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On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit.
What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up.
Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing.
Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals.
GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals.
Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed.
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On December 16 2011 23:24 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 23:19 hmsrenown wrote:On December 16 2011 23:10 jellyjello wrote:On December 16 2011 22:44 skipgamer wrote:On December 16 2011 22:37 jellyjello wrote:On December 16 2011 20:36 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 16 2011 20:18 jellyjello wrote:
blame game in this thread is epic. it's highly entertaining. what's funny is that neither MLG nor GOM cares; they had already moved on. you really think that GOM doesnt care that half the international community think they have acted in a stupid way? they wont give naniwa his code s-spot back, they acted in affect and to stand up and say "we were wrong, sorry" now is indeed impossible, but i find it highly unlikely they will act in this manner again. i would even say it is unlikely gom will keep having meaningless games in their tournaments, in that way naniwa may have done a e-sports a great favor Go ahead and keep on waiting for GOM's "apology". In the meanwhile, there will be more GSLs and GSTLs, and who knows even KeSPA might jump in the SC2 market, and you know what, people will watch it over and over again, period. This is not to say who is right or wrong in this whole drama. All major parties involved in this incident already came out with each of their own official statement, and they are now moving on to the next thing on their agenda, because you know, esports is a business entity and they can't simply cling on to what had happened. I had my own opinions on the whole matter and I've stated them more than once. I've read all official statements from all parties and understood their positions. And now I've moved on too. This is not the end of the world for Naniwa or GOM. Nani will be back for GSLs and GOM will provide it to him. Nani didn't do any favors for GOM. If anything, Nani was the catalyst that caused this whole shit storm drama. But what is done is done. Seriously, how many dead horses can we beat on? There are a lot of people here who have such unrealistic views on the topic such as demanding that GOM needs to come out clean (what?) and apologize (yeah right...). Who are you to demand an apology from GOM? Technically speaking, GOM doesn't owe you guys anything. If you don't like the way GOM is doing their business, then all you need to do is stop supporting their products. If you feel that you are cheated out of something, then it is in your own right to sue them. Argh. The problem with this situation, is that there is nothing to stop GOM from doing it again, unless they issue an apology, admitting fault is incredibly important, even if there are no legal repercussions. Presently, a precedent has been set; there is now nothing to stop them from cancelling an agreement with MLG, IEM, NASL, or any other party with which they make an agreement in the future, without informing them of the change! Let's assume Naniwa did not probe rush Nestea, he played a straight up game and lost. There is nothing to say GSL weren't going to, or couldn't have turned around and said "you aren't getting a code S spot." Despite him, MLG, his team, his fans, and the entire foreign community thinking that he had already earned it! If you don't see the problem with that, then there's nothing else I guess I can say that will help you realise what is so inherently and utterly wrong with that situation. It doesn't work like that. Reputation is something that's dear to GOM (or any other major business organizations). I don't doubt for a second that GOM has learned from this incident. I'm gonna be honest and say I doubt it. GOM not giving out bans to CoCa while rescinding Nani's spot for either unilateral action without informing players involved or stretching rules for the sole purpose of punishing a specific action. If that's not a double standard I don't know what is. To pile on the issue, MC's antics and Keen's celebration are brushed off as players expressing themselves without disrespecting the other players, a rule on which Nani was punished (or not!)...yeah right. I'll see GOM's action before I believe in their "professionalism". PS: Rescinding a spot or prize (as is the case here) is a big deal, Nani earned the spot through spectacular playing abilities, and he had it taken away for a borderline discipline issue not stipulated in the rules. Unacceptable. You know what is and what isn't there for Code S seed agreement or GSL agreement?
You completely missed my point. The point is the spot was tentatively given to Naniwa, and let's face it, if he did a half-hearted 4-gate, the spot would most likely not have been revoked. My beef with GOM is their actions on this disqualification is grossly negligent at best, not what was in or not in the LXP agreement.
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On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. Show nested quote +4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed.
MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence.
And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule.
They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why?
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On December 16 2011 23:04 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:29 jianming wrote:
It seems GOM made a huge mistake in not telling MLG about the change, and you could even call it unprofessional of them. But it also seems they didnt INTEND to deceive anyone; that's all that should matter when talking about ethics and morals (and when comparing it to someone who INTENTIONALLY took their hand off the keyboard and moved his probes into his opponents base at the start of the game). Considering Naniwas and his teams statements, and naniwas personality, its quite obvious that Naniwa didnt INTEND to offend anyone. He has explained how he now has realised what he did was wrong and he didnt see the big picture or realise the impact this would have in a korean environment. GOM didnt consider intent when calling out unprofessionalism, why should you? To further emphasize the importanze of the gom/mlg issue i would like to point out another thing. Imagine if Naniwas code s spot from MLG was a huge part of quantic gamings signing of Naniwa. Im not saying that this is in fact true but my point is that the consequences from such a huge mistake as the mlg/gom issue can go way beyond what one might first think. Thats why this matter cant be treated lightly.
