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On December 15 2011 04:32 ffadicted wrote:
This thread is completely right.
IMO, if you want to do shit like this, have it written down, make a rule about, something like if gom suspects someone threw a game, they'll investigate, and actually have a proper punishment layed out depending on severity and what it leads to (like losing your spot in GSL)... don't get mad one day and decide to come up with a random punishment of banning someone for a rule that doesn't really exist because you disagree with his opinions and culture.
That way, even if naniwa thought it was stupid, at least he'd know the consequences beforehand. Coming up with rules and laws after incidents is fine, but they should never apply to the incident that caused them to be made, that is just common sense, you can't convict someone due to a law that you come up with mid-trial in court. As for the validity of the game, why are you forcing him to play anyway GOM? Should all 7 games of a bo7 be played even after someone has won 4? In AoL and Up/Down, do you play the meaningless games? No, both of those are stupid concepts, as is the concept of the entire Naniwa vs. Nestea match. How could you honestly expect them to take it seriously?
And how come nobody ever cared when idra threw those games away against MC at MLG? The stupid 6 pool comes to mind. And those actually mattered. Or when Stephano did it in Dreamhack? Because those strategies had a "chance" of winning, even if the player didn't give a fuck? So all of you just want to be lied to so that everything stays the perfect little way you want it to? That train of thought is really scary to me, I can't believe people can think like that. And if you claim it's supposed to be a showmatch/grudgematch/whatever, what about when Nestea said Huk tried too hard/cared too much in their showmatch and too it too seriously?
To me it just seems like a bunch of hypocritical decisions and words being spoken out of pure emotional response. I'm fine with you not agreeing with what naniwa did. I'm fine with you not liking naniwa. But what I'm not fine with is the punishment, the random rules that pop up after-the-fact, and the ban.
I honestly don't understand anyone who does agree, but I have a feeling emotion and bias due to not liking the guy is clearly surpassing logic.
Well said this is exactly how I see it. No one knew the consequences before this. All this will do is make people that play in the GSL fear the GSL. If for whatever reason they do decide that your 6 pool is something they do not like then you could be thrown out. It is good business practice to have all these things clear cut and worked out to cover your own butt before hand, not to make them up on the fly.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496
Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go.
- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
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On December 15 2011 04:36 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:33 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way. Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game. And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals? Waste what time in the game? I'm not stating anything from thin air. It's really simple. Naniwa threw the game way by throwing probes and no micro no nothing. Literally gave the game away to nestea. That would be the equivalent of an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling and literally giving the game away to opposing team.
Stop compareing it to a sport that in no way can be compare to this situation pls... There is always ALWAYS money to play for in NFL each match, they dont play for nothing.
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"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer"
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession.
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Discussion should just end here. Break the rules --> receive punishment.
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On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does.
Not giving 100% during the last game because you don't want to injure players doesn't mean showing up on the field in sweatpants and play tag with the cheerleaders. They still play the game, and play every minutes of that game. They have fans who come to watch the game, and paid for the game. Then, you would tell me ''B B But why pay for the last game then,when you know that noone will be playing the game seriously?'' well, many fans aren't even loyal to the actual players, they are loyal to the team. They come to watch the team play, not to see the team play with all their big guns all the time. Not playing the game will be taken as an insult to the fans and the managers, no matter if it's the last game or the finals game.
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No worse than MLG's arbitrary rules about Korean invites.
They literally just sit around and discuss what Koreans would be cool to have in a tournament. That's how players like Boxer, Nada and MMA where invited. And everyone, particularly the audience, benefitted from it.
GSL and MLG have it right. At the end of the day, they are a business that caters to fans, not players -- their viewership and sponsors play the bills. Whatever is going to produce the most entertaining product is the highest priority.
Look at an organization like NASL -- which, on paper, is 'an ideal' and fair tournament structure that rewards the most consistent players. The viewing experience it produces is pretty average and repetitive.
While it's important to be 'fair', it's more important to be good.
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"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET.
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On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession.
there you said it yourself. meaningless or not, at least don't throw the game and make a mockery of it.
And no there is no cultural disconnect. What are you kids like 12? It's called taking pride in your profession.
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On December 15 2011 04:47 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. Not giving 100% during the last game because you don't want to injure players doesn't mean showing up on the field in sweatpants and play tag with the cheerleaders. They still play the game, and play every minutes of that game. They have fans who come to watch the game, and paid for the game. Then, you would tell me ''B B But why pay for the last game then,when you know that noone will be playing the game seriously?'' well, many fans aren't even loyal to the actual players, they are loyal to the team. They come to watch the team play, not to see the team play with all their big guns all the time. Not playing the game will be taken as an insult to the fans and the managers, no matter if it's the last game or the finals game.
someone gets it.
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On December 14 2011 21:06 bubblegumbo wrote:
You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job.
Wow. Someone who's rational and understands that when people give you the opportunity to make money, it's not unreasonable of them to, you know, expect some standard of conduct in return. I think I'm in love.
