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On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740
Oh my god we actually are going in circles again...
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On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740
Nowhere does that state that Providence will no longer reward code S.
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One thing is certain... Last GSL season was my last thatvi pay for even thoug I watched all of them before.
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On December 17 2011 00:38 skipgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 21:57 NHY wrote:
The news article was not written after the tournament. It was written when NaNiwa made winners bracket final.
It seems that GOM didn't tell MLG specifically, but they did announce the change publicly. Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it. Edit: The part where "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement" is also the part of the agreement. I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement. You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation. We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from. You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else. And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change... I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much.
Are you telling me that every single person on foreign comunity, teams, players, etc all assumed that MLG seed will be included in 2 Code S seeds and not one person thought to ask GOM if that's the case? Are you really comfortable with that?
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On December 17 2011 00:51 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:38 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:
[quote]
Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it.
[quote]
I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement. You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation. We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from. You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else. And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change... I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much. Are you telling me that every single person on TL assumed that MLG seed will be included in 2 seeds and not one person thought to ask GOM if that's the case? Are you really comfortable with that?
Are you telling me that every single person on GOMTV assumed that everyone had understand that providence would not be included in the 2 seeds, even tho everyone on TL, MLG and GOMTV forum was saying otherwise... and not one persone thought that telling MLG, TL or GOMTV english forum about the case? Are you really comfortable with that?
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On December 17 2011 00:51 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:38 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:
[quote]
Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it.
[quote]
I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement. You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation. We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from. You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else. And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change... I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much. Are you telling me that every single person on foreign comunity, teams, players, etc all assumed that MLG seed will be included in 2 seeds and not one person thought to ask GOM if that's the case? Are you really comfortable with that?
That's exactly the case. MLG themselves have said that was in the agreement they made with GOM. And that they didn't know anything about what only recently came to light.
We aren't comfortable with that. That's why so many people are so riled up.
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On December 17 2011 00:51 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:38 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:
[quote]
Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it.
[quote]
I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement. You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation. We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from. You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else. And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change... I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much. Are you telling me that every single person on TL assumed that MLG seed will be included in 2 seeds and not one person thought to ask GOM if that's the case? Are you really comfortable with that?
I'm pretty sure at least 95% of us, beside some Koreans who are in touch with both communities believed this to be the case.
Given our knowledge, what you are asking of us is to assume that GOM could change the seed at any time and we have to consistently keep re-asking them if the agreement is still in effect.
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On December 17 2011 00:21 Nutm3g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 23:04 Fjodorov wrote:
Considering Naniwas and his teams statements, and naniwas personality, its quite obvious that Naniwa didnt INTEND to offend anyone. He has explained how he now has realised what he did was wrong and he didnt see the big picture or realise the impact this would have in a korean environment. GOM didnt consider intent when calling out unprofessionalism, why should you?
To further emphasize the importanze of the gom/mlg issue i would like to point out another thing. Imagine if Naniwas code s spot from MLG was a huge part of quantic gamings signing of Naniwa. Im not saying that this is in fact true but my point is that the consequences from such a huge mistake as the mlg/gom issue can go way beyond what one might first think. Thats why this matter cant be treated lightly. This is the kind of mentality this community has to do away with. "Boys will be boys" or in this case "Naniwa will be Naniwa" is no excuse for his actions. If anything his history of being such a self centered person and his personality should make people be MORE critical of what he did, its about time he got a kick up the backside and realised that other people are directly and indirectly affected by what he did.
Dont you get it? Im not saying what Naniwa did was ok. I am however saying that GOM did not consider intent when dealing with Naniwa and preaching professionalism, yet there are people in this thread arguing that GOM should be let of the hook when it comes to MLG/GOM issue because there was no bad intent. I am all for punishing Naniwa even thou i know he didnt intend to offend anyone. I am also not afraid to call GOMs actions regarding the mlg issue unprofessional, even thou there was no bad intent. You see? Consistency is important when you jump in to moral and ethics.
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On December 17 2011 00:54 ScareCrow` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:51 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:38 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:
[quote]
If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement. You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation. We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from. You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else. And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change... I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much. Are you telling me that every single person on TL assumed that MLG seed will be included in 2 seeds and not one person thought to ask GOM if that's the case? Are you really comfortable with that? I'm pretty sure at least 95% of us, beside some Koreans who are in touch with both communities believed this to be the case. Given our knowledge, what you are asking of us is to assume that GOM could change the seed at any time and we have to consistently keep re-asking them if the agreement is still in effect.
I really feel like Lando ><.
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On December 17 2011 00:51 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:38 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 00:27 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:05 Xalorian wrote:On December 17 2011 00:00 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 23:20 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 23:13 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:32 yeint wrote:On December 16 2011 22:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 22:05 yeint wrote:
[quote]
Making the winners bracket final means he's the highest placing non-Code S player and that means he's earned Code S, no matter what. So they announced the change after Naniwa earned it.
