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We are still in the seat we were a year ago and GSL seems less and less professional and more and more desperate to get foreigners. Alot of players go there, compete in code a, qualify for next months tournament and then leave.. it seems like theres no planning from GSL at all.
Except that this is beyond GOM's control. Players choose whether to say in Korea or not, not GOM. If a player accepts a spot, but then decides to leave due to culture shock, or just not having enough money to stay, or whatever, that's not GOM's fault. That is simply beyond their control.
Now gom have invented a rule that lets them kick out Naniwa because they say he only wants money, and is not professional. This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game.
First, no rule was "invented." They use existing rules to decide this; they have the right to choose, and they exercised that right. Whether you agree with the reasoning or not,
As for the "nothing to do with what happened in the game," please explain the definition of "professional" that includes "obviously and deliberately throwing a game away". Or the definition of "not professional" that doesn't include "obviously and deliberately throwing a game away".
Even better, name a sport when a team wouldn't be fined/punished by its league for standing around and letting the opposing team score at will. Notice that this never happens in real sports. Even in the final regular season game between teams that know they aren't going to the playoffs. Sure, they may not play their A-team members for very long. But they still are out there trying to score and preventing the opposing team from scoring. They may not be playing their best, but they are playing.
What Naniwa did was not playing. He may as well have just sat there and GG'd once the time limit on that expired. What he did had zero chance of winning unless his opponent had an aneurism at the keyboard or was a Bronze-level player.
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example
Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view.
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I still don't get it.
Basically this happened:
GOM:"Naniwa, we would like you to play Nestea. It might not matter, but we'd still like you to play versus him"
Naniwa:" Go fuck yourself, GOM
GOM:"Ok, next time we need someone to play a game, we will ask someone else"
Seems fairly reasonable from GOM
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OP you are jsut raging because naniwa got kicked out of code S january. But he got what was deserved, end of story, life goes on. GOM did the right move by making an example of him. From now on people will not throw a game like that in a GOM tourny.
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
Professional athletes do disrespectful things to other players all the time especially in the world of sport.
Soccer/Football anyone?
Not in my House?
Cannot be ignorant of other cultures, especially when SC2 is a global sport now. BW was never there and that's where there has to be some leniency.
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On December 15 2011 04:00 HoodedAvatar wrote:
OP you are jsut raging because naniwa got kicked out of code S january. But he got what was deserved, end of story, life goes on. GOM did the right move by making an example of him. From now on people will not throw a game like that in a GOM tourny.
Yeah, we will see from now on how good actors the players are.
People claiming the Naniwa vs Nestea in that context mattered and would have delivered a real showmatch are delusional .
It was like asking them to do interviews after a loss.
-Hey Nestea, Naniwa, i know you both lost 0-3, pretty humiliating BTW, but could you please try and play 100% next game? thx
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
Because he wants to play in the most prestigious sc2 league there is. and it just happens that you need to be in Korea for that. Seriously, Naniwa was clearly frustrated after losing three games that way and just let of his steam by doing what he did in his fourth game, not realizing that it would offend some people (inside Korea and out). Hence he got a quick slap onto the back of his hands by gom (by withdrawing an invitation), but it is nothing serious. In the future,
I hope Naniwa will be more sensible to possible reactions to his actions, while he continues his way up the GSL. He need to realize that people don't just see him as a incredibly good player, but that they also as an ideal of a non-Korean progamer and that people expect him to uphold a certain level of sportsmanship for that.
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On December 14 2011 20:18 greatboy wrote:
OP from Sweden.
Disagree.
On December 14 2011 20:21 Mojar wrote:
Your bias is showing. He deserved it.
pretty much what these two said
it's not that koreans dislike foreigners, its that this is their tournament, on their ground, with their rules, if we don't want to follow their rules (no matter how silly we think they are) then we can go back to the broodwar era of foreigners being completely divided against koreans
naniwa's lucky that they didn't ban him from the GSL
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On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player?
If Naniwa saw it as a profession, then he would not have acted as he did. He sees himself as a contractor, there to do a job: win the prize. If a prize is no longer possible, he's going to get out of it ASAP.
A professional player has respect for the audience. A contractor does not. A contractor wants the cash prize; a professional player wants the cash as well, but they also respect the audience enough to give them a good show, even when it doesn't matter for getting the prize.
GOM is enforcing a standard of professionalism on players. That's all. This is the same standard that anyone competing in an actual sport would be expected to uphold: you play the game. Whether it matters or not, you put people on the field and you make some kind of effort. You don't stand there and let the opponent win.
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To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now.
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career.
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game
That's completely your opinion. Not fact.
it's my opinion that I applaud them because I'm sick to fucking death of the community putting up with such a piss poor standard for our players and professionals.
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On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career.
So what?
I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill.
And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie.
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On December 15 2011 04:10 Timerly wrote:
To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now.
You need a rule to state the obvious? You need a rule to say, "You need to play in a sportsman-like fashion"? Isn't that obvious by the fact that you're a professional gamer?
If Naniwa needs a specific rule to spell out what "be professional" means, then that says more about him as a player than GOM.
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On December 15 2011 04:00 Lann555 wrote:
I still don't get it.
Basically this happened:
GOM:"Naniwa, we would like you to play Nestea. It might not matter, but we'd still like you to play versus him"
Naniwa:" Go fuck yourself, GOM
GOM:"Ok, next time we need someone to play a game, we will ask someone else"
Seems fairly reasonable from GOM
Naniwa wasn't asked to come to this tournament he earned his spot.
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Better than KESPA. =) 
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On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie.
Wrong.
I'm from america born and raised.
NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries.
But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game.
NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not.
And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance.
Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill.
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If GOM becomes a FIDE, I will cry.
At this point, far from it.
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Yes the arbitrary rules are not good. If people can buy their way into code A and code S, or the company can just play favorites on who participates in then the credibility will soon start to dwindle. There is a lot of things being said right now about GOM, good and bad, and most of it is based off of feelings and knee jerk reactions, however when people look at things objectively without emotions fogging their way things are a lot different.
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regarding the invites, they needed to me vague, because they wanted good non-Korean players in the GSL and this is the only way they can do it (plenty good players don't even participate in the MLG and a good chunk of the good players participating in the MLG don't care for Code A).
regarding the naniwa incident, the rules are vague because you cannot make crisp rules defining what is morally acceptable and what not. What is good and what is bad sportsmanship. And gom wants to uphold a certain level of sportsmanship in their event, which I like a lot.
Whether this becomes a problem... no, as long as they don't misuse the power they get from those vague rules and I don't see that time coming in anytime soon. Their financial situation isn't that good, I think, hence they really want to please the fans, which gives the communities a certain level of control over them. (at least I hope so)
does this answer the questions?
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EPT