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On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:Show nested quote +
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET.
Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2).
These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw.
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On December 15 2011 04:25 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:20 ForeverSleep wrote:On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view. FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Just because they don't do it in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else (as you example would make it believe). Therefore, find a better example... That was the point, that people don't force their culture everywhere so it's not like its a must to understand the koreans. And I don't want to change my morality based on the timezone.
If you are to live somewhere, it is however implied that you should follow A MINIMUM of their culture, if you intend to live there for even 3 days. It's not because they do not force you to follow their culture that you must live there as if it is the US (or whatever place you live). People will expect actions out of you. even if you are a tourist. As such, they don't expect you to live as one of them. Hell, they probably don't even take you as one of them. However, they expect you to respect some of the important parts in their culture. As it happens, integrity at work and respect to the to people is VERY important in Korea, and throwing a game like that is actually taken a an offence to at least that part of their culture.
Then again, this isn't a question of culture IMO. Pretty sure that it is considered an insult not to show up for a game, where ever you might be. That even goes for college soccer game, btw, where the tickets are free and the players aren't payed...
There might not be a lot of people in the Gom studio, and some people might even be watching the freaking free stream and not paying one buck, but the problem is, the people in the studio moved to go see those games, people who watch the free stream dropped whatever they were doing to watch (some of you at a time like 4 AM because you live somewhere far from Korea). Is it really good to waste their time like that?
EDIT, added some stuff
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I agree completely.
GOM kicks Naniwa out before ever stating he's not allowed to do what he got kicked for.
Then GOM tells Naniwa he's being unprofessional? Come on.
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Why does it seem like this post is about 2 totally different things? Anyway, Koreans always overreact to anything that happens on their home turf. I'm sure the Koreans would of kicked Naniwa out after his GSL match in which he didn't GG out if they could of made up a reason. Now with this new incident Koreans are just going crazy so Gom of course has to kick Naniwa out purely based on Korean netizen rage.
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On December 15 2011 04:56 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2). These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw.
LOL anyone who says naniwa's match was menaingless is obvious ignorant of the current situation. had naniwa played a regular game to entertain his fans (even a carrier rush) then he would be is code S. he threw the game, now he's not in code S. sounds like the game meant alot after all eh?
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On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294943
I suppose that is what Mr Chae expects out of pro-gamers.
As far as midconduct goes, I'd say that making the tournament that gave you a time slot, and an opportunity to showcase yourself as a gamer look bad is pretty disrespectful. Naniwa should abide by the tournament format and rules if hes planning to participate rather than throwing a tantrum and trying to make a point during a match. What he did was immature and short-sighted and he should have expected some sort of reprecussion with GOMs past dealings with this sort of thing (choya). I doubt he would have probe rushed if he was in a position to move onto the next round and didn't need a win.
GOM has nothing to appologize for as their format was announced beforehand. The players implicitly agree to abiding by the rules and format by participating in the tournament in the first place.
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On December 15 2011 05:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:56 Timerly wrote:On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2). These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw. LOL anyone who says naniwa's match was menaingless is obvious ignorant of the current situation. had naniwa played a regular game to entertain his fans (even a carrier rush) then he would be is code S. he threw the game, now he's not in code S. sounds like the game meant alot after all eh?
No one including naniwa would have expected his spot revoked.
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A strict specific rule system on how to qualify will be the first step towards GSL attracting a sustained foreign player attention.
A specific, and static, rule system on how the tournament works and how disputes are resolved will be necessary in the long run to sustain the potential interest of foreign players in the GSL. Foreign players cannot be expected to make the enormous sacrifices necessary without a fixed (or at least perceived reliable, realistically non-arbitrary) framework in place for them to practice their profession. Putting such a framework in place will yield enormous benefits for both Gretec Corp. and the prestige of the GSL.
On a sidenote: What really infuriated me about this whole debacle, besides the obviously outrageous punishment enacted (I did and I do agree Naniwa needed some form of reprimand, but this..), was the aforementioned Korean netizenry reaction, which really showed how malicious, pretentious and dim these supposedly respectful ( / respectable) people were. I've scarcely been so disappointed in any group of people. The moment someone gave the OK, they turned from civilised people to a barbarians with no self-restraint or concept of conscience. Or empathy for that matter. Mob of mongrels determined to kick the shit out of the guy on the ground. MKP of all people.. ChoyafOu... The supposed Real Professionals of progaming indeed. Teaching us all a lesson in the Korean concept of respectfulness.
(sorry for the harsh language in the latter part, but I do think this opinion needs to be stated, with some underlining)
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That's the thing. He wouldn't of because he would have a position to frigging win.
We're going in circles.
There was nothing to showcase when both players are out.
The rule in question was never established before and like I said, it's up for interpretation because its so vague. Practically anything can be viewed as offensive or abusive. It doesn't even have to effect the player. It only has to annoy the spectator as they put it.
You know what punishment I would have given him if any? Forfeit his prize money. There you go. Don't want to play, then no prize money.
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EPT