[quote]
I'm not claiming they're not legally allowed to do what they did. I'm claiming what they did is incredibly unethical. If you can't read the article because it is in Korean, then stop making assumptions. The article is about whether NaNiwa will be invited to GSL now that he is the highest non-code S player in Providence. It's not any kind of announcement. The announcement was a month ago. The announcement a month ago didn't say a damn thing about GOM unilaterally ending the MLG/GSL exhange program, which explicitly stated that during all the 2011 pro circuit events, the highest placing non-Code S player would be awarded a Code S seed. All it said was that their format for code S was changing, and that format included two foreign seeds. The so called agreement also states that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool for all the 2011 pro circuit events. Where's your outrage at MLG for not keeping their exact word? I already addressed this ridiculous point, but I'll do it again. GOM doesn't care if 4 more Koreans get sent to the finals. It doesn't benefit them, it in fact hinders them by causing scheduling issues for players. Koreans being sent to MLG is the "What MLG wants" part of the deal. The "What GOM wants" part of the deal is getting foreign fan favorites seeded into Code S. Neither party represents actual players so they don't really give a shit who goes where, as long as viewer numbers increase. Also, there is no championship pool at the finals. This was know from the start of the 2011 circuit. What GOM cares or wants is irrelevant. There is no need to bring it up. Yes, there were no championship pools at Providence, hence MLG didn't honor the agreement to the letter (from what we know from press release). I know that Providence had no championship pool planned and that it was known since the beginning of LxP. But the agreement says that 4 Koreans will be placed into Championsip Pool in each 2011 pro circuit events. MLG had ample time to theoretically change the rules for Providence to honor the agreement, just like they did to accommodate LxP in all other events, yet they didn't. Did MLG explain why they broke the agreement? They probably didn't break the agreement because there would be exceptions and what not on the actual agreement. But from public's point of view, they didn't honor what they said they were going to do just like people are accusing GOM of doing. 4) He didn't earn it. What's the problem with saying that? Because it's not true. The fact that GOM unilaterally decided they didn't feel like honoring the agreement that was made public doesn't mean they're not ethically bound to honor it. Naniwa, and everyone else, entered Providence with the knowledge that Code S seeding was part of the rewards offered. It was GOM's responsibility to publicize that this wasn't the case BEFORE the tournament, not make some statement in Korean once Naniwa was already in the finals. GOM publicized the change as much as the original announcement, well before NaNiwa reached finals. Also, you can't blame GOM for not giving the seed and then say they gave the seed. MLG paid for 4 Koreans. They were not seeded in the pool play, since there was NO POOL PLAY, but everything was paid by MLG for them. Travel, food, hotel, etc. And it was part of the LXP deal, as stated on the MLG website way before Providence. And MLG tweeted that Providence was part of the deal when they made it. I'm pretty sure that GOMTV knew that there was no pool play, but it was still part of the deal. And GOMTV had AMPLE TIME to inform MLG, Naniwa and us, that they would change their rule. They did not, but they all knew that we thought that Naniwa was seeded in Code S. Why? I know that they paid for 4 Koreans. That doesn't change my argument. I don't know what you believe GOM's responsibilities are in informing the public about the change, but they did so in the same manner as the original announcement. You're still offering that point of view? GOM's "announcement" was cryptic at best and no foreigners at the time thought it meant seeds for the new GSL structure were not taken from MLG. There was no wording in english at all that explained the situation. We tackled this a few pages ago, it was just an image that in no way specified where the "international" seeds came from. You provided MANY links to Korean sites addressing the news, but not one in English, from GOM or anyone else. And there is still no explanation as to why GOM didn't inform MLG of the change... I mean we can go in circles all day in this thread if we want... But it's not really accomplishing much. Are you telling me that every single person on foreign comunity, teams, players, etc all assumed that MLG seed will be included in 2 Code S seeds and not one person thought to ask GOM if that's the case? Are you really comfortable with that?
YES!!!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279855¤tpage=All
This was the tl thread. Notice how many people are asking where the two spots are from? Just do a quick ctrl-F for "mlg" and you will see how confused the foreign community was on the topic!
Yet every single one assumed one of the two spots was from MLG!!! (or they were unsure where the MLG seeds fit into the whole thing at all.)
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On December 17 2011 00:47 ScareCrow` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740 Nowhere does that state that Providence will no longer reward code S.
There is no mention of MLG, and you just assume that it would be there?
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On December 17 2011 00:58 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:47 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740 Nowhere does that state that Providence will no longer reward code S. There is no mention of MLG, and you just assume that it would be there?