You say it like GOM was going to take the spot away from Naniwa, even if the probe-rush didn't occur. Naniwa was a strong candidate for the spot and he threw it away.
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On December 16 2011 23:27 ScareCrow` wrote:
You're in a large room, with a divider between two different sections of it. You are here because you were told that there would be $5 dollars up for grabs for someone that attended. There is an announcement made that only one side of the divider gets to hear, stating that instead of $5 dollars you now receive a hat worth $5.
At the end of the day, someone from the side that didn't hear the announcement is chosen to be the lucky winner. He gets a $5 hat. He's confused.
It's not wrong that this hat was now the prize, but not informing everyone involved that the hat was the prize is disrespectful.
More like:
The announcement was made that $5 dollars are up for grabs
The announcement was made that a hat worth $5 is up for grabs
The announcement was made that $5 dollars are no longer up for grabs
The winner gets a hat. He is confused because he thought he was going to win both.
It turns out that he thought that the third announcement was for something else.
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On December 16 2011 23:04 Fjodorov wrote:
Considering Naniwas and his teams statements, and naniwas personality, its quite obvious that Naniwa didnt INTEND to offend anyone. He has explained how he now has realised what he did was wrong and he didnt see the big picture or realise the impact this would have in a korean environment. GOM didnt consider intent when calling out unprofessionalism, why should you?
To further emphasize the importanze of the gom/mlg issue i would like to point out another thing. Imagine if Naniwas code s spot from MLG was a huge part of quantic gamings signing of Naniwa. Im not saying that this is in fact true but my point is that the consequences from such a huge mistake as the mlg/gom issue can go way beyond what one might first think. Thats why this matter cant be treated lightly.
This is the kind of mentality this community has to do away with. "Boys will be boys" or in this case "Naniwa will be Naniwa" is no excuse for his actions. If anything his history of being such a self centered person and his personality should make people be MORE critical of what he did, its about time he got a kick up the backside and realised that other people are directly and indirectly affected by what he did.
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On December 17 2011 00:13 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 23:27 ScareCrow` wrote:
You're in a large room, with a divider between two different sections of it. You are here because you were told that there would be $5 dollars up for grabs for someone that attended. There is an announcement made that only one side of the divider gets to hear, stating that instead of $5 dollars you now receive a hat worth $5.
At the end of the day, someone from the side that didn't hear the announcement is chosen to be the lucky winner. He gets a $5 hat. He's confused.
It's not wrong that this hat was now the prize, but not informing everyone involved that the hat was the prize is disrespectful. More like: The announcement was made that $5 dollars are up for grabs The announcement was made that a hat worth $5 is up for grabs The announcement was made that $5 dollars are no longer up for grabs The winner gets a hat. He is confused because he thought he was going to win both. It turns out that he thought that the third announcement was for something else.
It third announcement was never given to anyone that didn't read playxp, which never even states that this is the case, but that they are thinking about it. Even MLG thought it was still the original agreement.
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1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case.
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On December 17 2011 00:21 Nutm3g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 23:04 Fjodorov wrote:
Considering Naniwas and his teams statements, and naniwas personality, its quite obvious that Naniwa didnt INTEND to offend anyone. He has explained how he now has realised what he did was wrong and he didnt see the big picture or realise the impact this would have in a korean environment. GOM didnt consider intent when calling out unprofessionalism, why should you?
To further emphasize the importanze of the gom/mlg issue i would like to point out another thing. Imagine if Naniwas code s spot from MLG was a huge part of quantic gamings signing of Naniwa. Im not saying that this is in fact true but my point is that the consequences from such a huge mistake as the mlg/gom issue can go way beyond what one might first think. Thats why this matter cant be treated lightly. This is the kind of mentality this community has to do away with. "Boys will be boys" or in this case "Naniwa will be Naniwa" is no excuse for his actions. If anything his history of being such a self centered person and his personality should make people be MORE critical of what he did, its about time he got a kick up the backside and realised that other people are directly and indirectly affected by what he did.
This post is way off topic in this thread, here we have long moved on from Naniwa's actions and are focused more on GOM's/MLG's in regards to not giving Naniwa a code S spot initially (before the chance of him obtaining one was revoked.)
