they haven't been (and won't be) given the chance to rectify it, because of the Blizzard Cup incident. By the time they found out (IF they've realised that they've made a mistake), they've already announced that Naniwa was out of consideration for the seed, because of the Nestea match.
There should be no consideration. Naniwa earned the seed.
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On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:Okay, this is how I think it went. GOM made the changes a while back and didn't tell MLG... was stupid of them, but I wouldn't go as far to say it was unethical. http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=205674&cid=0&kind=8 - old format http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=207912&cid=0&kind=8 - blizzard cup http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740&cid=0&kind=8 - new format Note that all these links are from before Providence. There is a mention of MLG seeds in the old format, but not the new format. You can infer from this that they weren't handing any seeds from Providence, for the new GSL format, so they decided to give two Blizzard Cup spots instead. The fact that the new format grants two international seeds also suggests that they weren't granting seeds from MLG anymore (probably because Koreans kept winning them), since I believe the idea of the exchange program was to get more foreigners into GSL. Now, this is just conjecture and I understand I could be completely wrong, but the story does add up to me. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if GOM give an announcement the issue. It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game).
If this action isn't unethical I don't know what is. So the "Korean community" and GOM want to preach "professionalism" while the organization is kicking a player out of tournament with made-up/outstreched rules, and then say "oh no no, we planned this all along, someone didn't get the message".
It's a slap in the face of their own "professionalism". If you can't set a good rulebook, at least make up your mind.
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On December 16 2011 22:44 skipgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period. This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too. This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them. Argh. The problem with this situation, is that there is nothing to stop GOM from doing it again, unless they issue an apology, admitting fault is incredibly important, even if there are no legal repercussions. Presently, a precedent has been set; there is now nothing to stop them from cancelling an agreement with MLG, IEM, NASL, or any other party with which they make an agreement in the future, without informing them of the change! Let's assume Naniwa did not probe rush Nestea, he played a straight up game and lost. There is nothing to say GSL weren't going to, or couldn't have turned around and said "you aren't getting a code S spot." Despite him, MLG, his team, his fans, and the entire foreign community thinking that he had already earned it! If you don't see the problem with that, then there's nothing else I guess I can say that will help you realise what is so inherently and utterly wrong with that situation.
It doesn't work like that. Reputation is something that's dear to GOM (or any other major business organizations). I don't doubt for a second that GOM has learned from this incident.
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On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds.
The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word?
The format before the change had MLG seed and it was gone for 2012. Instead there were 2 sponsor seeds.
1) They entered a deal through which they publicly declared that Code S seeding was part of the prize package of the MLG 2011 Pro Circuit.
2) They then unilaterally reneged on that for Providence, without making any effort to communicate this to the involved parties, i.e. MLG and the Western esports scene.
3) They made a random comment about "we haven't decided" after Naniwa earned this prize, and then sat on it for almost a month, until Naniwa offended their sensibilities.
4) At this point they said he doesn't get the seed, and that he had never earned the seed in the first place.
That's what I think they did to be called unethical.
1) Nothing there
2) It is up to GOM to decide Code S seed in MLG/GSL exchange, so yeah it was unilateral. When GOM announced their new format it included the change to Code S seed. They could've communicated better, but miscommunication is hardly unethical unless you believe it was done so deliberately to deceive people.
3) Naniwa didn't earn Code S spot. Either GOM is lying about it, in which case you can't make case 2) or GOM is telling the truth, in which case Naniwa didn't earn Code S spot. We also don't know what GOM did since Providence. I don't know personally what conversation took place between NaNiwa and GOM but I'd imagine that GOM told NaNiwa that he was going to get Code S spot for the next season. And for NaNiwa, it would not have occured to him to ask if it was specifically because of MLG/GSL exchange.
4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that?
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Can some one give a link about official original agreement on LxP?
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On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:
Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period.
KeSPA won't jump in...GOM signed an exclusive contract with Blizzard for Korean broadcast rights.
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EPT