Of course people would assume they would be there, because MLG did!!! Neither MLG nor GSL stated anywhere that there was no GSL code S seed. And in fact MLG stated on many occasions that there was, so why would anyone question it?
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According to NHY the whole world should know that this "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement." is a part of MLG/GOMs contract. Come on...
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On December 17 2011 00:58 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:47 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740 Nowhere does that state that Providence will no longer reward code S. There is no mention of MLG, and you just assume that it would be there?
Wow. I think that you are actually so bad at defending your point, that you are helping us.
Do you know about landover baptist church?
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On December 17 2011 01:01 Fjodorov wrote:
According to NHY the whole world should know that this "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement." is a part of MLG/GOMs contract. Come on...
I don't think anyone's arguing about how strange it is that they are allowed to adjust the contract (which is a really weird business model...) but you should at least inform your business partners and the people involved that there was a change.
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Yeah this isn't going anywhere. Pretty much everyone is on the same page. Think the next step is GOM's reaction. So I'll wait for that.
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On December 17 2011 01:01 skipgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:58 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:47 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740 Nowhere does that state that Providence will no longer reward code S. There is no mention of MLG, and you just assume that it would be there? Of course people would assume they would be there, because MLG did!!! Neither MLG nor GSL stated anywhere that there was no GSL code S seed. And in fact MLG stated on many occasions that there was, so why would anyone question it?
You believed what MLG told you and it turned out to be not true. Clearly, GSL must be held responsible.
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On December 17 2011 01:03 ScareCrow` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 01:01 Fjodorov wrote:
According to NHY the whole world should know that this "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement." is a part of MLG/GOMs contract. Come on... I don't think anyone's arguing about how strange it is that they are allowed to adjust the contract (which is a really weird business model...) but you should at least inform your business partners and the people involved that there was a change.
Yeah i agree with you. I was trying to point out to NHY how ridiculous it is to assume that everyone should have known about the way this contract was written.
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On December 17 2011 01:08 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 01:01 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 00:58 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:47 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:45 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:35 ScareCrow` wrote:On December 17 2011 00:33 NHY wrote:On December 17 2011 00:26 eshlow wrote:
1. Naniwa is being punished by GOM for being unprofessional. I think most of all of us agree that this is likely necessary. However, it has no bearing on the other points within the discussion, at least until you consider them as a whole.
2a. If GOM changed format before MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. This is unprofessional.
2b. If GOM changed format after MLG Providence, they SHOULD still tell everyone (MLG, foreign fans, players) involved that changing the format affects the Code S spot that was originally supposed to go to the top 3 non-code S player that the format is changed and that they would not win code S at providence. However, since they are changing an agreement AFTER the agreement has been fulfilled on the other end, this is even more blatantly unprofessional. In fact, this can even be considered a bait and switch which is illegal.
3. Now, the other issue is did MLG fulfill their end of the bargain. From what I have seen the answer is yes. At every MLG koreans were funded and seeded into pool play. At Providence since there is no pool play, any koreans that come are seeded to the merits of their previous accomplishments at previous MLG's. This does not break any rules as we have come to know them as stipulated by the exchange program.
Therefore, by all accounts and purposes GOM is acting unilaterally here by being unprofessional: they never informed their partner MLG about the change in code S status, nor the foreign fans, nor the players.
This is hypocritical because they are punishing Naniwa for being unprofessional.
I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not the case. 1. GOM changed format before MLG Providence, and told everyone 2. "MLG will invite four Korean pro players to each Pro Circuit Live Competition. These players will be placed directly into the Championship Pools, one into each Pool." Are you telling me that this happened? GOM did not tell everyone. Otherwise Naniwa wouldn't have thought he had a code S spot they day he was interviewed at the blizzard cup. Nor would MLG make this statement that they thought a S spot still existed. Please stop quoting and replying with this until you link something to the effect of GOM informing the communities involved. GOM's announcement of new format for 2012 http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=208740 Nowhere does that state that Providence will no longer reward code S. There is no mention of MLG, and you just assume that it would be there? Of course people would assume they would be there, because MLG did!!! Neither MLG nor GSL stated anywhere that there was no GSL code S seed. And in fact MLG stated on many occasions that there was, so why would anyone question it? You believed what MLG told you and it turned out to be not true. Clearly, GSL must be held responsible.
No-no! I never said that!
I actually made a post a while back saying there is a chance this could even be MLG's fault. But either way, the discussion is a stand-still until there is any further news or new insight.
I'm sure we can all agree on that at least. (which is why I was surprised to see you still posting about how GSL announced the change to foreigners, which they clearly didn't, besides that one image announcing their format.)
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On December 17 2011 01:01 Fjodorov wrote:
According to NHY the whole world should know that this "it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement." is a part of MLG/GOMs contract. Come on...
I guess you believe that we all must know that "MLG/GSL contract can never be changed"?
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EPT