The thread you are looking for is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295033
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On December 16 2011 23:39 Fjodorov wrote:
I really dont get why GOM just dont see how it would benefit them to make a statement and apologize to MLG and to the players attending MLG providence. They dont even have to mention Naniwa. Quantic gaming and Naniwa knew what had to be done and came out with an apology when they had offended ppl. Im pretty sure Naniwa doesnt think what he did was truly wrong but he realises he offended ppl and thus did the professional thing. Now GOM has offended lots of ppl and they fail to live up to professional standards.
I'm not an expert on Korean culture, but my guess is it's their pride stopping them to do it or realize it's what they should do.
If they got their pride out of the way, and tried to make the best of this, I think everyone involved would love to see GOM put on a Best of 5 (or 7) showmatch between Nestea and Naniwa, giving Naniwa a chance to show his professionalism and new-found understanding of the Korean definition of a pro-gamer so that they can once again consider him as the top contender for the Code S seed, and give Nestea a chance to beat Naniwa for honor.
I have no hopes whatsoever that they'll do anything of the sort though.
And hey, an interesting side-note that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else:
During the Live on Three, SirScoots said that EG had been informed weeks ago that Idra was getting a Code S invitation, and that it wasn't Idra getting Naniwa's spot. This begs the question: Why was EG informed weeks ago that Idra was getting an invitation, but Naniwa wasn't? They were both considered for invitation, but somehow GOM never contacted Naniwa about it. I'm sure there's some sort of explanation... but we can only speculate. I'd really like to know though.
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On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why?
I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument.
I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement.
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On December 17 2011 00:26 ScareCrow` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:27 ScareCrow` wrote:
You're in a large room, with a divider between two different sections of it. You are here because you were told that there would be $5 dollars up for grabs for someone that attended. There is an announcement made that only one side of the divider gets to hear, stating that instead of $5 dollars you now receive a hat worth $5.
At the end of the day, someone from the side that didn't hear the announcement is chosen to be the lucky winner. He gets a $5 hat. He's confused.
It's not wrong that this hat was now the prize, but not informing everyone involved that the hat was the prize is disrespectful. More like: The announcement was made that $5 dollars are up for grabs The announcement was made that a hat worth $5 is up for grabs The announcement was made that $5 dollars are no longer up for grabs The winner gets a hat. He is confused because he thought he was going to win both. It turns out that he thought that the third announcement was for something else. It third announcement was never given to anyone that didn't read playxp, which never even states that this is the case, but that they are thinking about it. Even MLG thought it was still the original agreement.
All announcements are made in the same manner.
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On December 17 2011 00:29 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:26 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:27 ScareCrow` wrote:
You're in a large room, with a divider between two different sections of it. You are here because you were told that there would be $5 dollars up for grabs for someone that attended. There is an announcement made that only one side of the divider gets to hear, stating that instead of $5 dollars you now receive a hat worth $5.
At the end of the day, someone from the side that didn't hear the announcement is chosen to be the lucky winner. He gets a $5 hat. He's confused.
It's not wrong that this hat was now the prize, but not informing everyone involved that the hat was the prize is disrespectful. More like: The announcement was made that $5 dollars are up for grabs The announcement was made that a hat worth $5 is up for grabs The announcement was made that $5 dollars are no longer up for grabs The winner gets a hat. He is confused because he thought he was going to win both. It turns out that he thought that the third announcement was for something else. It third announcement was never given to anyone that didn't read playxp, which never even states that this is the case, but that they are thinking about it. Even MLG thought it was still the original agreement. All announcements are made in the same manner.
Could you show me where they said this? Because literally every person outside of the korean community missed it.
Edit: And just for clarity, why wouldn't it be part of an announcement to...inform the tournament involved. Or the players.
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On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:
GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals.
Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed.
There was nothing, that indicated, that MLG no longer award player with code S spot, as new system can easily accommodate existing at that time agreements, which is evident by the fact that no one, outside GOM circle, interpreted it that way.
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On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case.
1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone
2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened?
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On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened?
GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved.
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On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement.
You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation.
We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from.
You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else.
And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change...
I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much.
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On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened?
That line of reasoning is irrelevant, because GOM did not based their decision to take away code S seed on MLG upholding or not that part of a bargain, even in case that MLG didn't (I think they did, to the best of their ability) it wont make one iota of difference in this discussion.
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Naniwa or no Naniwa, this is unethical business practise and highly unproffesional from GOM. As a business partner, team, player or customer I would have a hard time trusting them in the future.
gg
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On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved.
GOM's announcement of new format for 2012
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740
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EPT
